[foolio]

Seguleh, it seems as if we are reading different books. Everything Laseen did, to me, seems like a shortsighted power monger. She attempts to assasinate her way to the top, including purging officers that the empire couldnt do without. Tell me what selfless, empire first need she was serving when she tried to have DU assasinated? And maybe instead of getting herself in dire straights and needing some hairbrained scheme to save the empire by allying with mallick rel and the traitorous korbolo dom she could have actually effected the outcome of the COD for the better by sending waves of claws into the rebels camp. God knows she had them to spare. Oh, thats right, she was saving those claws to get decimated by Kalam while trying to murder her own adjunct. I swear I just dont get it. i really dont understand how we are all reading the same books yet there are so many pro laseen people. And i am really not trying to be ugly about the whole thing but am just speechless.

This post has been edited by foolio: 20 May 2010 - 09:01 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

foolio, on 20 May 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

Seguleh, it seems as if we are reading different books. Everything Laseen did, to me, seems like a shortsighted power monger. She attempts to assasinate her way to the top, including purging officers that the empire couldnt do without. Tell me what selfless, empire first need she was serving when she tried to have DU assasinated? And maybe instead of getting herself in dire straights and needing some hairbrained scheme to save the empire by allying with mallick rel and the traitorous korbolo dom she could have actually effected the outcome of the COD for the better by sending waves of claws into the rebels camp. God knows she had them to spare. Oh, thats right, she was saving those claws to get decimated by Kalam while trying to murder her own adjunct. I swear I just dont get it. i really dont understand how we are all reading the same books yet there are so many pro laseen people. And i am really not trying to be ugly about the whole thing but am just speechless.

Its cool. That's the beauty of reading a great series with highly fascinating characters that are not written in black and white. We can choose to see things how we want. You see a woman hellbent on power, i see one that made alot of questionable decisions for what she belived was in the best interest of Empire. Also, let me clarify that when i say "Empire", i'm not saying that she is interested necessarily in its actual subjects. I'm not that crazy to think she actually cares about its people, for the most part anyways. Her name means Thronemaster after all, if i have it right. Its the idea of Empire and the power it represents that i am of the opinion is her ultimate purpose. Thus she is doing what she can to preserve that. In my opinion of course.

Also, a few posts back we had some inquiries about possible House slots opening up. What about Fiddler's reading? How much should we look into that for all the positions being snatched up? Or is it still much specualting at this point, since we know that the rules can and do change regarding Ascendancy (just thinking about the who is who between Baudin and The Seguleh 2nd thing as KOD gives me headaches....)

[worry]

Do you believe that Laseen has "all along" been managing the home front portion of the long game for ST/Cots? As in, even her "mistakes" have all been purposeful to whatever end they seek?

[The Seguleh 46th]

The Seguleh 46th, on 20 May 2010 - 09:41 PM, said:

foolio, on 20 May 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

Seguleh, it seems as if we are reading different books. Everything Laseen did, to me, seems like a shortsighted power monger. She attempts to assasinate her way to the top, including purging officers that the empire couldnt do without. Tell me what selfless, empire first need she was serving when she tried to have DU assasinated? And maybe instead of getting herself in dire straights and needing some hairbrained scheme to save the empire by allying with mallick rel and the traitorous korbolo dom she could have actually effected the outcome of the COD for the better by sending waves of claws into the rebels camp. God knows she had them to spare. Oh, thats right, she was saving those claws to get decimated by Kalam while trying to murder her own adjunct. I swear I just dont get it. i really dont understand how we are all reading the same books yet there are so many pro laseen people. And i am really not trying to be ugly about the whole thing but am just speechless.

Its cool. That's the beauty of reading a great series with highly fascinating characters that are not written in black and white. We can choose to see things how we want. You see a woman hellbent on power, i see one that made alot of questionable decisions for what she belived was in the best interest of Empire. Also, let me clarify that when i say "Empire", i'm not saying that she is interested necessarily in its actual subjects. I'm not that crazy to think she actually cares about its people, for the most part anyways. Her name means Thronemaster after all, if i have it right. Its the idea of Empire and the power it represents that i am of the opinion is her ultimate purpose. Thus she is doing what she can to preserve that. In my opinion of course. Editing to add once again that i still believe almost all of this is still a game being played on a grand scale by her former boss. Dassem needing to be "gone", the Old Guard being expendable, stuff like that. Dom and Rel i think were accidents, but became assets after the 7C plague debacle, IMO.

Also, a few posts back we had some inquiries about possible House slots opening up. What about Fiddler's reading? How much should we look into that for all the positions being snatched up? Or is it still much specualting at this point, since we know that the rules can and do change regarding Ascendancy (just thinking about the who is who between Baudin and The Seguleh 2nd thing as KOD gives me headaches....)

[The Seguleh 46th]

worrywort, on 20 May 2010 - 09:46 PM, said:

Do you believe that Laseen has "all along" been managing the home front portion of the long game for ST/Cots? As in, even her "mistakes" have all been purposeful to whatever end they seek?

I think she's human (Napans are human, aren't they?) is all. She is a master manipulator, but also simply made some real errors in judgement. I think at the time of BH, she really did want Kalam to rid her of the Rel/Dom menace, but had a backup plan in place should he decide not to accept her offer. She needed Tavore's army elsewhere, but you can't just allow an entire army to vacant the Imperial control and expect the masses to sit quietly once they hear of it. Blood needed to spill. From the way i read it as well, Claws seem to be the very most expendable asset in this entire series, as they are like ants. Dying in droves and still manage to stick around, lol. I don't know. I just think she is probably one of the very most shrewd players in this game, a mind that rivals, and i think is in concert with her old boss Kel. That's all. For all i know, i could be completely wrong, but i like that SE/ICE has written these characters in a way that we can all have wildly differing views of what is what!

[worry]

Ah I see. I've been thinking of ascending myself someday, so any information is appreciated!

[foolio]

Quote

Its cool. That's the beauty of reading a great series with highly fascinating characters that are not written in black and white. We can choose to see things how we want. You see a woman hellbent on power, i see one that made alot of questionable decisions for what she belived was in the best interest of Empire.

Amen dude. I would be curious to know the percentages of people in these forums that feel one way or the other on this issue. I think I am more surprised than anything. If I didnt visit this site i would probably be blindly assuming that most people felt the same way I did....

[haroos]

Abyss, on 20 May 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

haroos, on 20 May 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:

...besides coltain ... nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall...

DG, mmpb, p. 599 Coltaine breaks Gesler's nose.

nope, that was a referece to gesler not coltaine.
duiker muses that if coltaine can break gesler's nose, then "what does that make of him ?"
but there is no place where it is said that coltaine ascended or is one already, in fact i think that one of the twins
said that the wikkans can't ascned.

[Abyss]

haroos, on 21 May 2010 - 06:55 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 May 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

haroos, on 20 May 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:

...besides coltain ... nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall...

DG, mmpb, p. 599 Coltaine breaks Gesler's nose.

...duiker muses that if coltaine can break gesler's nose, then "what does that make of him ?"
but there is no place where it is said that coltaine ascended or is one already...

I was going to just post but then i decided that was a dick thing to do so instead i'm going to actually respond. and try to clarify...

My original point was that by virtue of what he accomplished, Coltaine was starting to ascend. Not ascended, but getting there. As in he was already more than mere human.

Gesler passed through the fires of Tellan of something. This caused him to become more than human.

Coltaine broke his nose. No mere human would have been able to break Gesler's nose. Coltaine did.

Duiker and the twins witness this, and then Duiker does in fact muse as you quote. And the point of his musing is that Coltaine has become more than human.

The 'Wickans reiterate' thing is something else - a conversation Nil and Nether have stating that Wickan souls can be reincarnated as Sorno and in fact Nil and Nether themselves were.



As to the rest of the discussion, the point is not whether Laseen was a genius or a bumbling failure. The point is whether, by dint of what she did and people's impressions of her, she could ascend.

The debate is wide open, because all we have to go on is Coltaine as an example of someone who ALMOST ascended strictly based on being a sheer badass who made the impossible possible ( Although it's been implied that something similar happened to Dassem even before Hood invested him).

At the end of RCG, Possum and various others are utterly in awe of Laseen, in a complete Holy Crap Did She Just DO THAT kind of way, right or wrongly. Now i doubt that in itself is enough to propel her soul to godhood, but then again, Trake was a nutbar soletaken wandering around the desert in tiger form licking himself and picking stupid fights with lizards, with an almost non-existent following and he became God of War for about a whole thirty minutes or so...

- Abyss, has had weekends like that...

[Illuyankas]

Possum is astounded by his own reflection in mirrors, his ability to think is subpar. And Rel is going to come down on Laseen cults like the hypocritical motherfucker that he is, except more effectively then Laseen was with Fener's dudes. By which I mean without it coming back to bite him in the ass.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 21 May 2010 - 07:17 PM, said:

At the end of RCG, Possum and various others are utterly in awe of Laseen, in a complete Holy Crap Did She Just DO THAT kind of way, right or wrongly. Now i doubt that in itself is enough to propel her soul to godhood, but then again, Trake was a nutbar soletaken wandering around the desert in tiger form licking himself and picking stupid fights with lizards, with an almost non-existent following and he became God of War for about a whole thirty minutes or so...

- Abyss, has had weekends like that...

I think this is the crux of the argument, because I can't wrap my head around her ascending because of her leadership skills like Coltaine considering nobody really likes her or reveres her. But like I said earlier I think its very possible that she may have ascended (or been given a position in a house) because of her many years living in an azath and martial prowess.

@Illy: Yea Possum may not be the toughest person to astound, but Lasseen pretty much wowed Kiska and Shimmer and all the Avowed and Claws that she pwned.

[haroos]

Abyss, on 21 May 2010 - 07:17 PM, said:

haroos, on 21 May 2010 - 06:55 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 May 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

haroos, on 20 May 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:

...besides coltain ... nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall...

DG, mmpb, p. 599 Coltaine breaks Gesler's nose.

...duiker muses that if coltaine can break gesler's nose, then "what does that make of him ?"
but there is no place where it is said that coltaine ascended or is one already...

I was going to just post but then i decided that was a dick thing to do so instead i'm going to actually respond. and try to clarify...

My original point was that by virtue of what he accomplished, Coltaine was starting to ascend. Not ascended, but getting there. As in he was already more than mere human.

Gesler passed through the fires of Tellan of something. This caused him to become more than human.

Coltaine broke his nose. No mere human would have been able to break Gesler's nose. Coltaine did.

Duiker and the twins witness this, and then Duiker does in fact muse as you quote. And the point of his musing is that Coltaine has become more than human.

The 'Wickans reiterate' thing is something else - a conversation Nil and Nether have stating that Wickan souls can be reincarnated as Sorno and in fact Nil and Nether themselves were.



As to the rest of the discussion, the point is not whether Laseen was a genius or a bumbling failure. The point is whether, by dint of what she did and people's impressions of her, she could ascend.

The debate is wide open, because all we have to go on is Coltaine as an example of someone who ALMOST ascended strictly based on being a sheer badass who made the impossible possible ( Although it's been implied that something similar happened to Dassem even before Hood invested him).

At the end of RCG, Possum and various others are utterly in awe of Laseen, in a complete Holy Crap Did She Just DO THAT kind of way, right or wrongly. Now i doubt that in itself is enough to propel her soul to godhood, but then again, Trake was a nutbar soletaken wandering around the desert in tiger form licking himself and picking stupid fights with lizards, with an almost non-existent following and he became God of War for about a whole thirty minutes or so...

- Abyss, has had weekends like that...

no, you're mistaken.

about coltaine - you're right that he is more than human, his nature is unexplained.
but saying that he is en route to ascendency is speculation, nothing more.

about laseen - she was skilled, as was dancer, but unlike dancer she wasn't a high mage, wasn't in contant with the assath or any other form of supernatural
world changing entity.

and the proof of that is trake himself, whose death by the lizzard gave birth to his ascendency at the will of k'rul, who spoke with him,
telling him at the moment of death to let go, since he will change (i don't remembed what he said exactly).

anyway, in all cases that we have seen, people who ascended (or close to it) came in touch with a higher power, a warren itself ... whatever.

except coltaine, who is a member of a race that is uniqe on it's own, and is not mentioned as ascendent or anything.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

haroos, on 21 May 2010 - 08:28 PM, said:

no, you're mistaken.

about coltaine - you're right that he is more than human, his nature is unexplained.
but saying that he is en route to ascendency is speculation, nothing more

I'm not sure what you mean here...you are conceding that he is more than human, but summarily dismissing the fact that he was on the verge of ascendancy as mere speculation? What else could be the case? Simply put, ascendancy seems to be when a member of a certain race has surpassed the typical skill/power levels of that race.

Quote

about laseen - she was skilled, as was dancer, but unlike dancer she wasn't a high mage, wasn't in contant with the assath or any other form of supernatural
world changing entity.

Lasseen lived in an Azath (Deadhouse in Malaz city) with Kellanved, Dancer and the rest of the Old Guard for years before they built their empire. She didn't disappear for 2 years mapping out all of the Azath if that's what you meant, but she certainly had access to it. If you need some evidence that she was alive before the empire was founded, over a hundred years ago.

[Aptorian]

Oh. My. God. Haroos.

Read these two entries:

http://encyclopediam...ks.com/Coltaine

http://encyclopediam...ltaine-ascended

The Wickans are just human beings. They are not a separate race. They are a mortal human people.

Coltaine is the first and best example of human beings ascending (only Wickans don't ascend, they just reiterate), through sheer badassitude. Coltaine is transcending human limitations. His strength of will, his determination, his skill. His presence and the ordeal of the Chain of Dogs is pushing him into Ascendancy.

Unfortunately I can't find the Gesler Vs Coltaine passage on the wiki, so let me transcribe it:

Deadhouse Gates, p. 672:

Quote

Animated for the first time and still laughing, Coltaine spun to the corporal. "And what would Cartheron Crust have said to that, soldier?"
"He'd have punched me in the -"
Gesler got no further as Coltaine's fist lashed out and caught the corporal flush on the nose. The marine's head snapped back, his feet leaving the ground. He fell on his back with a heavy thud. Coltaine wheeled around, clutching his hand as if he'd just connected with a stone wall.
Sormo stepped forward and grasped the Fist's wrist to examine the hand. "Spirit's below, it's shattered!"
All eyes swung to the supine corporal, who now sat up, blood gushing from his nose.
Both Nil and Nether hissed, lurching back from the man. Duiker grasped Nether's shoulder and pulled her around.
"What is it, lass? What's wrong-"
Nil answered, his voice in a whisper. "That blood - That man has almost ascended!"
Gesler did not hear the comment. His gaze was on Coltaine. "I guess I'll take that promotion now, Fist," he said through split lips.
"-almost ascended. Yet the fist..." Both Warlocks now stared at Coltaine, and for the first time Duiker could clearly see the awe in their expressions.
Coltaine cracked open Gesler's face. Gesler, a man on the edge of Ascendancy... and into what? The historian thought back to Stormy and Truth manning the dory's sweeps... their extraordinary strength, and the tale of the burning warren. Abyss below, all three of them... And... Coltaine?

No, it is not outright stated that Coltaine is semi-ascendant, but it's right there between the lines for you to grasp.

EDIT: By the way, if someone has an account on the wiki, feel free to add the above passage to the "Has Coltaine ascended" entry. Maybe the Gesler one as well, just for good measure.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 21 May 2010 - 09:38 PM

[T'renn]

Spoiler

Ascension, for Laseen, maybe a Queen for high house shadow ?

Spoiler

Also, Tayschrenn has disappeared, thrown in a chaotic warren, maybe he'll find even more power. There is no god of FIRE, is there ?

[Aptorian]

Sinn appears to be some kind of fire goddess. Gesler and Stormy might also have some new slots open for them in the new new pantheon.

[The Seguleh 46th]

What position would Coltaine acquire via Ascendency if he did, for all hypothetical purposes here? Curious as to theories here. And Laseen for that matter as well, if ya wanna! Still kinda wondering as well about Fid's reading, as so many "job assingments" seemingly got handed out to the various players, but i just don't see how all of them could end up meeting their respective futures. Would that reading have counted as a converange of sorts? Power drawing power and the long hard road they have ahead of them......Christ, i really don't know what i just wrote here. Sigh.....i'm confused now! Anyways......someone smarter than me (the entire forum) please humor me with some mad theories if ya want!

[The Seguleh 46th]

I like your thoughts there in spoiler IHM Tayschrenn!

[The Seguleh 46th]

Aptorian, on 21 May 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Sinn appears to be some kind of fire goddess. Gesler and Stormy might also have some new slots open for them in the new new pantheon.

Was just gonna ask if MS/DES/SA could become gods or Ascendants, but then i remembered the obvious one in Itkovian (although he seems like the weakest god of them all, weaker than most mere mortals for that matter). Yet their master, Fener, had essentially "died" for all intents and purposes. Seems hard for them to accomplish to me, as those people serve their respective gods/aspects. Also, would Ges and Stormy's relationship with the seemingly "godless" KCCM possibly limit them in some way though? I doubt it personally, but just wondering aloud here anyhow.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 21 May 2010 - 10:09 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 09:59 PM, said:

What position would Coltaine acquire via Ascendency if he did, for all hypothetical purposes here?

What do you mean by position? Ascending doesn't mean you necessarily become a god or gain a place in a House or a card in the Deck.