[Abyss]

YAY - thanks muchly to Hetan for posting this!

[The Dark Wanderer]

Damn you Abyss. Locking a thread as I try to post!

Anyways.....

Starting at the beginning, suspect that we've know seen the arrival of the Stormriders in the Elder Age. Makes sense given what else we know about them and the rest of the book.

I think that the goddess, 'The Lady', is an incarnation of Burn given size, protecting of land, and the fact that she's very very hot. Suggests that the Wall is some manifestation of Burn herself which would be just weird.

Ex-priests of Fener seem to get around a bit.

Gheven, the travelling tribesman seems interesting to me and the idea that the tribes are still hating the invaders before the Malazans suggests there's some good old fashioned history there to be exploited. Possible tying back into the building of the Wall and the tribes mentioned there. Also Assessors? Was the guy in RG not a Senior Assessor or just coincidence?

[Aptorian]

You closed that thread just to snub my discussion post, didn't you cat?

Well, here it is again:

Okay, so lets get the discussions and crazy theories under way.

"The Lady" that gave the wall to the occupants of "The many isles/the empty isles". From the size and description of the skin it sounds like it could be Killy. But, from what we understand from Reapers Gale, this should not be possible. The wall is apparently not much older than 5000 years give or take. Killy has been stuck in an Azath for over 300,000 years.

Or has she? Is this something like our theory about Draconus appearing outside Dragnipur? Or Osserc being around and about even though his physical form was sleeping? Could she be manifesting outside of the Sea Azath?

Since the god seems distinctly female other candidates would be Olar Ethil. Mowri. Neruse...Burn herself? I like the idea that it could be Burn. I would like it if she showed up in the literature.

The old guy talking with the Assessor, Gheven, did anyone else suspect that it was actually Kelanved on a walk about? But then he began talking about ancient stuff and connections with the land, which makes me assume that he is either a Nameless One working for an Azath or someone or something far, far older.

Who do you think the ex-Fener priest is and what is his angle? From his talk of his God it sounds like he is a Priest of the Crippled God, but he seems all to nice to be a worshipper of the CG. You don't suppose that the Itkovians legend has reached that far yet, or do we?

EDIT: Oh and... Whooooooo prologue, thank you Hetan.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 30 June 2010 - 05:48 PM

[Aptorian]

The Dark Wanderer, on 30 June 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

I think that the goddess, 'The Lady', is an incarnation of Burn given size, protecting of land, and the fact that she's very very hot. Suggests that the Wall is some manifestation of Burn herself which would be just weird.

Oh, I'd completely over looked the "hot" part. Yeah, draging a hot stone across the earth, does work well with the Burn theory.

Here's a curious question then. If, like you suggest, the Wall is a manifestation of Burn, will the wall weaken or crumble as Burns health deteriorates? That would be a cool plot point.

The Dark Wanderer, on 30 June 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

Also Assessors? Was the guy in RG not a Senior Assessor or just coincidence?

That guy was a member of a cult that worshipped Icarium.

Assessor is not a unique title. I think the title would pop up many places in any civilization.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Nah Apt, the ex-priest of Fener is clearly a priest of the CG. He talks to the mixed blood about how his God reaches to the shunned and tell them to accept themselves because everyone is imperfect. Seems pretty much standard CG's philosophy. Also in the end he thinks to use the beggars as an army. Sorts of.

As for Gheven I agree that his last thoughts make him seem as an old guy/entity. It would be interesting to know how old is the Kingdom of Rool. From the Assessor's and Lieutenant's reaction the Roolians seem to have forgotten that they're not originally from Fist, although it could just be nationalism and anti-Malazan propaganda.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 30 June 2010 - 05:55 PM

[champ]

cant post much on my phone but anyone think the very start, the tidal wave with the green cast, something to do with jade giant? Wild speculation... that the sea riders come from the same realm

[Abalieno]

Any mention of wordcount about this book? Can someone give an idea (like Hetan, if advance copies are being sent out)?

[Aptorian]

champooon, on 30 June 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

cant post much on my phone but anyone think the very start, the tidal wave with the green cast, something to do with jade giant? Wild speculation... that the sea riders come from the same realm

I assume that what we watched was the fall of the cripple god. Jade chunks and Burning flesh. That was who the screaming was coming from.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on 30 June 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

champooon, on 30 June 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

cant post much on my phone but anyone think the very start, the tidal wave with the green cast, something to do with jade giant? Wild speculation... that the sea riders come from the same realm

I assume that what we watched was the fall of the cripple god. Jade chunks and Burning flesh. That was who the screaming was coming from.

I figured it was the CG falling as well. Don't see that there would have to be any Jade giants or pieces, really, the CG did come down in pieces. I liked how there was distinct reference of pieces falling both in the east and the west, which will probably lead to even more Jacuruku geography confusion...

[Aptorian]

D, on 30 June 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 30 June 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

champooon, on 30 June 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

cant post much on my phone but anyone think the very start, the tidal wave with the green cast, something to do with jade giant? Wild speculation... that the sea riders come from the same realm

I assume that what we watched was the fall of the cripple god. Jade chunks and Burning flesh. That was who the screaming was coming from.

I figured it was the CG falling as well. Don't see that there would have to be any Jade giants or pieces, really, the CG did come down in pieces. I liked how there was distinct reference of pieces falling both in the east and the west, which will probably lead to even more Jacuruku geography confusion...

Jade flashed, a sickening green, etc. are mentioned in the passage. I assume that there was Jade in the fall since it seems to be an integral part of the CG dimension.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on 30 June 2010 - 07:09 PM, said:

D, on 30 June 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 30 June 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

champooon, on 30 June 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

cant post much on my phone but anyone think the very start, the tidal wave with the green cast, something to do with jade giant? Wild speculation... that the sea riders come from the same realm

I assume that what we watched was the fall of the cripple god. Jade chunks and Burning flesh. That was who the screaming was coming from.

I figured it was the CG falling as well. Don't see that there would have to be any Jade giants or pieces, really, the CG did come down in pieces. I liked how there was distinct reference of pieces falling both in the east and the west, which will probably lead to even more Jacuruku geography confusion...

Jade flashed, a sickening green, etc. are mentioned in the passage. I assume that there was Jade in the fall since it seems to be an integral part of the CG dimension.

Yeah I wrote that all wrong. What I mean is, I don't think the jade has to be Jade Statues like the ones from Otataral island or that fall through the sky in tBH or DoD. Just like the rain in the TtH prologue or the eyes of the spirit Baruk summons, it could be a different sort of jade (or the same jade aspect in a different sense).

[Abyss]

The Dark Wanderer, on 30 June 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

Damn you Abyss. Locking a thread as I try to post!

Mwa. Hah. Ha.

And preventing past errors. Prologue posts tend to turn into extended discussions meaning anyone who wants to read just the prologue still has to open the page with all the replies.

Aptorian, on 30 June 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

You closed that thread just to snub my discussion post, didn't you cat?

Actually yes, that too.

ULI and THE FALL

I'm pretty sure that first segment was the Fall, CG dropping and all.

Kingdon of Rool - i suspect is only a Kingdom in the loosest sense, in the way the Imass First Empire was a loose collection of nomadic tribes. Uli only seemed slightly 'civilized'.



TEMAL AND CO in the second segment harken back to that discussion between Lieutenants in RG that described 'invaders' who came to Jacuruku.

Interesting refs there...

"Dark Avallithal with its haunted woods..." Linki to Drft 'Avalii?

"nor the brooding Isles of Malassa." ..precursor to Malaz Isle?


I say the goddess was Kila, and I'm wondering whether whatever was in the box was tied to the Stormriders.
Ie, for whatever reason, she's holding what they are pursuing.

The 'heat' came from the box, not Kila, so i'm doubting the Burn link.


THE ASSESSOR isn't likely linked to the Sr Assessor from the Iccy Cult. far be it for me to invoke the Timeline, but that segment was after the Malazan Imvasion and the Iccy Cult was WAY older as far as we could tell.

Totally interesting bit there about honour killings being blamed on the Malazan occupiers.

Interesting suggestion of a conflict between the CG cult and Kila's worshippers.



THE PRIEST is totally a CG priest and it makes sense for the CG to be pilfering Fener's no doubt disillusioned ex-priesthood. As a complete aside, i note ICE using 'toadlike', which SE uses repeatedly to describe our other ex priest of Fener, Heboric, more than once. Hoping maybe that's not a coincidence...

Funny thing is for a priest of the CG, i really liked what we saw of this character.


OVERALL, i'm liking what i'm seeing so far. In a farily short bit ICE gave us some neat new details about a fairly unseen continent, a few interesting hints about what's in store, and only one instance of "greasy tresses"

- Abyss, anticipates.

[Aptorian]

D, on 30 June 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

Yeah I wrote that all wrong. What I mean is, I don't think the jade has to be Jade Statues like the ones from Otataral island or that fall through the sky in tBH or DoD. Just like the rain in the TtH prologue or the eyes of the spirit Baruk summons, it could be a different sort of jade (or the same jade aspect in a different sense).

On this I agree. I don't think it is related to the falling statues either. I connected it with the jade rain as well.

Abyss, on 30 June 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

"Dark Avallithal with its haunted woods..." Linki to Drft 'Avalii?

I was wondering about that as well.

It would be interesting to learn more about this. It's a forum theory that Drift Avalii is a floating KCCM skykeep or something similar, but what if it was once a landmass. And what if it was once a part of something bigger? Does this have an impact on our theories on who or what sleeps under the island?

I can't help remembering that old early X-men story where the new team freshly assembled go to fight a living island.

Abyss, on 30 June 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

Interesting suggestion of a conflict between the CG cult and Kila's worshippers.

This would be interesting. But that is assuming that it is Killy.

Instead, imagining that it is Burn, such a conflict become even more important.

Followers of Burn should logically hate the CG followers with religious intensity.

Abyss, on 30 June 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

THE PRIEST is totally a CG priest and it makes sense for the CG to be pilfering Fener's no doubt disillusioned ex-priesthood. As a complete aside, i note ICE using 'toadlike', which SE uses repeatedly to describe our other ex priest of Fener, Heboric, more than once. Hoping maybe that's not a coincidence...

Funny thing is for a priest of the CG, i really liked what we saw of this character.

I was thinking of Heboric as well, but the color of the tattoos and his possession of actual hands makes me think it unlikely. As of DOD Heboric was a soul stuck floating in Chaos looking down on everything. That would be quite a change of circumstances.

[Knight of Darkness]

Quote

Interesting refs there...

"Dark Avallithal with its haunted woods..." Linki to Drft 'Avalii?

"nor the brooding Isles of Malassa." ..precursor to Malaz Isle?

Don't forget "nor the savage coast of Dhal-Horn" which could be Dal-Hon

[T'renn]

Yeah, well, they talk of the Horn of Dal Hon, so if that was where the name came from....

Avallithal and Malassa are almost certainly Avali and Malaz Isle, they traveled over the horn ocean.

The priest, almost definitely CG

The old commander they talked about, must have been greymane

[D'rek]

From the synopsis:

Quote

In Korel, Lord Protector Hiam, commander of the Stormguard, faces the potential annihilation of all that he loves as with the blood of his few remaining men and a crumbling stone wall that has seen better days, he labours to stave off the sea-borne Stormriders who would destroy his lands.

Meanwhile, religious war has broken out all across these lands as the local cult of the Blessed Lady, who has stood firm for millennia against the assaults of the Stormriders, seeks to stamp out all rivals; a champion refuses to stand against the alien 'Riders' and takes up arms in rebellion; and a local magistrate innocently pursuing the mystery of a series of murders is brought to the very heart of a far larger and far more terrifying ancient crime that has stained the entire subcontinent.

Even without this, I'd hardly be surprised if the Blessed Lady/Lady of Deliverance was a localized national religion. The crumbling stone wall makes me think that maybe there will be some plot about the CG through his priest(s) infesting Korel and undermining the Blessed Lady, who's diminishing power is what's causing the wall to weaken since it's a part of her.

And the local magistrate will of course be Bakune 20 years later and promoted to magistrate.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 30 June 2010 - 08:13 PM

[Abalieno]

nitpicking, before the tsunami shouldn't the boat get sucked seaward as water recedes before rising and rushing in? The process is described, the water level goes down, yet there seem no currents affecting the boat. I guess this would have added a much better dramatic effect.

Other complaints I'll keep for the blog

[Midnight]

Regarding the Priest (once of Fener, now of the Crippled God), my guess would be that he is Ipshank, the last Destriant to Fener (Heboric having been cast out before he could claim the title) and who served as a healer under Greymane (during which time he trained Noto Boil). Supposedly he vanished on the ice fields of Stratem.

This post has been edited by Midnight: 30 June 2010 - 09:46 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Thoughts:

Agreed, it's the Fall at the beginning.

The part about "Our Lady", relevant quotes:

Quote

The figure was gigantic, out of all proportion, twice the height of the Jaghut or other Elders he’d heard talk of, such as the Toblakai or Tarthinoe, and vaguely female with long greasy tresses hanging down to its waist, its thrusting bosom, and the dark tangle of hair at its crotch. Yet its flesh was repulsive: a pale dead fish, mottled, pocked by rotting open sores. The fetor almost made Temal faint. At the thing’s side rested a large block of black stone resembling a chest or an altar.

Quote

Take this, a most precious sarcophagus. Within rests flesh of my flesh.

Quote

Their Lady of Deliverance.

At first the description shouted out Forkrul Assail to me because of the height, hair, and the fact it was naked. Plus, the name just screams FA to me. Then, also, it was carrying a "sarcophagus", doesn't MT talk about FA who were buried underneath the city in an old FA crypt with sarcophagi in it, or were those Jaghut buildings and sarcophagi? Against it, however, it does mention "other Elders." Still, I won't abandon it as a possibility.

[MTS]

The sarcophagi under Letheras where Shurq and Harlest hang out were Jaghut sarcophagi with Forkrul Assail wards to prevent the T'lan Imass from preventing Jaghut souls entering the Ice Hold. By the way, it is interesting that Bugg said Jaghut souls go not to the realm of Death but to their Hold...

I'm not entirely sure what species this Lady is. Twice the height of a Jaghut or Toblakai? That's like fourteen feet if we assume the accuracy of the statement. Taller than them anyway, even if the evidence for their height is apparently hearsay. I'm not convinced it's an FA since the figure is 'vaguely female' when FA are decidedly androgynous from what we've seen. No 'thrusting bosoms' in our other female FA (although Killy does have pondering mammaries...). You also would have thought the extra joints would have warranted a mention, and if it was Jaghut you would also think that tusks would be mentioned. The name 'Lady of Deliverance' is a given title, not a name, so I'm unconvinced it connects to the FA that way either.