[Kanubis]

 I'm referring to GotM here, but since it's with the knowledge we have of Dancer from about this point in the series, best to post it in here?

Anyway, this might just be a pure GotMism, but on my third read-through of GotM last week, it kind of bugged me what an out and out psychopath Sorry was while under Dancer's possession. The scene that particularly bugs me is when Whiskeyjack is recalling how Sorry was torturing some prisoners just for the hell of it, and Kalam had to step in and finish them quickly to spare them the pain.

This just doesn't tally with the Dancer we see. He's a stone cold killer, sure, but like with Kalam and Rallick there's no indication that he kills for anything other than practical purposes. There's flashes of humanity in him, to the point where it sometimes feels like he's trying to reign in Shadowthrone's more insane side.

Is this just a consequence of SE taking the character in a different direction? I also thought that maybe rather than directly possessing Sorry, he more kind of instilled a killer instinct in her, but there's a few scenes where it's suggested he's more directly controlling her than that.

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 27 May 2010 - 09:55 AM

[Silencer]

Well, I'd say it's a mix between GotMism and character development. Both Cotillion and ST admit that Sorry was a mistake, and I think that the experience Cotillion had while pursuing that particular line changed him somewhat. The change is too dramatic to be consistent, sure, but if you ignore the anecdote Sorry was not that brutal in what we see - the BB's were just terrified of her and she was very remote and cold, which meshes with Dancer as he appears pre-ascension...and remember he doesn't want people figuring out who he is, so he's not going to be his recognisable self.

[Kanubis]

Silencer, on 27 May 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Well, I'd say it's a mix between GotMism and character development. Both Cotillion and ST admit that Sorry was a mistake, and I think that the experience Cotillion had while pursuing that particular line changed him somewhat. The change is too dramatic to be consistent, sure, but if you ignore the anecdote Sorry was not that brutal in what we see - the BB's were just terrified of her and she was very remote and cold, which meshes with Dancer as he appears pre-ascension...and remember he doesn't want people figuring out who he is, so he's not going to be his recognisable self.

Yep, it's just that particular scene really, like you say there's no other references to Apsalar actually doing anything else outright 'evil' - Paran was a practical matter, and the jerk outside the Phoenix Inn seemed like he had it coming anyway.


To be honest, I recall someone (Tattersail) saying that Kalam clearly enjoyed killing, which doesn't really tally with the developed character either. 

[Gothos]

Well, in Night of Knives, Cottilion is something of a mad maniac similar to Kellanved, at least that's how I saw him. It could be that the Apsalar experience tempered him. His possession of her changed her life dramatically, and similarly, it changed him as well. Character development, a bit too rapid, but there it is.

[Silencer]

I was avoiding mention of NoK stuff for spoiler reasons, but yes, he is more...well, less sympathetic in NoK. Much more willing to do whatever it takes. And then there's how many years between NoK and GotM?

[eiji]

Cottilion isnt the only one inside her. that old witch was nasty as hell she could be the nasty bit.

efficiency is cots master he wouldnt waste time torturing people

This post has been edited by eiji: 27 May 2010 - 10:58 AM

[Kanubis]

Silencer, on 27 May 2010 - 10:28 AM, said:

I was avoiding mention of NoK stuff for spoiler reasons, but yes, he is more...well, less sympathetic in NoK. Much more willing to do whatever it takes. And then there's how many years between NoK and GotM?

Well yes, but still to achieve an actual purpose. Still not 'Imma gonna mutilate these prisoner's nutsacks for a laugh' psycho.


Mind you, that's another thing that plays on my mind. If early Ammanas and Dancer were such raving nutjobs, how did they inspire such loyalty from seemingly honourable folk like Urko, Nok and especially Dujek and Daseem?

[Kanubis]

eiji, on 27 May 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Cottilion isnt the only one inside her. that old witch was nasty as hell she could be the nasty bit.

Cottili

Eh.. now that's a good point. She protected Sorry's mind from some of the horror she was inflicting, but as I recall she was a bit of a mentalist hater when it came to soldiers and men and stuff?

[eiji]

i remember her hating the army and the empire big time

[Gothos]

Could be that the witch was the part cutting up crotches then

[Silencer]

And Cotillion didn't notice this sudden TOTAL CONTROL OF BODY power sneaking up from the depths? That seems unlikely.

Regards the loyalty thing, Dancer practically was a ghost, as far as everyday population was concerned, and freaked the shit out of everyone who did know of him. Fear is a good substitute for loyalty. Plus Ammanas exuded power, and while insane got things done. I'm pretty sure everyone in the inner circle knew him well enough that they thought they could manipulate him into getting a positive result out of his nigh-insanity. Most of the military was loyal to Dassem or the Empire rather than the person at its head, as was Tayschrenn, and the rest were pretty much following orders and trying to keep things sane. Just from my reading of the thing, anyway.

[MTS]

There's a quote somewhere that says K&D inspired loyalty, but never devotion, so you're right Silencer.

[eiji]

Silencer, on 27 May 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

And Cotillion didn't notice this sudden TOTAL CONTROL OF BODY power sneaking up from the depths? That seems unlikely.

Regards the loyalty thing, Dancer practically was a ghost, as far as everyday population was concerned, and freaked the shit out of everyone who did know of him. Fear is a good substitute for loyalty. Plus Ammanas exuded power, and while insane got things done. I'm pretty sure everyone in the inner circle knew him well enough that they thought they could manipulate him into getting a positive result out of his nigh-insanity. Most of the military was loyal to Dassem or the Empire rather than the person at its head, as was Tayschrenn, and the rest were pretty much following orders and trying to keep things sane. Just from my reading of the thing, anyway.

Its not that he didnt notice i just think he didnt care. it didnt effect him or his mission so why get involved. are you telling me that in the years Cots was possesing sorry that his attention was on her 100 percent of the time. I imagined he was in contact with ST a lot of the time there was more than one game going on, slieght of hand is mentioned alot.

how is the Malazan game pro comming?

[Silencer]

I think Cotillion would have cared if someone else was interfering with his possession. That's a direct risk to the mission. And I don't think possession like Cotillion did it is something you turn on and off to divert your attention.

Game is slow going, RL issues affecting the entire team on and off, plus it's a huge task.

[eiji]

Silencer, on 27 May 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think Cotillion would have cared if someone else was interfering with his possession. That's a direct risk to the mission. And I don't think possession like Cotillion did it is something you turn on and off to divert your attention.

Game is slow going, RL issues affecting the entire team on and off, plus it's a huge task.

Depends how direct he felt he needed to be. i dont want to spoiler too much but ST was known for spreading himself thin. But i hear where your comming from... I agree he would of cared if he knew or could do anything about it.

end of the day he is a god sympathetic by their standards but he must have a ruthless streak otherwise he wouldnt of ascended.

im gona reread NOK its the only book i havent reread multiple times i cant remember how sick dancer goes in it.


I understand its going to be slow........ just patiently waiting

[worry]

Could be he just changed her far too extremely...it wasn't like a direct possession, it was that he created a tool in her. He just sharpened her a little too much...selfishly and unthinkingly. They are relatively young ascendants after all, mistakes happen. And afterward he had some regret, and tempered it down a bit.

[Aptorian]

Returning to the Sorry/Apsalar matter. There is cause to think that Sorry's nasty side comes from Apsalar herself and not Cotillion. Consider that she was nothing but a child when Cotillion turned her into a murderer. In a young age that has a terrible toll on the way you develop. She didn't stop being a nasty bitch when the possession ended. In DG when Fid is masquerading as a Gral and Crukus and Aps play married couple, she is seen slicing people up (going for the balls I believe) and leaving her marks to writhe on the ground in pain instead of just dispatching them. Likewise in BH she is shown to inflict pain on one of the henchmen she attacks in the company with Telorast and Curdle. She does it with no regard for the victim.

As for the debate of the way Kel and Dancer ruled the empire. Yes, they were scary bastards for sure that struck fear and awe in their enemies and allies alike, but it's not like they were incompetent or a danger to their own empire. Kelanved was a mad genious. Easily one of the greatest minds in the modern history of this world. Dassem may have been good with armies but Kelanved was good with EVERYTHING. Military, Economy, Religion, Magic, he had everyone by the balls and he had an accomplice in Dancer that was his equal in scheming and strategy and a much more dangerous man in the field. The Old Guard followed the two not just because they were scary but because they were capable. Nobody was better than those two. Perhaps with the exception of Prince Kazz and his Avowed, but then again RCG painted a very strange picture of the Prince.

[worry]

That's a good point, Apt. She wasn't chosen on accident. Perhaps it was Cots who didn't know what he was getting into with her, and perhaps when they touched minds so to speak, it was his (very relative) goodness that gave her pause, and not the other way around. They both have suspect consciences, but it's hard to say who blunted whose sadistic streaks.

[Wampyry]

Cotillion did not know or realize that another spirit possessed Sorry so perhaps he was sometimes lax. Not until Darujhistan did Cotillion find out about Rigga, the Wax-Witch-Seer.

Sorry talking to WhiskeyJack about Kruppe:
He is a talent. WJ, like a Seer? Sorry winced and answered I believe so with a trembling voice. She follows Kruppe.
The word Seer made her feel as if her brain had burst open. The pain waning she heard herself murmur, I am Cotillion, Patron of Assassins.
The Seer is dead!

Maybe the Wax-Witch had control of Sorry's action at times. She was a mean-spirited nasty old hag who lost three husbands and two sons to the wars. She bitches about being cold in winter; cold in bed. Rigga would gladly torture prisoners without any qualms.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 28 May 2010 - 01:45 AM

[Verjigorm]

I always pictured the possession in a way of imprinting certain needed aspects of Cot's personality/knowledge on Apsalar, not a direct control of every single action.

In BH you can see the guilt that Cot feels related to possessing Apsalar, so it seemed to me that he wasn't fully aware what his imprint would envoke.

This could also explain, why Apsalar had a general direction for her actions defined by Cot in the imprint, but the wax witch had more control of direct emotions etc.