[worry]

This is an aside, but "The Rope" just becomes a more and more awesome moniker the more you learn of Cotillion.

[matc4]

I can't remember when or where i read this or even if it actually happenned but i seem to remember Cotillion stating at some point that acted the way he did as Sorry to stop any of the Bridgeburners getting close to her and potentially finding out who she is, as they ordinarilly would have tried to make friends. May have been in HoC at some point but as I said I cannot remember where the scene was.

[Johnny Phoenix]

I agree with worrywort in that I don't think it was direct possession. I think Cotilion controlled her actions on a basic level, the specific way she went about doing things was a result of her own traumatized, tortured mind. She may have started out as an innocent girl, but I'm sure a god creeping into your body and mind will really fuck with you.

Kanubis, when Tattersail thinks about Kalam as a man who enjoys killing, its only from her POV and is not necessarily the truth.

On another note about Apsalar, did anyone actually enjoy her as a character? I couldn't stand the bitch after DG. I understand why she turned out the way she did, and I was okay with her development from GotM to the end of DG, but from HoC and onward she just pissed me off. There was nothing interesting about her anymore. Just another cold-blooded, emotionless killer. And I really hated how badass Erikson ended up making her. Better than Kalam is one thing, but being a better assassin than the GOD of assassins is just stupid.

[Kanubis]

Johnny_Phoenix, on 02 August 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

On another note about Apsalar, did anyone actually enjoy her as a character? I couldn't stand the bitch after DG. I understand why she turned out the way she did, and I was okay with her development from GotM to the end of DG, but from HoC and onward she just pissed me off. There was nothing interesting about her anymore. Just another cold-blooded, emotionless killer. And I really hated how badass Erikson ended up making her. Better than Kalam is one thing, but being a better assassin than the GOD of assassins is just stupid.

She annoyed me a bit in HoC, but I liked her stuff in BH. I think her lack of emotion and general humanity is meant to stir up feelings of tradegy - that what Cotillion took from her she can never truly get back. I also liked the twist that while the ex-BB Bonehunters were incredibly uneasy around her, Paran, the one man who has every right to distrust her is the only one that she manages to have a decent, warm(ish) conversation with

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 02 August 2010 - 02:02 PM

[Johnny Phoenix]

Yeah like I said I can understand why she is the way she is, I just didn't enjoy her part of the story whatsoever. As for Paran, you know that's really funny, it didn't even click in my head that it was Apsalar who killed the guy while reading that part of TBH. Paran must not be aware of that. I mean how can you be happy to see someone that literally stabbed you in the back?

[Sinisdar Toste]

because she didn't literally stab him in the back. sorry did. the first thing she says to paran after cotillion leaves is, "i killed you, i had your blood on my hands" so he knows. and he's not the kind of guy to hold a grudge against a person used by a god, as he knows all about it. i really enjoyed their little meet up actually

[Meraxes]

I still think that under all the cold - blooded - murdering- bitch facade she's just a child who was robbed of her innocence. She was forced to grow up to stand in the shoes of the patron of assassins himself, got a hold of his mortal memories, including some real nasty ones, including near death experiences. That's the kind of thing that can make you bitter beyond your years, I think. Add to it all the fact that the one man whom you love to the point of martyrizing yourself for his sake is becoming what you hate most because he thinks it can get him closer to you, forcing you to leave him so that he can remain innocent ( which is, in my opinion, one of the reasons Apsalar loves him) which btw ultimately fails, and you've got your perfect Apsalar mental health resume.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Johnny_Phoenix, on 02 August 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

Better than Kalam is one thing, but being a better assassin than the GOD of assassins is just stupid.

Honestly, thats where I started to hate her. She was interesting in her own way up until that point, but that ruined her. Sure she's good, and better than most I can defently accept, possibly even the best mortal.. but better than the god of assassins? No. Sorry to say it, but even among all the amazinlgy powerful characdters in these books, that just went to far without any sensible explination.

[Sinisdar Toste]

NikitaDarkstar, on 03 August 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

Johnny_Phoenix, on 02 August 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

Better than Kalam is one thing, but being a better assassin than the GOD of assassins is just stupid.

Honestly, thats where I started to hate her. She was interesting in her own way up until that point, but that ruined her. Sure she's good, and better than most I can defently accept, possibly even the best mortal.. but better than the god of assassins? No. Sorry to say it, but even among all the amazinlgy powerful characdters in these books, that just went to far without any sensible explination.

why shouldn't she be at least as good as cotillion? she has his exact same skill set! ST could have easily meant that 'not even cotillion' had ever performed such a shadowdance, not that he couldn't do it. im sure cotillion could have wrapped up the entire island in time for breakfast if he wanted to.

[Meraxes]

Sinisdar Toste, on 04 August 2010 - 02:07 AM, said:

NikitaDarkstar, on 03 August 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

Johnny_Phoenix, on 02 August 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

Better than Kalam is one thing, but being a better assassin than the GOD of assassins is just stupid.

Honestly, thats where I started to hate her. She was interesting in her own way up until that point, but that ruined her. Sure she's good, and better than most I can defently accept, possibly even the best mortal.. but better than the god of assassins? No. Sorry to say it, but even among all the amazinlgy powerful characdters in these books, that just went to far without any sensible explination.

why shouldn't she be at least as good as cotillion? she has his exact same skill set! ST could have easily meant that 'not even cotillion' had ever performed such a shadowdance, not that he couldn't do it. im sure cotillion could have wrapped up the entire island in time for breakfast if he wanted to.

I second that opinion, he definitely could have done it gagged and blindfolded.

[Johnny Phoenix]

"because she didn't literally stab him in the back. sorry did. the first thing she says to paran after cotillion leaves is, "i killed you, i had your blood on my hands" so he knows. and he's not the kind of guy to hold a grudge against a person used by a god, as he knows all about it. i really enjoyed their little meet up actually"

Don't remember that line but I'll take your word on it. Cool, that clears things up.

"why shouldn't she be at least as good as cotillion? she has his exact same skill set! ST could have easily meant that 'not even cotillion' had ever performed such a shadowdance, not that he couldn't do it. im sure cotillion could have wrapped up the entire island in time for breakfast if he wanted to."

Why shouldn't she be as good as Cotillion? Maybe because she is not a GOD! The same skill set sure, but physical, magical and mental ability are obviously vastly improved as an Ascendant. It's like having a lightweight and a heavyweight both equally good with throwing a cross, if both their technique is absolutely flawless the heavyweight is still going to punch harder because of the larger muscles. And why would Shadowthrone feel the need to mention that Cotillion never performed such a Shadowdance if he thought that he still could? What would be the point in uttering that statement? No, no, it definitely seemed like Shadowthrone was more or less shocked by Apsalar's ability, and the quote makes it seem like he doubted Cotillions ability to match it.

This post has been edited by Johnny_Phoenix: 04 August 2010 - 03:12 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Johnny_Phoenix, on 04 August 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

"because she didn't literally stab him in the back. sorry did. the first thing she says to paran after cotillion leaves is, "i killed you, i had your blood on my hands" so he knows. and he's not the kind of guy to hold a grudge against a person used by a god, as he knows all about it. i really enjoyed their little meet up actually"

Don't remember that line but I'll take your word on it. Cool, that clears things up.

"why shouldn't she be at least as good as cotillion? she has his exact same skill set! ST could have easily meant that 'not even cotillion' had ever performed such a shadowdance, not that he couldn't do it. im sure cotillion could have wrapped up the entire island in time for breakfast if he wanted to."

Why shouldn't she be as good as Cotillion? Maybe because she is not a GOD! The same skill set sure, but physical, magical and mental ability are obviously vastly improved as an Ascendant. It's like having a lightweight and a heavyweight both equally good with throwing a cross, if both their technique is absolutely flawless the heavyweight is still going to punch harder because of the larger muscles. And why would Shadowthrone feel the need to mention that Cotillion never performed such a Shadowdance if he thought that he still could? What would be the point in uttering that statement? No, no, it definitely seemed like Shadowthrone was more or less shocked by Apsalar's ability, and the quote makes it seem like he doubted Cotillions ability to match it.

suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. i feel there is a number of things that ST's quote could refer to. he was shocked of course but beyond that, "Not even cotillion" doesn't tell me the same things it tells you.

isn't literary analysis fun?

[Meraxes]

this discussion is endless, and has been had multiple times in other topics in this forum. I'd say only ST knows what he meant by it, and maybe even SE....but no one else, so we'll have to live with the doubt.

[Johnny Phoenix]

"suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. i feel there is a number of things that ST's quote could refer to. he was shocked of course but beyond that, "Not even cotillion" doesn't tell me the same things it tells you.

isn't literary analysis fun?"

"this discussion is endless, and has been had multiple times in other topics in this forum. I'd say only ST knows what he meant by it, and maybe even SE....but no one else, so we'll have to live with the doubt."

Oh for sure, the questions and mysteries the series creates are a huge part of the fun. I love how so many things can be discussed and debated. A story with too much closure doesn't leave you thinking about it after you've experienced it.

Off subject: is there a way to quote multiple users the official way on the board?

This post has been edited by Johnny Phoenix: 04 August 2010 - 07:30 AM

[Kanubis]

At this point, with all the little references we have to the relationship between ST and Dancer, it wouldn't even surprise me if Dancer had never let ST know the full extent of his ability. Had perhaps held something back while killing in front of him. We've seen evidence of them withholding stuff from each other. 

This could even have been what ST was actually realising...

[Siergiej]

I don't know if it's the matter of translation, but the in the polish version of Bonehunters (I don't have the original) Shadowthrone says that even Cotillion couldn't do something like that. And that would really make Apsalar overpowered. There is a lot of insanely strong characters in MBotF, so I don't see the need for Apsalar in that group, but maybe in later novels she will develop in some interesting way.

[champ]

Siergiej, on 04 August 2010 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't know if it's the matter of translation, but the in the polish version of Bonehunters (I don't have the original) Shadowthrone says that even Cotillion couldn't do something like that.

same as the english versions

[D'rek]

champooon, on 04 August 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

Siergiej, on 04 August 2010 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't know if it's the matter of translation, but the in the polish version of Bonehunters (I don't have the original) Shadowthrone says that even Cotillion couldn't do something like that.

same as the english versions

No it isn't. In the english versions he sighs and says "Not even Cotillion." That's literally all he says about it. He doesn't say "Not even Cotillion could do that.", he just says "Not even Cotillion." For all we know he means "Not even Cotillion has feet as small as yours." It could equally mean that Cotillion can't do something as Cotillion hasn't done something, each reader just has to take it their own way.

Johnny Phoenix, on 04 August 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

Off subject: is there a way to quote multiple users the official way on the board?

Click the "Multiquote" button under each post you want to quote.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Johnny Phoenix, on 04 August 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

"why shouldn't she be at least as good as cotillion? she has his exact same skill set! ST could have easily meant that 'not even cotillion' had ever performed such a shadowdance, not that he couldn't do it. im sure cotillion could have wrapped up the entire island in time for breakfast if he wanted to."

Why shouldn't she be as good as Cotillion? Maybe because she is not a GOD! The same skill set sure, but physical, magical and mental ability are obviously vastly improved as an Ascendant. It's like having a lightweight and a heavyweight both equally good with throwing a cross, if both their technique is absolutely flawless the heavyweight is still going to punch harder because of the larger muscles. And why would Shadowthrone feel the need to mention that Cotillion never performed such a Shadowdance if he thought that he still could? What would be the point in uttering that statement? No, no, it definitely seemed like Shadowthrone was more or less shocked by Apsalar's ability, and the quote makes it seem like he doubted Cotillions ability to match it.

Thanks Johnny, that pretty much exactly says what I wanted to say, glad to see someone else thinks the same as me.

[Tatterdemalion]

To briefly hop back on the Kellanved/Dancer train from page one, guide me:

I always thought Kellanved was basically sane, and not considered insane, while he went up the ladder of Malazan enterprise, Dancer by his side to protect and enforce his actions. I always thought that it was once he had reached the pinacle and began to stretch OUTWARDS, into the warrens and into the past and into even GREATER supremacy that his sanity began to leak. As such, I would imagine that Dancer might follow a similar pattern of change, except not with 'sanity.'

This would be why Kell inspired loyalty of brave men like WJ and Crusts. Because the madness hasn't set in yet.
And then, over time, as he frayed, they fell away - as they did. But Dancer stayed because - well, Cotillion knows something. Is he to Shadowthrone what Mappo is to Icarium?

Maybe we'll see.