[HoosierDaddy]

There seems to be a disconnect between you being okay about someone not purchasing Dance when it comes out due to the broken "promises", and it not making the best-sellers list which you think would be "stupid." To me, those seem to be the same thing, but just on the micro and macro levels.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 05 June 2010 - 05:08 PM

[Aptorian]

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't get it.

It's turtles all the way down?
Teenage Mutant Ninja-Turtle Writers?
Squirtle?

[Slum]

@Salokinx

Dude, you're not going to sway anyone's opinion here. The fact of the matter is GRRM has decided to make himself a public figure, blogging about his life and giving everyone who is impatient with him fuel for his or her frustration. He is smarmy and annoying, practically seethes with anger when questioned about ADWD, and seemingly spends the bulk of his time working on and promoting everything but the next ASoIaF novel. Also, it seems to me that an author who puts himself in the public eye should expect to be met with a certain level of scrutiny and derision -- most public figures are. If he wanted to just stay off everyone's radar, live his life quietly, free from exposure, he could very well do that. But no, he does the opposite, really, he makes a point of being visible, telling everyone what he is doing, hawking his shitty miniatures and whatever lame-ass product he can muster.

I'm sorry, but yeah, I can honestly say that, from what I see of him online, I don't like the guy. I don't care how well or poorly his books do, and I don't give a wet shit if he doesn't care that I don't care. It's my prerogative to take the piss out of him if I want, because I think he is a douchebag and I'm not impressed with him or the pace at which he writes.

Your suggestion to judge the work and not its author is all well and good, but that's not really the world we live in. My opinion of an author, as a person, does influence whether or not I will choose to spend my money on his books. The less I know of someone, the less likely it is I will have a bad opinion of him or her. As it stands, I know enough about GRRM, how he acts and how he spends his time, to convince me not to buy anything he has to sell. That's just me. I'm allowed. Just like the OP is allowed to rant at GRRM's glacial writing pace and his blatant indifference to the continuance of his most popular work.

That's all I have to say.

[Aptorian]

H.D., on 05 June 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

I don't get it.

It's turtles all the way down?
Teenage Mutant Ninja-Turtle Writers?
Squirtle?

...What is one of the main characteristics of a turtle?

[HoosierDaddy]

Aptorian, on 05 June 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

H.D., on 05 June 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

I don't get it.

It's turtles all the way down?
Teenage Mutant Ninja-Turtle Writers?
Squirtle?

...What is one of the main characteristics of a turtle?

They are slow and yet somehow win races against animals with superior speed?

I'm assuming it has something to do with a shell. I still don't get it though. I'm dumb.

On topic, the whole "let's write scenes to show how badass my characters are" for that internet competition shows that he can put out a product in a jiffy (and added fuel to an already raging inferno). I'm thinking he's backed himself into a corner now with Dance, and doesn't know how to get out of it. No, not the knot thing, but the rising expectations of such a long delay between expected publishing date and actual date.

[SalokinX]

H.D., on 05 June 2010 - 05:07 PM, said:

There seems to be a disconnect between you being okay about someone not purchasing Dance when it comes out due to the broken "promises", and it not making the best-sellers list which you think would be "stupid." To me, those seem to be the same thing, but just on the micro and macro levels.

I believe I said that the kid who lost interest in the series didn't need to buy the book, not that you shouldn't buy it because he. the author, broke promises. I don't recall saying that not making into the best-seller's list being stupid, I do, however, recall saying that wishing ill in the book is stupid.

Slum, on 05 June 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

@Salokinx

Dude, you're not going to sway anyone's opinion here. The fact of the matter is GRRM has decided to make himself a public figure, blogging about his life and giving everyone who is impatient with him fuel for his or her frustration. He is smarmy and annoying, practically seethes with anger when questioned about ADWD, and seemingly spends the bulk of his time working on and promoting everything but the next ASoIaF novel. Also, it seems to me that an author who puts himself in the public eye should expect to be met with a certain level of scrutiny and derision -- most public figures are. If he wanted to just stay off everyone's radar, live his life quietly, free from exposure, he could very well do that. But no, he does the opposite, really, he makes a point of being visible, telling everyone what he is doing, hawking his shitty miniatures and whatever lame-ass product he can muster.

I'm sorry, but yeah, I can honestly say that, from what I see of him online, I don't like the guy. I don't care how well or poorly his books do, and I don't give a wet shit if he doesn't care that I don't care. It's my prerogative to take the piss out of him if I want, because I think he is a douchebag and I'm not impressed with him or the pace at which he writes.

Your suggestion to judge the work and not its author is all well and good, but that's not really the world we live in. My opinion of an author, as a person, does influence whether or not I will choose to spend my money on his books. The less I know of someone, the less likely it is I will have a bad opinion of him or her. As it stands, I know enough about GRRM, how he acts and how he spends his time, to convince me not to buy anything he has to sell. That's just me. I'm allowed. Just like the OP is allowed to rant at GRRM's glacial writing pace and his blatant indifference to the continuance of his most popular work.

That's all I have to say.

I would just like to ask why would the author's personality affect you in any way? He can be the devil himself writing. If the story is good, I'll shrug it off and buy it anyway. If President George W. Bush had come up with a brilliant idea that would benefit every one, everywhere, would you vote NO on it, go on protests, etc, just because he is a complete moron? Some people will, just for the hell of it, but I wouldn't. I like to keep creator and creation in two different cookie jars, to avoid mixing.

And I do agree you have a right to judge a book based on what you know about the author and that the OP has the right to rant, but I still think none of this should be done. If anything, you will miss out on a brilliant story...

A few years from now, if Martin's works ever makes as much popularity as Tolkien's, do you really thing anyone will care that he was an old, grumpy man? That his voice was weird? That his beard looked awful? That he took 5 years to write a book? That he took 10 years to write a book? No one will care, just like many people who like Tolkien's work don't know that he is from Africa? That he fought on World War 2?

The only reason he is being judged is because the series isn't done. When it finishes, no one will even remember he existed. All that will remain of him is a name to the creation. He will cease to be a person and be simply the writer of an extraordinary book, like Tolkien. The difference is that you are caught in the writing time still. Had you been born 20 years later, you would have fallen in love with the book, but that's not the case.

I'm just trying to say that hating the author may make sense no, but a few years from now, who cares how the author is? No one. All we want is to read the book and enjoy the story.

As you said, I wont sway anyone and - adding to that - I won't be swayed by anyone.

I'm on the minority side of the game (which basically means I'll always be wrong no matter how valid my points are), so I'll just quit right now and avoid the dragging. If you - and this includes everyone - feel the need to respond to any of my posts, do so, but I'll let you know right now I won't respond or even read it to avoid further unpleasant trade of opinions.

Cheers.

[polishgenius]

H.D., on 05 June 2010 - 06:26 PM, said:

On topic, the whole "let's write scenes to show how badass my characters are" for that internet competition shows that he can put out a product in a jiffy

Yeah, because a few lines for a throwaway gag and a novel in a bestselling and iconic series are totally the same thing.



I feel for GRRM, because he's the first author to really get the internet backlash of the instant gratification age. The only thing I think he did wrong was make claims to when the book would be finished, getting people's hopes up. Other than that, he's no different to many other writers.
It's easy enough to say that a writer should keep to their deadlines, but we all know (or should know) that's not the way it works, and while some writers can do it, others get writers block or whatever and can't. The fact that he writes about other stuff as well means nothing - I wouldn't expect him to write aSoIaF all day every day anyway. I'm fairly sure other writers, including those who are late with their books, do other stuff too, they just don't tell us about it.
And frankly the only people who can legitimately get annoyed in his failure of duty to them are the publishers, who have already given him money for the product. There seems to be an attitude that paying for what he's written is some kind of a contract with him for what he's yet to write, but the fact of the matter is we pay for the right to read the book. Everything else is a sense of entitlement that I don't think exists. I mean, don't get me wrong, people getting frustrated is understandable, but in a lot of people there's an attitude that he owes us it as quickly as possible. If he chucked it entirely that would be a different case because when publishing the first book of a series you are implying that you will finish it and the promise of more eventually is why we start, but he hasn't chucked it. He's just slogging.



The bottom line for me is this, though. I'm sure he could rush out a finished version very quickly. But it wouldn't be as good. A rush-job on a fix is why Feast was received the way it was. So I'd rather wait a while longer than get it now and have an inferior product for ever.

[HoosierDaddy]

Do you think the haters view it any other way than how I portrayed it? Thus, the "added fuel" line.

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on 05 June 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

H.D., on 05 June 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

I don't get it.

It's turtles all the way down?
Teenage Mutant Ninja-Turtle Writers?
Squirtle?

...What is one of the main characteristics of a turtle?

One out of every four is a party dude?

[Cobbles]

Slum, on 05 June 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

...the bulk of his ...

I lolz'd (I'm so immature)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Can we just drop the instant gratification slam from the conversation? Demanding the next book to come out a year after the last would be instant gratification. Being annoyed at a 4-5 year wait, in which several deadlines have been broken by entire years, is far from demanding instant gratification.

[Werthead]

By this point this argument has become a meme, and is about as beholden to logic and fact as one. It surprises me that people want to keep going over it again like Groundhog Day, only with less Bill Murray and laughs. But so be it.

Quote

Im just pissed he got my money for the 1st 3 books.
Its like he got his money, now we can all go fuck ourselves... like an online scam.

An online scam where you pay for 3 books and you get 3 books? THE BASTARD! How dare you get what you paid for? Jesus wept! THE HORROR!

Quote

And frankly the only people who can legitimately get annoyed in his failure of duty to them are the publishers, who have already given him money for the product.

They could, except that the publishers are fully in the loop on this and are editing, debating and discussing the book as progress has continued. To this end, the publishers are compliant in GRRM's slowness, rather than suffering from it in some fashion.

Quote

Can we just drop the instant gratification slam from the conversation? Demanding the next book to come out a year after the last would be instant gratification. Being annoyed at a 4-5 year wait, in which several deadlines have been broken by entire years, is far from demanding instant gratification.

I agree that the instant gratification line is deployed. GRRM did, after all, indicate that Book 5 'should' follow on from Book 4 (although not as a promise signed in his blood with his other hand on a First Edition of Lovecraft's Call of Cthulu*, as some people have suggested) after a year, and his failure to do that is indeed disappointing. However the notion that there were additional 'deadlines' that have been broken is questionable. Martin has several times given ideas for when he might be finished depending on the situation at the time, and has each time done so because fans have asked for a date, even if it was just a crazily optimistic best-guess. And when Martin gives a crazily optimistic best-guess and say it's a crazily optimistic best-guess, those people nod and immediately put it on their calendars as a cast-iron promise signed in his blood and sworn on a original Robert E. Howard manuscript* etc and freak their shit out when he misses it


* Martin is an atheist, so I had to substitute an appropriate holy book he'd revere.

[Grief]

Werthead, on 06 June 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

By this point this argument has become a meme, and is about as beholden to logic and fact as one. It surprises me that people want to keep going over it again like Groundhog Day, only with less Bill Murray and laughs. But so be it.

Quote

Im just pissed he got my money for the 1st 3 books.
Its like he got his money, now we can all go fuck ourselves... like an online scam.

An online scam where you pay for 3 books and you get 3 books? THE BASTARD! How dare you get what you paid for? Jesus wept! THE HORROR!

I can see his point actually. While he got what he paid for, he is paying for parts of a story, on the expectation that he will get the full story at some point. If he doesn't, it's a scam, because he's been sold an unfinished story, rather than the expected full story.

Quote

And frankly the only people who can legitimately get annoyed in his failure of duty to them are the publishers, who have already given him money for the product.

They could, except that the publishers are fully in the loop on this and are editing, debating and discussing the book as progress has continued. To this end, the publishers are compliant in GRRM's slowness, rather than suffering from it in some fashion.

Quote

Can we just drop the instant gratification slam from the conversation? Demanding the next book to come out a year after the last would be instant gratification. Being annoyed at a 4-5 year wait, in which several deadlines have been broken by entire years, is far from demanding instant gratification.

I agree that the instant gratification line is deployed. GRRM did, after all, indicate that Book 5 'should' follow on from Book 4 (although not as a promise signed in his blood with his other hand on a First Edition of Lovecraft's Call of Cthulu*, as some people have suggested) after a year, and his failure to do that is indeed disappointing. However the notion that there were additional 'deadlines' that have been broken is questionable. Martin has several times given ideas for when he might be finished depending on the situation at the time, and has each time done so because fans have asked for a date, even if it was just a crazily optimistic best-guess. And when Martin gives a crazily optimistic best-guess and say it's a crazily optimistic best-guess, those people nod and immediately put it on their calendars as a cast-iron promise signed in his blood and sworn on a original Robert E. Howard manuscript* etc and freak their shit out when he misses it


* Martin is an atheist, so I had to substitute an appropriate holy book he'd revere.

I think this is what it comes down to. I don't think the backlash is due to peoples wish for instant gratification-he's hardly the only author that slow. It's the fact that he has projected finish-dates, which he hasn't met, that I think annoys people. Aswell as this, people dislike the time he spends on other projects, because it slows down a book that they expected to be finished some time ago.

[MTS]

I agree with your last point Grief, but not the first. It's only a scam if you pay for the full story and then only get a part of said story. All people have paid for so far are the parts themselves in isolation. The expectation that the story will be completed is ancillary, and not related to the monetary cost of what you have received so far. You aren't paying for the expectation, you're paying for the book. There's no unwritten agreement signed between author and reader that demands he finish his series. If Brandon Sanderson had not taken up Jordan's mantle, calling this a scam would be akin to claiming Jordan scammed everyone by not completing the story. Also, the word 'scam' implies that GRRM is doing this on purpose so he can sit at his computer and laugh maniacally at how he punk'd millions of readers into giving a damn and then pissed all over them. Hardly what has actually happened. He's just decided to do other things, which is fine.

And honestly, after five years of this who really gives a shit anymore. The book will come out when it comes out. Read some other shit and get on with your lives already. We're only pissing the man off more by continuing the argument.

[Grief]

You're paying for the story. When I buy the first book of something being billed as a series, I expect the series to be finished, so that I can get the whole story. If a writer wrote on his books "You won't get to read the conclusion" then I know what i'm getting into, but when buying part of something described as a series, there is an expectation that you'll actually get to read the rest of the series. If it wasn't that way, then why wouldn't you wait till the series was finished before buying. When buying a book as part of the series, I trust that the author will at least try to finish it. Now, I accept that Martin is trying to finish the series, but with the side projects and stuff, as well as the deadline issues, I can see why people might feel a bit scammed.

Personally, i'm not particularly bothered. This is probably because I don't like the books that much, and certainly doubt I am as big a fan as the people who are angry about the time it's taking.

[MTS]

Wrong Grief - you're paying for the book, and that's it. The only problem is on your end, where you have this 'expectation' that he will finish the books, which is certainly fair enough, but it's not binding in any way, nor is it reason enough to castigate. Sure, the man has missed a deadline or two and works on other projects, but does that really constitute him scamming the readers? Fuck no. From what I can see it's just turned into a part-time thing instead of what was once full-time.

[Ulrik]

You are paying for books. Nothing more.

Otherwise, you can yell at GRRM (or someone else) that you paid for future books with better quality. Or you paid for story woth happy ending...or...Oh, I love to be demagogue...

I honestly hope that new ASoIaF will be "And they lived happily ever after. The end, yours GRRM"

Sorry mates. You have only one power...MONEY! Dont spend them. Dont buy his books. But dont babble things about his duty to finish story or something like that. Only publisher can do that. I suggest some hardcore Dune fans to dig poor Herbert and dishonour his remains, because he was lazy and died before finish.

Ulrik,

currently flaming ass from stupid flamewars, wishing GRRM long happy life withou ASoIaF, which I loved and which I really do not need to see finished. Because thats beauty of his books. I enjoy them again - without some supergloryficialubermassacring finish.

[Ulrik]

One more thing. Burn all producer that stopped your favourite show in the middle. Its your right! You paid for whole story! Or not...?

[Grief]

Is he scamming the readers? No, not unless he actually stops trying to write the books. Imo, he is then scamming the readers, because of how the books were presented-as part of a series which will be completed. Yes, the expectation for the author to finish the series is at my end. However, that expectation is caused by the actions of the author. I mean, just by calling something "Book one of a series" it is implied that you are going to write a sequel, and finish the story.

Would it be a scam for him to write a single book, that didn't come to a conclusion? No. It might be a crap book, and might feel like a waste of money, but no-one has been misled. Calling it a series, and then not trying to finish the series, is misleading to the people who have supported him by buying the books in the first place, with the expectation that the series would be completed.

He's missed deadlines, and appears to be focusing less on the series. So people get angry because they worry that they won't get the end of the series like they expected. As well as this, he gave them the expectation of the book within a certain time frame, and when he didn't manage this people got angrier.

The scam comparison was because Martin "got his money, now we can all go fuck ourselves". Now, while I wouldn't say its at this point unless he gives up on the series, it isn't hard to see why people see things this way, with him spending less time writing the books, and missing the deadlines etc, which people interpret as him being less bothered about finishing.