[Panador]

Hi

I've just started reading through the series again and now, 'armed' with the knowledge from the first time through something seemed a little weird to me.

How exactly or rather when was Quick Ben a High Priest of Shadow?
The origin of the name Bridgeburners is somewhat related to that. As far as I remember the name Bridgeburners was created after Whiskeyjack's squad finished hunting down Quick Ben (and of a sort Kalam) through... Raraku, was it?
Quick Ben seemed surprised etc. "what did you do to your men, something happened to you", to Whiskeyjack, something along the line, as well was "you have burned all bridges" or something, don't remember the exact words. Given those words I thought that this chapter was to tell us where the Bridgeburners started, including their name.

Am I wrong in that, were the Bridgeburners already called that, even before hunting down QB? Because that'd explain the thing I'm wondering about.

Let's assume it went the way I thought, the Bridgeburners, under that name, were created that day, with QB and Kalam a part of them.

In the Prolog Whiskeyjack and Fiddler are already mentioned as wearing the pin that declares them to be Bridgeburners. This takes place before Kellanved became Shadowthrone. QB was already with the Bridgeburners at that time.

So when did QB have time to be a High Priest of Shadowthrone, as a member of the Bridgeburners?


Let's even assume I'm wrong about the timeline, that the Bridgeburners were called that even before the episode in Raraku, hunting Quick Ben.

7-9 years time

Kellanvied 'dies' -> Shadowthrone becomes a god -> his cult grows and grows -> QB becomes an Acolyte -> QB becomes a High Priest -> QB is a High Priest for a time until he's fed up and burns his vestments -> some time, something happens -> the Bridgeburners find QB

Also, I don't think Kellanved became Shadowthrone immediately after he was 'killed', because then everyone with half brain could have figured out that Kellanved = Shadowthrone. Ruler of the biggest known empire of humankind, a powerful mage, dies and *pop* a new God appears.... huh.... so some time must have passed there was well.

For all this to happen 7 or 9 years seem an awfully short time, especially because QB and Kalam have to have been members of the Bridgeburners for this sense of comradeship to grow (also QB mentions himself and Trotts saving each other's life at least a couple times in the past) for I guess at least a year, probably more, so 6-8 years, or less.

And Shadowthrone, now having a different sense of time, as a god, didn't recognize his most hated ex-High priest after 1-3 years, anything about him, speech, manerism, sharp mind, anything?

Something about this just seems really weird, and it's even more strange because it's such an important part of the story at this point.

This post has been edited by Panador: 05 June 2010 - 01:19 PM

[HiddenOne]

I think you're right about this being when BBs got their name. They were chasing QB, but he was using another name - read origin story - And WJ didn;t want to lose the resource of QB, even if they could have finished the job, so a new name was needed per Malazan SOP. This didn't please command. Maybe they were called by the name, but they earned a new level of meaning. I also think QB was priest of Hood before he joined BBs, among other things.

It's been a while since my last re-read.

So now I wait for Old Guard lightning of correction to descend...

[worry]

I don't have your main answer, but Kellanved and Dancer were both gone/missing for two years (I think) before the events of Night of Knives...very few people knew of their return to Malaz Isle, and Laseen seemed to already be basically in charge of the empire. So the immediacy of their ascension wouldn't be too big a deal to the vast majority of even important players.

[Panador]

worrywort, on 05 June 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I don't have your main answer, but Kellanved and Dancer were both gone/missing for two years (I think) before the events of Night of Knives...very few people knew of their return to Malaz Isle, and Laseen seemed to already be basically in charge of the empire. So the immediacy of their ascension wouldn't be too big a deal to the vast majority of even important players.

Still, the rise of Shadowthrone took place after Laseen took the throne, right? So that does not really influence the timeline problem.

Unless (haven't read Night of Knives) Kellanved and Dancer actually ascended before their supposed assassination (Laseen just made it up so she could finally take the throne officially?) yet did not 'announce' their new personas Shadowthrone/Cotillion and already started gathering a priesthood (in some way, no idea how). Still, that would give the whole hunting QB thing, forming the Bridgeburners, the Bridgeburners becoming famous not much more than probably a year, and QB becoming a High Priest is not even in there.

Again, if I'm wrong and the Bridgeburners name was already in existence when the hunt took place that gives QB at least a few years to become an Acolyte and then a High Priest and then betray his god and then join the Bridgeburners. Not a lot of time, how those things go, ascension in a priesthood etc. but it'd make it seem reasonably possible.

Damn, what I forgot/just remembered - there was a cult of shadow before Shadowthrone (the Shadow High Priest that discounts Shadowthrone as a usurper, in Shaik's camp, the pedophile), so QB could already have been a High Priest of that cult before Shadowthrone, as a god, came into existence. But he had to have been a priest AFTER the prologue, in which "Bridgeburners" was mentioned. If QB had burned his vestments/betrayed the cult before Shadowthrone had ascended he would not have known/cared about QB I guess.

Wasn't QB also the high ranking guest that came to see Lostara Yil Shadowdance in her youth? Or am I mixing that up with Cotillion? That could also be a factor in this timeline mambo-jambo.

It all depends on when the name Bridgeburners came into existence. If the name existed before the Raraku QB hunt I find the line about burning bridges odd (I remembered that because I thought it so odd at the time, "ah, that's where the name's from").

This post has been edited by Panador: 05 June 2010 - 07:05 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

I've always just chalked it up as a GotMism, but i had forgotten that he was present at Lostara's Shadowdance (i believe you are correct as well with Dancer being there also). Oh well, ST does need a rival for his intellect, so if its a mistake, its one i can easily live with! Maybe ST by assuming the mantle of Shadow, inherited its "memories" of those who served Shadow? I don't know, pure stabs in the dark at this point for me....

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes, the priesthood existed and had several high priests long before kellenved ascended. delat was one of them. the name bridgeburners did not exist until kalam and quick join the malazans in raraku. they become instantly famous because the first BB's combat operation was the taking of g'danisban. done by 70 soldiers, a mage and an assassin. big league shit. after all this happens, its no long stretch to imagine that QB continues to play at being a priest of shadow. being a double agent, as it were, in kellenveds efforts to wipe out the cult, but never revealing that he is also a bridgeburner. the man is a wily bastard, and probably also a shapeshifter, though the nature of his shapeshifting is completely unknown

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 05 June 2010 - 09:20 PM

[Panador]

Hm k, makes sense, not sure on the 'priest of shadow while being a bridgeburner' thing though, just have a hard time buying that.
QB is definitely a shapeshifter, of some sort. For one, he has 'a whif of Soletaken about him' as someone mentioned, if I remember correctly because one of the seven was a Soletaken. Also, after he struck his deal and departed from Shadowthrone, ST yelled "Delat, you shape-shifting bastard!" after him.

[worry]

It's not that far-fetched, as QB and I suppose Kalam are definitely in the special missions wing of the BBs.

[Hood's Legacy]

worrywort, on 05 June 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

It's not that far-fetched, as QB and I suppose Kalam are definitely in the special missions wing of the BBs.

BBs - Spec Ops
QB and KM - Black Ops

[Panador]

KK, just reading through House of Chains again and read the part about Lostara Yil's shadow dancing and the visiting High Priest. Thinking back on it I thought that had been Cotillion, misremembered it.
It was QB, who at that time already was Bridgeburner, and the Emperor was still alive. He is also mentioned being a High Priest and he destroyed the Cult of Shadow, supposedly at the behest of the then still living Emperor. The Throne of Shadow is called the "Empty Throne".

So there was a Cult of Shadow then, worshipping Shadow even when it was unoccupied. QB was a High Priest in the Cult (how the hell he managed that... *shrug* Maybe one of this Twelve was a High Priest?) as well as a QB and destroyed the cult, and Kalam is also mentioned as being present there, a shadow in the attack.

Weird thing, when Cotillion meets Lostara Yil he also mentions being there, seeing her. When he was not yet a God. How does that work? Did that take place in the time Kellanved and Dancer were pretty much gone - remember someone mention this happens in NoK - and Surly was already running the show in secret and she gave the order?
Or did Cotillion somehow "watch" through the Azath?

Another thing, not related to this - Kalam, after buying his new knives, the heavy otataral-infused one and the other one, thinks of Cotillion, cursing him saying that he should have finished the job with the Crippled God, seeing as he had been there at the Last Chaining. ???
I always thought the last Chaining was at least hundreds of years ago. Cotillion being there as well, mortal or not, puts it a few years, at most decades in the past.

This post has been edited by Panador: 27 September 2010 - 03:09 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

when QB arrived to destroy the shadow cult, i think that both kalam and dancer were there as backup. it just makes better sense as a plan of action. send in two seven cities natives, one who will be welcomed with open arms, then spring the trap, except... oops, there's a shadow dancer in the temple too, but you'll never see him, only his rope. whether or not kalam and quick knew he was there is another matter

this is assuming that dancer was a shadow dancer before the night of his ascension to shadow, which is likely imo, as he and kellenved delved some pretty deep depths and being a shadow dancer would lend dancer even more power as a force of terror.

also, the last chaining is estimated to be around 100 yrs before pale, iirc. so dancers presence is only confusing in that all the gods and ascendants assembled either allowed, or didn't know he was present. unless dancer was already ascendant then which, while possible, is impossible to prove.

[HoosierDaddy]

"The Throne of Shadow is called the "Empty Throne".

That is very, very interesting. Can you give me the page number for it?

[Abyss]

@HD - not sure about the Empty Throne ref the but link between the Empty Hold and Meanas is made in MT, FW's second tile reading i vaguely recall.

Help me out here - in HoC doesn't either Lostara, Cotillion or Apsalar imply that aside from QB and Dancer, Dassem was also involved in that raid on Bidithal's rashan cult, or am i just mixmatching different things in my head?

- Abyss, headed out.

[Panador]

page 388 in the paperback

"She did not ask herself if she was happy or otherwise. Rashan's Empty Throne did not draw her faith as it did the other students."

Dancer being there... possible, althoug I don't think he'd be the guy for such an hands-on approach when he already put the very capable Kalam and QB on the job. But, yeah, possible still. Pretty sure he is/was a Shadow Dancer, maybe something he did to familiarize himself with Shadow or something.

I still can't see Dancer being at the Chaining if it was 100 years ago. He was still a Mortal at that time, I think we can assume around ~1164 Burn's Sleep he wouldn't have been older than ~50. He and Kellanved were mortals when they started building the Empire, even if both had been old by then etc. 100 years seems pretty much impossible seeing as a lot of other people who knew them, Laseen, Dujek etc. are still alive. It just doesn't fit the timeline.

---

The only other person mentioned in the whole cult raid thing besides Quick was Kalam, at least indicated. Could have been Dancer of course. Would actually make more sense that way, would explain Dancer also being there. But QB working with Dancer instead of Kalam on this job?
"Although not alone. The night of the killings, at the bell of the third hour - two past midnight - after the Song of Reeds, there had been another, hidden in the black clothes of an assassin..."

This post has been edited by Panador: 27 September 2010 - 11:31 PM

[Silk]

It was Dancer not Kalam at the cult raid.... he mentions it to Lostara that there was the 3 of them present.... QB, Lostara and Himself....

[Panador]

Silk, on 28 September 2010 - 08:35 AM, said:

It was Dancer not Kalam at the cult raid.... he mentions it to Lostara that there was the 3 of them present.... QB, Lostara and Himself....

I know he says he also was there. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was there in person, for all we know there was some way for him to watch via the Azath or whatever.
Him being there makes everything make sense, yes, but as I said, it would also be weird for him to be there.
Either QB worked with him instead of Kalam, which would be weird in itself.
Or he was there, unbeknownst to QB, for whatever reason backing him up or something.

Guess it's easier to assume he was there, either QB knew or he didn't, then all this makes sense.

But the thing with Cotillion being at the Chaining still doesn't make sense. We know there's life-prolonging alchemies in this world but I guess it's safe to assume they are expensive.
Afaik it's certain he was mortal without any special powers other than being a great assassin and possibly a Shadow Dancer even back then (there was a cult of Shadow, he might well have been a member of it at some point).
Kellanved ran some underground business before he started gathering people around him, Dancer and Dujek first iirc, they were all mortal, and worked on creating an empire.

I think we can assume that very few people enjoyed those alchemies, there are just too many alive and well who knew Kellanved and Dancer. Even if both of them or at least Dancer took those in the past and was in fact alive at the last Chaining.. why would he, a mortal among all those powerful people, take part in it?

This post has been edited by Panador: 28 September 2010 - 01:03 PM

[anothevilbadguy]

Panador, on 27 September 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

I always thought the last Chaining was at least hundreds of years ago. Cotillion being there as well, mortal or not, puts it a few years, at most decades in the past.

Before Dancer became a god he was at least a hundred. The empire is about hundred years old in GOTM, and Dancer was there from the start. So, practically he must have been at least 120 when he became a god, and most likely older. There are few reasons for this, living in the Deadhouse (and mucking about in the Azath in general), stated that the Empire had alchemies similar to the ones Kallor uses, and it seems that affinity for magic lengthens peoples life (e.g. Tattersail was 200 something, and was just quite powerful mage, almost certainly wasn't 'ascendent'). So, the age issue in this situation isn't really problem. Plus, you know the timeline in Malaz is a fluid thing.

[Hetan]

Abyss, on 27 September 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

@HD - not sure about the Empty Throne ref the but link between the Empty Hold and Meanas is made in MT, FW's second tile reading i vaguely recall.

Help me out here - in HoC doesn't either Lostara, Cotillion or Apsalar imply that aside from QB and Dancer, Dassem was also involved in that raid on Bidithal's rashan cult, or am i just mixmatching different things in my head?

- Abyss, headed out.

I see no connection between Meanas and the Empty Hold in that reading Abyss.
The Empty Hold is still the Empty Hold and Shadowthrone holds the throne of Meanas.
Neither was Dassem involved in that raid. You're muddling it up with the books that were burnt in the library at Y'Garat by Febryl perhaps?

Panador, on 27 September 2010 - 11:27 PM, said:

page 388 in the paperback

"She did not ask herself if she was happy or otherwise. Rashan's Empty Throne did not draw her faith as it did the other students."

This is not the Empty Throne that you think it is (queue the jedi mind trick joke)

Quote

Dancer being there... possible, althoug I don't think he'd be the guy for such an hands-on approach when he already put the very capable Kalam and QB on the job. But, yeah, possible still. Pretty sure he is/was a Shadow Dancer, maybe something he did to familiarize himself with Shadow or something.

It was Dancer who was there with QB and not Kalam and is quite clearly stated several times through the series. They were there at the behest of Kellanved to kill the cultists and Bidithal - and unfortunately QB let him live, which is one of the reasons why Shadowthrone was so pissed at him when they met up again in GotM, if you remember the line "It is you! Delat! you shape shifting bastard".

Quote

I still can't see Dancer being at the Chaining if it was 100 years ago. He was still a Mortal at that time, I think we can assume around ~1164 Burn's Sleep he wouldn't have been older than ~50. He and Kellanved were mortals when they started building the Empire, even if both had been old by then etc. 100 years seems pretty much impossible seeing as a lot of other people who knew them, Laseen, Dujek etc. are still alive. It just doesn't fit the timeline.

Not sure why you think the chaining was 100 years ago. We know that the last chaining happened not long before Dassem was "killed" at Y'Ghatan, probably within a couple of years of that event at most. Nok has some insight on this event.

---

Quote

The only other person mentioned in the whole cult raid thing besides Quick was Kalam, at least indicated. Could have been Dancer of course. Would actually make more sense that way, would explain Dancer also being there. But QB working with Dancer instead of Kalam on this job?
"Although not alone. The night of the killings, at the bell of the third hour - two past midnight - after the Song of Reeds, there had been another, hidden in the black clothes of an assassin..."

That one was Cotillion - the master assassin. The three who are mentioned as watching her dance was QB, Bidithal and Cotillion.

[Panador]

As for the Empty Throne - I know that there's the Empty Throne of Rashan, empty before Kellanved took it, and the Empty Hold of the... forgot the name, the huge giant a'hole god... -.- If it's not that, which others do you mean? Seperate Thrones for Rashan and High House Shadow? Don't think so, is it?
Wait, second, confused about Shadow/Rashan/Meanas right now, thinking about it again.

Kellanved took the First Throne of the T'lan Imass. This Empty Throne would still be the Throne of Shadow/Rashan, Empty before he and Cotillion took the realm. He's held 3 Thrones, the Shadow one, the Malazan one and the First Throne of the T'lan Imass.
Then there's still the Empty Hold of the E.... can't remember his name. (damn ahole, burn in hell). Something else "Empty"?

@Chaining - someone few posts up mentions it being 100 years ago. That's what the source of all this timeline controversy. I could see Cotillion and Kellanved being 100 years old etc. but everyone else as well? Surly, the Crusts, Dujek, don't know who else. All those people using those alchemies or whatever? Seems weird.
The problem still stands, if we went by 100 years ago, the Chaining. Dancer would have still been mortal then or only very, very recently a God, why would he be involved in the Chaining?

I very much do remember that scene, but you think that's the reason Shadowthrone is pissed at QB? Has that ever been stated officially? Seems a weird reason to be this pissed at him. Why not at Dancer who was also there? He could have just as easily killed Bidhital. I wish he'd done it.
Back then Bidhital was "only" a High Priest, as QB was, although under cover. I thought that grudge was Shadowthrone's slightly irrational (hey, he's ST) anger at QB for leaving his role as a High Priest and a follower of Shadow.

The Chaining being only a couple years ago makes sense for pretty much everything, except it seems weird that the CG recovered so fast from the Chaining and, it seems, pretty much immediately put his plans, the corruption etc. in motion. Unless we think that as a god that's just easily within his abilities.
You'd think that the Chaining would have also restricted him in a major way, otherwise chaining a mad god to the "root" of the world Burn, would seem kind of retarded.
Maybe that's the cost K'rul mentioned when he scolded Envy for not participating in the last Chaining?

This post has been edited by Panador: 28 September 2010 - 04:54 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

well 100 years was a very broad figure, based on all these things happening during the lifetime of the malazan empire. Hetan's figure should be considered more accurate.

also, you have to remember that the 'family' who lived in the deadhouse for a time included surly, dujek (just a boy at the time), nok, the crusts, dassem, kellenved and cotillion. they all got the benefit of the deadhouses longevity which makes it possible for them to be around 100 years old or more.