[Aptorian]

Well, I could imagine that the cards that a reader posses are special. I bet they can "transform" during a reading, the picture on them changing to depict the person in the position. But I don't think that an average deck can just have sex with itself and produce a new card out of thin air.

[Abyss]

haroos, on 21 May 2010 - 08:28 PM, said:

no, you're mistaken.

about coltaine - you're right that he is more than human, his nature is unexplained.
but saying that he is en route to ascendency is speculation, nothing more.

Last i checked i'm not the author (and as he remains wily my attempts to consume his brainz and absorb his skillz are unfulfilled). But it's speculation based on the hints SE has dropped in more than once. I am by no means insisting that i am right and all others should bow down before my massive Malaz-E-Penis... but i've got some points to back me up and it appears that you have...

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except coltaine, who is a member of a race that is uniqe on it's own, and is not mentioned as ascendent or anything.

and

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...my personal theory is that the entire wickan people were once an elder god , kind of like the bridgeburners are all together one ascendent.
coltaine is the heart of them or ... something.

...or something. Yes.

So here's where my speculation is coming from...

We know that the Wickans have a form of spirit worship rather than warrens. Nil uses spirits to tunnel into the Semk camp during a raid, and to waken the dead at another point in DG. They still use warrens, by example they access a memory warren to take out the Semk god at an earlier point, but it's not the classic Mage-uses-warrens thing.

There's also an element of ancestor worship and reincarnation, as we see that Sorno and others are recycled souls, and Bult and then Nether's grandmother showing up at one point in HoC and TB.

We've seen nothing to link the Wickans to any Elder God. Badass warriors, yes. Effective mages, mostly. Ascendents as a whole - nope. nor are they linked to any non-human race the way Barghast (Imass, T3) and the Shake (Tiste everything, KC) are.

The Bridgeburners are an entire company ascended. Many different aspects - Raraku, their own legendary status, the Tanno song, Moon's Spawn's inhenrent magic, Rake's wards, Paran's blessing, Hood's use - are all combined in them, plus other fun stuff like Whiskeyjack being worshipped. This is stated a few times. They aren't a single entity, rather, they are an extended group of souls linked to a single purpose or aspect any more than the Tlan Imass, the Avowed, the Nameless Ones, the Claw or the Seguleh are. Common purpose, common origin, common power source perhaps, but that's as far as it goes. Hedge acted alone. Mallet came and went even though he wasn't dead yet. The Hounds of Shadow are seven/five distinct ascendents with a common origin and aspect. So are the Unbound. The Company of Shadow wasn't ascended in any obvious way except that it served shadow, but it got a Card in the deck. Even Oponn is two separate individuals sharing an aspect.


Which brings me to main main point in the larger thread - there is NO hard and fast rule for ascendency or godhood or a position in any House or a reference in a Deck reading. All of these things can be many things and can overlap or be in no way related and just for good measure they can change.

So when we're debating whether Laseen COULD ascend, the only point to keep in mind is that she was a player and a power and had a mjor effect of many things, and THAT, could, maybe, lead to some form of ascension to another form, aspect or role. But it doesn't have to.

Whether Laseen SHOULD ascend, well, whether you fall on the 'Laseen is a horrible failure and should only ascend in the loose bowels of a diarrhetic bird which devoured her remains so she can be shat down again', or the 'holy fuck she RULES' side, i think there's enough evidence to show that SE and ICE have set up a wild enough system that it's possible. There are a few reasons i've mentioned elsethread why she probably won't, but there it is.

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...anyway, in all cases that we have seen, people who ascended (or close to it) came in touch with a higher power, a warren itself ... whatever.

She spents decades strolling in and out of the Deadhouse. She was there the night Kellanved and Dancer ascended. She routinely used otataral and aspected weapons and mages and so on. She kicked an Avowed hard enough to break his neck with her bare feet. She ran the Malazan Empire. Perhaps into the ground tho hints suggest not.

- Abyss, hasn't given this any thought or anything...

[Jurble]

Most Ascendants seem to Ascend through simply being bad ass. They level up like in an rpg. But they never actually die, dying like resets their EXP bar. Itkovian became a God (and thus an Ascendant) after he died via worship. But an Ascendant is not a God, even though a God is an Ascendant. The way I see it, the only way to Ascend after dying is to get worshipers. You can Ascend while alive via bad-ass-ness, and then impress people (like Dassem did) into worshipping you, and then you're a God too. But if you're dead already, only worship is gonna get you to anywhere. And not all Ascendants are represented in a Deck, the Deck deals with Deities and their Houses, the Unaligned cards just happen to tell you which non-God Ascendant is involved in a given situation, but they can change.

Like

Step 1. Be awesome
Step 2. Level up and become an Ascendant
Step 3. Impress people, they begin to worship you, whether you want it or not, boom God.
Step 4. Enter a Warren, kill its inhabitants, and claim it as your own. You could also find an empty warren or something.
Step 5. Do God shit.
Example: Dassem (though he hasn't done step 4 or 5 yet)

or

Step 1. Die awesomely
Step 2. Get Worshiped
Step 3. Become a God and an Ascendant at the same time.
Step 4. Find a Warren, or Don't. Not my problem, but your priests probably want magical powers.
Step 5. Do God shit.
Example: Itkovian

or

Step 1. Make an Empire as a cover to explore Azath Houses with your best bud
Step 2. Explore Azath Houses
Step 3. Figure out shit.
Step 4. Ascend
Step 5. Grab a Warren, preferably a piece of Tiste Edur Warren, 'cuz why not?
Step 6. Get a black guy to be one of your High Priests. Also an insane old guy.
Step 7. Black guy fills himself up with other people's souls, and saves the world every other day - but still hangs around with a military for whatever reason. Insane guy writes your Holy Book for you.
Step 8. ???
Step 9. Profit
Example: Kellanved and Dancer

Those seem to be the ways Gods or Ascendants have done it as far as we have seen.

wait there's also

Step 1. Magical Boat Ride
Step 2. Annealed Flames of Kurald Thyrllan
Step 3. Ascend
Step 4. Lizards
Example: Gesler Stormy, and that dude who ran into that fire in the one book and died

And
Step 1. Your Emperor turns you into a giant Tiger
Step 2. Go Wild, you're a giant Tiger. You Ascend too, because people are like "Whoa, a giant Tiger, holy shit. We better honor him as a sacred Ancestor or something. First hero."
Step 3. You die.
Step 4. Hey, Fener's gone, might as well take his place.
Step 5. Godhood!
Example: Trake

This post has been edited by Jurble: 22 June 2010 - 11:52 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i would agree with you, but with that caveat that no two ascendants/gods have the same amount or type of steps