[SalokinX]

ansible, on 02 June 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

How is complaining about a book's completion date any different than complaining about the content of a book? If someone doesn't like Erikson's latest book, the standard reply is not (I hope), "Erikson is not your bitch; if you don't like the way he writes his books and the things that happen, don't read them." Regardless of whether a specific complaint has merit, I don't believe it's valid to classify all complaints about a certain topic as invalid.

Well, to start off, the content of a book has means to be judged, compared. If Martin or Erikson or any other author were to write an incredibly awesome series, it is only expected that next book in the series is of equal quality. Maybe a bit better or a bit worse, but for a book to go WAY off is not acceptable. Why? Because there is a pattern to be followed, and expectations to be met. Take Lost for example. An incredibly well done story that was thrown in the garbage with, simply, the WORST last season ever made by any TV Series I have bothered to watch. It broke the pattern of mystery and surprise and didn't come even NEAR my expectations. Expectations that was built and based on previous experiences with the same series. In other words, a valid expectation.

But, well, that's MY opinion. That's what a book content breaks down to: opinions. Writing time, on the other hand, is not so... malleable. It does NOT follow neither a pattern nor an expectation. You may say "well, Erikson writes a book every year, that's a patterns". Yes, I can't deny that, but what if he breaks his hand? If he is shot? What if he gets sick? There are many, MANY reasons for a writer to delay the publishing of his work. There are also people who write slowly (like Martin has said many times). Maybe he just got tired of writing and for now is just taking a break. Maybe he is sick (he's not the healthiest-looking 61-year-old), maybe his wife is sick, maybe he's having a serious case of writer's block, etc, many reasons for his delay.

And, if you would like to compare release dates anyway, you will see that Martin was never a speed writer: 2 years for the second book to be released, 2 for the third, and 5 for the fourth. So far we are 4 years waiting, which means that, if anything, he has another year to go.

So, you see, it IS different. Simply because the content of a book is fictional and event-less, whereas real life has many unexpected turns. A written book is immutable, whereas a writer writing a book has a life to live, specially such an old writer. You can't compare a human-being doing his work to a book, and that's really what it is.

So the only thing I can say is: control your instant-gratification and be glad Martin - or anyone else, for that matter - is still writing his books. He's got an HBO series coming up and I bet he will be either millionaire or as good as that, which means he doesn't have to bother publishing his books for us anymore.

Some people just don't know how to appreciate the good things in life and have to demand more and more of it. "Lend me your hand and I'll want your arm".

This post has been edited by SalokinX: 02 June 2010 - 09:11 PM

[QuickTidal]

HAhaha, Apt, I totally repped you for your awesomeness in this thread sir. You never fail to impress me.

[Illuyankas]

I would like him to finish it before I die. He is under no obligation to do this. Therefore I will read other things until he finishes it and treat the conclusion of the series as a bonus. If he doesn't, then clearly he doesn't like success, or his fans, but it's his decision to make.

[Paran]

haroos, a few links to help you through:

http://grrrm.livejournal.com/
http://krkreuk.livejournal.com/
http://www.iswinterc...g.proboards.com

And while I agree that he's not my bitch, I'm not his bitch, but believe he is a bitch, just not sure what kind...

Martin's reached the level of comfort where his merch etc is more than enough to provide a living, and he's probably written himself into a real problem by adding in all these other POV's WoT style to explore his world so that bring it back together has created this Gordian knot (arrogantly known as his Meereneese knot). Meh, I'll surely read it when it comes out, but my wallet will be speaking too.

[amphibian]

stone monkey, on 02 June 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

You people should think yourself lucky, I once waited for nearly 15 years to read the next book in a particular series. That wasn't fun.

I wasn't reading books like this when the series was started (as I was 3), but Gene Wolfe decided to write another Latro book about 15 years after the second was published. That was Soldier of Sidon (2006), which was a really nice book, although the previous book seemed to have a proper ending. The sad thing is that Soldier of Sidon had a sort of unresolved ending and there's really nothing more in the series mentioned as being in the pipeline (although I went out and bought the hardback, specifically to try and encourage more Latro writing).

Wolfe might have peaked as a writer between 1996 and 2006, with the Short Sun books, The Wizard Knight and the last Latro book. Pirate Freedom was lukewarm and I wasn't seized by the first chapters of The Sorceror's House (skipping An Evil Guest altogether). I'm not all up in his grill to get back to Latro or move onto something more filling, but I do hope he does so in the near future. I think the Martin fans should adopt a similar approach. Wait, hope and find something else to do with your time.

Like combat sports, amateur carpentry (especially lathe training) or at least learning how to be less creepy/more polite.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 03 June 2010 - 06:08 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

I have no opinion.

Apart from 'Wild Cards' is awesome. Like 'Soon I Will Be Invincible!' awesome.

[dktorode]

Im just pissed he got my money for the 1st 3 books.
Its like he got his money, now we can all go fuck ourselves... like an online scam.

[SalokinX]

dktorode, on 03 June 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:

Im just pissed he got my money for the 1st 3 books.
Its like he got his money, now we can all go fuck ourselves... like an online scam.

Next time give ME the money. I'll lick peanut butter off anywhere *wink wink*

[D'rek]

re: salokinX

Well, to start off, the time to write a book has means to be judged, compared. If Martin or Erikson or any other author were to very quickly write a series, it is only expected that next book in the series is going to be completed in equal time. Maybe a a few months more or a few less, but for a book to go WAY off is not acceptable. Why? Because there is a pattern to be followed, and expectations to be met. Take Lost for example. An incredibly well maintained episode schedule that was thrown in the garbage with, simply, the WORST scheduling of the last few seasons ever made by any TV Series I have bothered to watch. It broke the pattern of a new episode every week and didn't come even NEAR my expectations. Expectations that was shattered by recaps of previous experiences with the same series every other week. In other words, a valid expectation.

But, well, that's MY opinion. That's what a book writing schedule breaks down to: opinions factual times. Content, on the other hand, is not so very... malleable. It does NOT follow neither a pattern nor an expectation. You may say "well, Erikson writes a fantastic book every year, that's a patterns". Yes, I can't deny that, but what if he gets sick in Mongolia? If he is high? What if he gets a new fetish? There are many, MANY reasons for a writer to change the style of his work. There are also people who write pervertedly (like Martin has said many times). Maybe he just got tired of writing about swords and wolves and gay snow men and for now is just taking a break. Maybe he is perverted (he's easily the creepiest-looking 61-year-old), maybe his wife is also perverted, maybe he's having a serious case of writer's-muse-turns-out-to-be-a-transexual, etc, many reasons for his change in content.

And, if you would like to compare content anyway, you will see that Martin was never a consistent writer: clean polite coming of age stories for the second book , over-the-top gore for the third, and abject boring stories of cleaning temples for the fourth. So far we are getting more and more boring new characters, which means that, if anything, he has another 12 pointless plotlines to go.

So, you see, it IS different. Simply because the content of a book is fictional and event-less, whereas real life has many unexpected turns. A written book is immutable, whereas a writer writing a book has a life to live, specially such an old writer. You can't compare a human-being doing his work to a book, and that's really what it is.

So the only thing I can say is: control your instant-gratification and be glad Martin - or anyone else, for that matter - is still writing in whatever style. He's got an HBO series coming up and I bet he will be either millionaire or as good as that, which means he doesn't have to bother maintaing the same style of writing for us anymore.

Some people just don't know how to appreciate the good things in life and have to demand more and more of it. "Lend me your hand and I'll want your arm".


edit: @an anonymous someone's request I'll clarify that this post was refuting salokin's stance that content has to follow a pattern but book content doesn't by exchanging terms in his own post.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 03 June 2010 - 09:40 PM

[teholbeddict]

Apt I think you're being a bit grumpy here, not to mention not very welcoming to a new member. He's entitled to his opinion, and entitled to post about it. While a lot of us have talked this subject to death in previous posts, there are newer people who haven't and some who might like to discuss it again. If you don't want to talk about it this time around you don't have to join in on the thread and there's no need to jump all over Haroo.

@haroo Welcome to the board. I see the point of your post and thought it was pretty funny. I also happen to agree with what you were saying. I got sick got sick of waiting for this book to come out years ago. My biggest problem was that at the end of FFC he indicated he was nearly done with it and Dance would be coming out soon. Of course then it didn't and I know he claims it's because he had to re-write and that he's trying to put out a better book or whatever, but I think that's bull at this point. Not to mention the fact that he kept saying it was coming out soon and didn't happen either. He's obviously no longer interested in the series or at the very least it's no longer a priority. He's making far more money off of tv shows, selling t shirts and other crap, and going to conventions. The series has fallen to the wayside I doubt whether it's ever going to be completed. So yes he's lost interest in the book, and as a consequence I'm no longer interested in the series. There was a point where I would have pre-ordered that book and read it the minute it landed on my door step. Now I doubt I'll even buy it, and if I do it's definitely not going to be right away, and it will only be if I get a good deal off of bookdepository. IMO writing within the genre has improved a lot since FFC came out and since the series started, it's good but there's definitely better stuff out there. There's so much new stuff coming out all the time, that I don't need to bother worrying myself over a book that's possibly never going to come out, and if anything like the last one is likely to be sub par. Yes Mr. Martin is under no obligation to finish anything and he can blog, tour or do whatever he wants with his time. I'm also under no obligation to have continued interest in his series or spend any of my money on another one of his books. With his attitude and the delays I most likely won't. I'm with Bent in hoping it doesn't hit the best sellers list, but in all probability it will.

[SalokinX]

Uh, I'd just like to say 2 things D'rek.

First, Lost has a programmed schedule. It is not changeable. Some writers are forced to write at least one book per year due to contracts with the publisher, which is one reason a writer would work full time and publish a book each year. Some writers write books as HOBBIES, which would, naturally, slower writing.

So when you think about it, there's really no expectations there: a writer who writes for fun is not obligated to finish his book within a limited period of time.

As I said before, a pattern doesn't really exist on Martin's book. He wrote two books with a time gap of 2 years and one with a gap of 5 years, and his fifth book is nearing the 5th year. So, where is the pattern here? Seems like it is going 50/50, which means that, even if there WAS a pattern, it could go both ways. You might want to say "yeah, but his second and third books were in a pattern, 2 years between each". I can't deny that, but I don't consider that a pattern. It simply happened twice, doesn't mean it is a pattern.

And secondly, your examples due to the change of content are complete crap. If he "just got tired of writing about swords and wolves and gay snow men", then he wouldn't be writing the series anymore, would he?

"Martin was never a consistent writer" Really? I didn't notice. Maybe the other books weren't so gory because, well, no one was walking through the plains, witnessing the results of many battles. Maybe "abject boring stories of cleaning temples" was necessary to show the kind of person the to-be High Septon is?

I don't want to sound rude, but you seem frustrated that Martin hasn't been very active on the progress of A Song of Ice and Fire, maybe you're just a hater, or maybe you just want to tease me, but anyway, your reply was near useless as it only proved that I'm right. The only thing you did was edit my post and re-arrange a few words to make it sound the opposite, but the result was not something valid.

I just don't understand how you can compare the content of a book, which can be read, re-read, reviewed, edited, etc to writing-time, which basically just means "how much work does the author put forth into his or her book. Maybe Martin is being lazy, or maybe he is writing too much and getting tangled on the editing.

I just don't understand why someone would be angry at him and even stop reading his book for the sole reason that it is taking long. And worst, to say "I don't want it to be on the bestseller" helps your cause in absolutely nothing. It only means that you are angry because Martin didn't write the book in the time-frame you wanted him to write. Seems like something spoiled kids would do. "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! OR I'LL BREAK ALL YOUR STUFF AND DRAW ON THE WALL!!!!"

I mean, seriously. What's wrong with enjoying other books while you wait for Martin's work to come out? What's so wrong about Martin taking his sweet time to write the book? Why the hell would you get ANGRY and wish him - or his work - ill for not continuing what HE started? Sure, you bought the books and that is somewhat an investment, but I think that each book on its own gives you enough gratification to be worth the 10 bucks you spent on it.

I hope the next person who wants to rebuke my comment does so in a decent way, instead of changing my words to try to prove a point (with no success, I may add).

Cheers.

[teholbeddict]

Ahem. Okay....There is nothing wrong with enjoying other books while we wait for Dance to come out. I'm fairly sure that's exactly what I said I would be doing. I'm not sitting around at home waiting for his book to appear on shelves. While waiting and reading other books I've found other things I enjoy more and that I think are of far better quality. I'm perfectly entitled to choose where I spent my money and it's not going to be on the follow up book of a series I've lost interest in, especially when the last book was sub par at best. When I say I hope he doesn't end up on the best sellers list, I do so because I don't think he really gives a damn about his fans or the people who've bought his books and put money in his pocket. I think he's interested in hawking more of his fan gear to people than he is in writing. I don't think something should automatically be on the best seller's list based on his name alone. He knows he's behind on the book and has broken several deadlines, he knows fans are dissatisfied and is almost mocking of that at times in his blog. I don't think that kind of attitude or outlook should be rewarded, especially if the quality of writing is going to be the same as it was for FFC. You may think the books is worth the ten dollars, (it would be more than that for me as I don't buy mmpb's), but at this point I don't. As Abyss so kindly pointed out for us, if we don't like his attitude or how long it's taken we can say so with out wallets and that's what I intend to do. I'm twenty eight years old not a child thank you, and I am free to make decisions and spend my money where I see fit. I'd no more return to a store with poor service, that took forever to get something I ordered in, than I would buy a follow up book to a series I no longer think is that great, that has taken so long to come out I've lost interest in it. If it were a tv show and I were waiting for the new season or next episode to come out, I'd have lost interest, moved on and started watching something else by now. I had no time frame in mind for Dance, Martin was the one who created one and then failed to keep it - repeatedly. It's got nothing to do with him writing the book in some magical time frame I'd envisioned, and everything to do with the fact that he's just not writing it and I'm no longer interested.

Oh and by the way you may not like Drek's posting style and may not think she was successful in her rebuke ( I disagree with you), but that doesn't give you the right to put her down and glorify yourself. A little respect for other members goes a long way. It's a public forum, people can post in whichever format or style they choose. She may not share your opinion, but she is entitled to her opinion, you don't have to agree but you should be respectful.

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 04 June 2010 - 03:09 AM

[D'rek]

SalokinX, on 04 June 2010 - 02:32 AM, said:

Uh, I'd just like to say 2 things D'rek.

First, Lost has a programmed schedule. It is not changeable. Some writers are forced to write at least one book per year due to contracts with the publisher, which is one reason a writer would work full time and publish a book each year. Some writers write books as HOBBIES, which would, naturally, slower writing.

So when you think about it, there's really no expectations there: a writer who writes for fun is not obligated to finish his book within a limited period of time.

As I said before, a pattern doesn't really exist on Martin's book. He wrote two books with a time gap of 2 years and one with a gap of 5 years, and his fifth book is nearing the 5th year. So, where is the pattern here? Seems like it is going 50/50, which means that, even if there WAS a pattern, it could go both ways. You might want to say "yeah, but his second and third books were in a pattern, 2 years between each". I can't deny that, but I don't consider that a pattern. It simply happened twice, doesn't mean it is a pattern.

And secondly, your examples due to the change of content are complete crap. If he "just got tired of writing about swords and wolves and gay snow men", then he wouldn't be writing the series anymore, would he?

"Martin was never a consistent writer" Really? I didn't notice. Maybe the other books weren't so gory because, well, no one was walking through the plains, witnessing the results of many battles. Maybe "abject boring stories of cleaning temples" was necessary to show the kind of person the to-be High Septon is?

I don't want to sound rude, but you seem frustrated that Martin hasn't been very active on the progress of A Song of Ice and Fire, maybe you're just a hater, or maybe you just want to tease me, but anyway, your reply was near useless as it only proved that I'm right. The only thing you did was edit my post and re-arrange a few words to make it sound the opposite, but the result was not something valid.

I just don't understand how you can compare the content of a book, which can be read, re-read, reviewed, edited, etc to writing-time, which basically just means "how much work does the author put forth into his or her book. Maybe Martin is being lazy, or maybe he is writing too much and getting tangled on the editing.

I just don't understand why someone would be angry at him and even stop reading his book for the sole reason that it is taking long. And worst, to say "I don't want it to be on the bestseller" helps your cause in absolutely nothing. It only means that you are angry because Martin didn't write the book in the time-frame you wanted him to write. Seems like something spoiled kids would do. "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! OR I'LL BREAK ALL YOUR STUFF AND DRAW ON THE WALL!!!!"

I mean, seriously. What's wrong with enjoying other books while you wait for Martin's work to come out? What's so wrong about Martin taking his sweet time to write the book? Why the hell would you get ANGRY and wish him - or his work - ill for not continuing what HE started? Sure, you bought the books and that is somewhat an investment, but I think that each book on its own gives you enough gratification to be worth the 10 bucks you spent on it.

I hope the next person who wants to rebuke my comment does so in a decent way, instead of changing my words to try to prove a point (with no success, I may add).

Cheers.

Fine, since the notion of satire is completely lost on some people, I'll just have to do this the old-fashioned way...

---

I find your viewpoint - that variation in an author's writing times being acceptable but variation in the author's content not being acceptable - a misguided notion wherein you are failing to apply the same standard equally to both factors.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Well, to start off, the content of a book has means to be judged, compared. If Martin or Erikson or any other author were to write an incredibly awesome series, it is only expected that next book in the series is of equal quality. Maybe a bit better or a bit worse, but for a book to go WAY off is not acceptable. Why? Because there is a pattern to be followed, and expectations to be met.

The content of a book does not have means to be judged or compared. Sure, we do it anyways, but every book of any genre of fiction can only be judged by the sole personal opinions of each individual reading it. Sure you can say MBotF is better than Twilight, but there will be plenty of people who feel its the other way around. Trying to compare the two is inevitably impossible to do completely objectionably because every fictional book is a seperate experience for every individual reader. Writers change over time like everyone and therefore their writing styles and ability to please particular people (who have also changed over time) is always going to change for plenty of people. There is no pattern to content unless you write the same book word for word repeatedly (and even then it'll be seen differently each time because of changing modern viewpoints and the impact of having done it X number of previous times).

One need only look at a forum like this where everyone is a hardcore fan of the series but no one can agree on how to rate Erikson's books against each other.

On the other hand, the time between releasing books is a factual, mathematical amount that can quite generally be understood the same way by everyon with a basic concept of how a calendar works. Any intelligent reader should know that writing styles change, authors change, they themselves may change, and so there is never anything close to a guarantee of a so-called "pattern" that will be followed as far as the quality throughout a series of books because it is entirely inherent upon personal satisfaction and some people's gold is another person's shit. They obviously therefore can see that an author can't please anyone and that eventually it will be their turn to be disappointed.

On the other hand, pointless delays in writing an on-going series or similar such occurences affect everyone equally, so if there's a pattern at all, it is that as it is not subjective to personal viewpoint.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Take Lost for example. An incredibly well done story that was thrown in the garbage with, simply, the WORST last season ever made by any TV Series I have bothered to watch. It broke the pattern of mystery and surprise and didn't come even NEAR my expectations. Expectations that was built and based on previous experiences with the same series. In other words, a valid expectation.

Nope. That season being "the WORST lass season ever made by any TV Series you have bothered to watch" is entirely your opinion and not judgeable or comparable at all. There are plenty of people who had an equally valid expectation and loved every minute of that last season. You can't even compare the season they experienced with the one you did, let alone compare two different TV shows' last seasons.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

But, well, that's MY opinion. That's what a book content breaks down to: opinions. Writing time, on the other hand, is not so... malleable. It does NOT follow neither a pattern nor an expectation.

And now you're agreeing with me - book content breaks down to opinions, so how can that be a pattern?

And you should look up the word malleable. I do not think it means what you think it means.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

You may say "well, Erikson writes a book every year, that's a patterns". Yes, I can't deny that, but what if he breaks his hand? If he is shot? What if he gets sick? There are many, MANY reasons for a writer to delay the publishing of his work. There are also people who write slowly (like Martin has said many times). Maybe he just got tired of writing and for now is just taking a break. Maybe he is sick (he's not the healthiest-looking 61-year-old), maybe his wife is sick, maybe he's having a serious case of writer's block, etc, many reasons for his delay.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

So, you see, it IS different. Simply because the content of a book is fictional and event-less, whereas real life has many unexpected turns. A written book is immutable, whereas a writer writing a book has a life to live, specially such an old writer. You can't compare a human-being doing his work to a book, and that's really what it is.

And how is this not an equally valid argument for changes in content?

Let's say there's a happy series written by an author who's entire family is killed in a car crash. You're saying it's okay for him to delay his next novel because of that, but that next novel damned well better still be cheerful in tone right?

Real-life affects content far more than writing times if you ask me, but all I'm arguing is that it affects *both*.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Some people just don't know how to appreciate the good things in life and have to demand more and more of it. "Lend me your hand and I'll want your arm".

I look forward to your ranting and raving when the content is off-pattern.

---

D'rek, does not watch Lost, has not read Martin...

[haroos]

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 12:54 AM, said:

Apt I think you're being a bit grumpy here, not to mention not very welcoming to a new member. He's entitled to his opinion, and entitled to post about it. While a lot of us have talked this subject to death in previous posts, there are newer people who haven't and some who might like to discuss it again. If you don't want to talk about it this time around you don't have to join in on the thread and there's no need to jump all over Haroo.

@haroo Welcome to the board. I see the point of your post and thought it was pretty funny. I also happen to agree with what you were saying. I got sick got sick of waiting for this book to come out years ago. My biggest problem was that at the end of FFC he indicated he was nearly done with it and Dance would be coming out soon. Of course then it didn't and I know he claims it's because he had to re-write and that he's trying to put out a better book or whatever, but I think that's bull at this point. Not to mention the fact that he kept saying it was coming out soon and didn't happen either. He's obviously no longer interested in the series or at the very least it's no longer a priority. He's making far more money off of tv shows, selling t shirts and other crap, and going to conventions. The series has fallen to the wayside I doubt whether it's ever going to be completed. So yes he's lost interest in the book, and as a consequence I'm no longer interested in the series. There was a point where I would have pre-ordered that book and read it the minute it landed on my door step. Now I doubt I'll even buy it, and if I do it's definitely not going to be right away, and it will only be if I get a good deal off of bookdepository. IMO writing within the genre has improved a lot since FFC came out and since the series started, it's good but there's definitely better stuff out there. There's so much new stuff coming out all the time, that I don't need to bother worrying myself over a book that's possibly never going to come out, and if anything like the last one is likely to be sub par. Yes Mr. Martin is under no obligation to finish anything and he can blog, tour or do whatever he wants with his time. I'm also under no obligation to have continued interest in his series or spend any of my money on another one of his books. With his attitude and the delays I most likely won't. I'm with Bent in hoping it doesn't hit the best sellers list, but in all probability it will.

i have a sneaking suspicion that the book is finished already, but that he is planing on making it come out
at the same time as the tv series.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

At this point I've accepted that there is no telling when this series will be finished, and understand being tired of discussing it, again. However, to suggest that it is somehow out of bounds to talk about is ridiculous. If people want to vent about it, that's their right as much as it is Martin's right to not give a shit. I don't know where the idea that the release date of this book is sacred territory, only to be discussed by haters, came from but I don't get it.

By this logic, we should never voice displeasure over delays in our favorite media coming out? How about the hobbit thread, where it is mentioned (to my immense sadness) that it's looking like a 6 year project from whenever they find a director. Am I a hater for mentioning that this sucks, because we have been hearing about these movies since LOTR finished?

HOw about video games? It makes me sad that there has been no talk of the next elder scrolls game. Am I out of bounds, reaching for instant gratification for saying I wish it would come out?

Bottom line, Martin has made many claims he has not lived up to, as is his right. THe fact that he is a public figure does not, however, make him immune to criticism for this. If the discussion bugs you so much, don't go into the threads where it is being discussed. Criticizing someone as needing instant gratification because they are annoyed that a book has missed its deadline by several years seems a little off point.

[Salt-Man Z]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

HOw about video games? ... Am I out of bounds, reaching for instant gratification for saying I wish it would come out?

Freaking DUKE NUKEM FOREVER.

[haroos]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

At this point I've accepted that there is no telling when this series will be finished, and understand being tired of discussing it, again. However, to suggest that it is somehow out of bounds to talk about is ridiculous. If people want to vent about it, that's their right as much as it is Martin's right to not give a shit. I don't know where the idea that the release date of this book is sacred territory, only to be discussed by haters, came from but I don't get it.

By this logic, we should never voice displeasure over delays in our favorite media coming out? How about the hobbit thread, where it is mentioned (to my immense sadness) that it's looking like a 6 year project from whenever they find a director. Am I a hater for mentioning that this sucks, because we have been hearing about these movies since LOTR finished?

HOw about video games? It makes me sad that there has been no talk of the next elder scrolls game. Am I out of bounds, reaching for instant gratification for saying I wish it would come out?

Bottom line, Martin has made many claims he has not lived up to, as is his right. THe fact that he is a public figure does not, however, make him immune to criticism for this. If the discussion bugs you so much, don't go into the threads where it is being discussed. Criticizing someone as needing instant gratification because they are annoyed that a book has missed its deadline by several years seems a little off point.

it's not out of bounds.
i agree that i have no right to dictate to anyone what to do, it's elementary.
and i can't order martin to write the book.
but i do like to point out, for the consideration of people, that while he blogs about many things that he likes to do, and
while he has finished writing or editing about 8 books in the past 10 years, he has not finished the one project that made him a household name among sci-fi/fantasy readers.

[SalokinX]

NOTE: I had to divided the post in 3 parts for quote restrictions. Prepare yourselves for a long read.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

Ahem. Okay....There is nothing wrong with enjoying other books while we wait for Dance to come out. I'm fairly sure that's exactly what I said I would be doing. I'm not sitting around at home waiting for his book to appear on shelves. While waiting and reading other books I've found other things I enjoy more and that I think are of far better quality. I'm perfectly entitled to choose where I spent my money and it's not going to be on the follow up book of a series I've lost interest in, especially when the last book was sub par at best.

I'm glad you have a personal opinion, I never said that people are not entitled to dislike Martin's work. I don't see anything wrong in not liking ASOIAF, and further I see no reason, like yourself, to buy the books.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

When I say I hope he doesn't end up on the best sellers list, I do so because I don't think he really gives a damn about his fans or the people who've bought his books and put money in his pocket. I think he's interested in hawking more of his fan gear to people than he is in writing.

So what if he doesn't give a damn about his fans? Does that reduce the quality of his work? I'm not reading his books because he is a superhero, I'm reading because he is a very good writer. Do you enjoy Walt Disney movies/theme parks? Well, it just so happens Walt Disney hated Jews. Shouldn't everyone boycott Walt Disney World because of that? Of course not. We are not enjoying his ideals, we are enjoying his creations.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

I don't think something should automatically be on the best seller's list based on his name alone.

I agree with you on that. I think that a book should enter the best seller's list based on its quality. But from what I gathered on your post thus far is that you DON'T want him on the best seller's list strictly because of his behavior...

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

He knows he's behind on the book and has broken several deadlines, he knows fans are dissatisfied and is almost mocking of that at times in his blog. I don't think that kind of attitude or outlook should be rewarded, especially if the quality of writing is going to be the same as it was for FFC.

So you are saying that delay in publishing dates count more than the content of the book itself? And, so far you have shown that you did not really enjoy A Feast for Crows as much as the other 3 books, hence you automatically assumed the next 3 books of the series are going to be a down-hill slope. I understand that you are basing your opinion on the last experience, but I would just like to point out that one bad experience doesn't negate a good one, much less 3.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

You may think the books is worth the ten dollars, (it would be more than that for me as I don't buy mmpb's), but at this point I don't. As Abyss so kindly pointed out for us, if we don't like his attitude or how long it's taken we can say so with out wallets and that's what I intend to do.

Again, I think that books should be criticized by their content, not their writer. If you were to buy this series a few years from now, when all the remaining books have been published, you wouldn't be making such a fuzz about how long he took to write them. You would just enjoy the content of the books and everything else would be irrelevant. I doubt anyone does a throughout research on the writer before buying a FANTASY book.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

I'm twenty eight years old not a child thank you, and I am free to make decisions and spend my money where I see fit. I'd no more return to a store with poor service, that took forever to get something I ordered in, than I would buy a follow up book to a series I no longer think is that great, that has taken so long to come out I've lost interest in it.

Again, the time-issue resurfaces. Since you lost interest in it, I don't see any reason for you to buy the books, that's plain and simple.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

If it were a tv show and I were waiting for the new season or next episode to come out, I'd have lost interest, moved on and started watching something else by now.

And "Something else by now" can only include TV Shows that are already finished and available in DVD, right? Only one episode per week is not enough to satisfy your hunger and ever-growing lost of interest.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

I had no time frame in mind for Dance, Martin was the one who created one and then failed to keep it - repeatedly. It's got nothing to do with him writing the book in some magical time frame I'd envisioned, and everything to do with the fact that he's just not writing it and I'm no longer interested.

Again, we are in the same time-issue and opinion.

teholbeddict, on 04 June 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:

Oh and by the way you may not like Drek's posting style and may not think she was successful in her rebuke ( I disagree with you), but that doesn't give you the right to put her down and glorify yourself. A little respect for other members goes a long way. It's a public forum, people can post in whichever format or style they choose. She may not share your opinion, but she is entitled to her opinion, you don't have to agree but you should be respectful.

Put her down and glorify myself? I don't remember doing that. I remember pointing out that her way of proving a point is not efficient and I do not appreciate it. I respect every member in this forum, and I have not disrespected any of them. So far the only thing that I think may be disrespectful is calling people spoiled, but then what other word is there for their so-called reasons?

And yes, we do not share opinions, but I accept that she has one and I respect it. All I'm doing here is pointing out what I think is wrong. If you find that so disrespectful you shouldn't have joined a forum in the first place. I didn't mean to sound harsh, even though I know it did, but there just isn't a nicer way to put that there. A forum is a place where people share and discuss opinions, and that's the only thing going on here.

[SalokinX]

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

I find your viewpoint - that variation in an author's writing times being acceptable but variation in the author's content not being acceptable - a misguided notion wherein you are failing to apply the same standard equally to both factors.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Well, to start off, the content of a book has means to be judged, compared. If Martin or Erikson or any other author were to write an incredibly awesome series, it is only expected that next book in the series is of equal quality. Maybe a bit better or a bit worse, but for a book to go WAY off is not acceptable. Why? Because there is a pattern to be followed, and expectations to be met.

The content of a book does not have means to be judged or compared. Sure, we do it anyways, but every book of any genre of fiction can only be judged by the sole personal opinions of each individual reading it. Sure you can say MBotF is better than Twilight, but there will be plenty of people who feel its the other way around. Trying to compare the two is inevitably impossible to do completely objectionably because every fictional book is a seperate experience for every individual reader. Writers change over time like everyone and therefore their writing styles and ability to please particular people (who have also changed over time) is always going to change for plenty of people. There is no pattern to content unless you write the same book word for word repeatedly (and even then it'll be seen differently each time because of changing modern viewpoints and the impact of having done it X number of previous times).

I'd just like to point out that at no time I decided to judge two completely different novels. Just like you can't compare a comedy movie to a horror movie.

So you are saying that Martin's book doesn't follow a somewhat-on-the-same-level quality? That "the content of a book does not have means to be judged or compared"? Then why do people keep saying that A Feast for Crows wasn't on the same level as the others? Sounds like a comparison to me. We know what to expect from Martin's work: I, for once, expect him to write an incredibly good book. His books, so far, have surpassed even Tolkien's world - in my opinion, of course - and I expect him to stay on that line. He may go either a bit above or a bit under, but still close to the line. If his fifth book turned out to be a great disappointment (note the judgment there) it would surely kill his series, because it's not on the same level as the others (note the comparison there.)

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

One need only look at a forum like this where everyone is a hardcore fan of the series but no one can agree on how to rate Erikson's books against each other.

But everyone would agree that his series has a standard of quality, and that is a comparison based on a judgment.

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

On the other hand, the time between releasing books is a factual, mathematical amount that can quite generally be understood the same way by everyon with a basic concept of how a calendar works. Any intelligent reader should know that writing styles change, authors change, they themselves may change, and so there is never anything close to a guarantee of a so-called "pattern" that will be followed as far as the quality throughout a series of books because it is entirely inherent upon personal satisfaction and some people's gold is another person's shit. They obviously therefore can see that an author can't please anyone and that eventually it will be their turn to be disappointed.

Well, just like some people like Twilight, some people like A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm glad you understand this. But the people who like Twilight have an expectation based on the first book of the series, just like I just explained. I don't have any expectations for Twilight because I haven't read it. But if I had, and I disliked the first book, I would think that the second would follow a close standard of quality, which goes back to the previously discussed point.

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Take Lost for example. An incredibly well done story that was thrown in the garbage with, simply, the WORST last season ever made by any TV Series I have bothered to watch. It broke the pattern of mystery and surprise and didn't come even NEAR my expectations. Expectations that was built and based on previous experiences with the same series. In other words, a valid expectation.

Nope. That season being "the WORST lass season ever made by any TV Series you have bothered to watch" is entirely your opinion and not judgeable or comparable at all. There are plenty of people who had an equally valid expectation and loved every minute of that last season. You can't even compare the season they experienced with the one you did, let alone compare two different TV shows' last seasons.

It is judgeable and comparable. It's my opinion, but it still is judgeable and comparable, not to mention the general consensus is that the last season was, indeed, bad. Some people will like it, because opinions are personal, it varies from a person to another, but that doesn't change anything. It didn't follow the pattern of Lost and many people who "loved the ending" didn't even watch the whole series. The die-hard fans were incredibly disappointed with this last season, and if you don't believe me just go to any Lost forum and check out *VALID* opinions; not those of people who started watching from the 3rd season, skipped about 45 episodes, and expect to have their opinions counted as valid.

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

But, well, that's MY opinion. That's what a book content breaks down to: opinions. Writing time, on the other hand, is not so... malleable. It does NOT follow neither a pattern nor an expectation.

And now you're agreeing with me - book content breaks down to opinions, so how can that be a pattern?

Like I said before. If I read 2 or 3 books in a series and they are all extraordinarily good, I expect the 4th to be equally good. That is the pattern based on my opinion.

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

And you should look up the word malleable. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Well, maybe I should just fix the sentence "Writing time, on the other hand, are much more... malleable." Better?

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

You may say "well, Erikson writes a book every year, that's a patterns". Yes, I can't deny that, but what if he breaks his hand? If he is shot? What if he gets sick? There are many, MANY reasons for a writer to delay the publishing of his work. There are also people who write slowly (like Martin has said many times). Maybe he just got tired of writing and for now is just taking a break. Maybe he is sick (he's not the healthiest-looking 61-year-old), maybe his wife is sick, maybe he's having a serious case of writer's block, etc, many reasons for his delay.

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

So, you see, it IS different. Simply because the content of a book is fictional and event-less, whereas real life has many unexpected turns. A written book is immutable, whereas a writer writing a book has a life to live, specially such an old writer. You can't compare a human-being doing his work to a book, and that's really what it is.

And how is this not an equally valid argument for changes in content?

Let's say there's a happy series written by an author who's entire family is killed in a car crash. You're saying it's okay for him to delay his next novel because of that, but that next novel damned well better still be cheerful in tone right?

Real-life affects content far more than writing times if you ask me, but all I'm arguing is that it affects *both*.

Yes, it better be cheerful. If I'm reading a series called "The Incredibly Happy Life of Bob", famous for telling the story of a young boy named Bob and how his life was perfect, the happiest ever know in human history, I expect the next book to be just as cheerful as the rest. I don't care what happened to the author, if he can't continue his pattern he might as well either drop the series or put a pause on it until his life is back together.

D, on 04 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Some people just don't know how to appreciate the good things in life and have to demand more and more of it. "Lend me your hand and I'll want your arm".

I look forward to your ranting and raving when the content is off-pattern.

If A Song of Ice and Fire ever goes off-pattern, then you will see me disappointed, but not ranting, I assure you that.

[SalokinX]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

At this point I've accepted that there is no telling when this series will be finished, and understand being tired of discussing it, again. However, to suggest that it is somehow out of bounds to talk about is ridiculous. If people want to vent about it, that's their right as much as it is Martin's right to not give a shit. I don't know where the idea that the release date of this book is sacred territory, only to be discussed by haters, came from but I don't get it.

I don't think the topic's creator was a "frustrated vent". It was more of a "ranting vent", where he is not frustrated, but straight-out angry at Martin, simply because the book he wants to read so much is still not on his bookstore's shelf. If he had said something along the lines of "Man, I'm tired of waiting, I wish this book just came out already! I want to read it sooo much", then I would understand, because that's how I feel too, but being ANGRY at Martin... I just can't take this as something acceptable.

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

By this logic, we should never voice displeasure over delays in our favorite media coming out? How about the hobbit thread, where it is mentioned (to my immense sadness) that it's looking like a 6 year project from whenever they find a director. Am I a hater for mentioning that this sucks, because we have been hearing about these movies since LOTR finished?

Nope, I am sad too, but I'm not going around saying "I HATE THIS MOVIE! I HOPE IT NEVER GETS DONE! I HOPE ALL THE ACTORS AND DIRECTORS AND EVERYONE ELSE INVOLVED IN THE PRODUCTION DIE!". Of course, dramatizing, but still. I am frustrated at the wait, but I'm not mad at it.

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

HOw about video games? It makes me sad that there has been no talk of the next elder scrolls game. Am I out of bounds, reaching for instant gratification for saying I wish it would come out?

Same as the previous point.

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 04 June 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

Bottom line, Martin has made many claims he has not lived up to, as is his right. THe fact that he is a public figure does not, however, make him immune to criticism for this. If the discussion bugs you so much, don't go into the threads where it is being discussed. Criticizing someone as needing instant gratification because they are annoyed that a book has missed its deadline by several years seems a little off point.

It doesn't bother me that Martin is being criticized, it bothers me that he is being under attack. He is a slow writer, that is no secret. He also broke his own dead-line 2 or 3 times, also a fact. But to go on as to say he shouldn't be LIVING until he releases his book (like the creator of this topic basically implied) or that his books shouldn't reach best-seller list simply because you are angry at Martin is just straight out stupid.