[eiji]

im well aware the series is called the fallen. There are a lot of spaces either unnamed or not taken in the Deck Of Dragons. So out of the fallen who should ascend.?

Just going to throw a few out.

Ullen
Laseen
Toc the elder
Keneb

ive got more but ill see what other people think.

oh and what happened to jorrick sharplance i thought he was going to make an apperance in ROtCG

This post has been edited by eiji: 19 May 2010 - 05:15 PM

[Aptorian]

WHOAH, edit the list of dead people or put a spoiler on them fast! A warning in the title header might be a god idea as well.

There are people who haven't read RCG who come in here occasionally.

Spoiler

Laseens death is a big event

EDIT: Back on topic.

We know very little about how the Deck of Dragons actually functions, but one thing we do know is that the roles and the title holders fluctuate. Things like King/Queen and Knight seem, for the most part anyway, to be fixed positions, but the other titles in a house are not set in stone. Anyone, in any situation may full fill a role in a house. A farmer in a field facing a group of bandits could become Soldier of Life or Spinner of Death, or what ever other title might fit with his predicament and the warrens abound.

Also, you don't need to ascend to have a position in a house, whether it is a permanent one or temporary.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 19 May 2010 - 05:14 PM

[eiji]

hopefuly that will be enough of a warning.

I like the idea that people ascend into a title Deck finds. those with enough power or will/drive ambition force the decks hand a little. Plus it ruins the post a bit if its just people who come back from the dead for no reason at all, Unlike baudin for example

[worry]

Toc the Elder is going right into the beast hold, he's in charge of the horsies.

[haroos]

eiji, on 19 May 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

im well aware the series is called the fallen. There are a lot of spaces either unnamed or not taken in the Deck Of Dragons. So out of the fallen who should ascend.?

Just going to throw a few out.

Ullen
Laseen
Toc the elder
Keneb

ive got more but ill see what other people think.

oh and what happened to jorrick sharplance i thought he was going to make an apperance in ROtCG

ascendents so far have gotten to become what they were by accident or intent.
it always involved events that are not natural.

why would laseen ascend ?
or the others ?

[Aptorian]

haroos, on 19 May 2010 - 06:39 PM, said:

why would laseen ascend ?
or the others ?

Because she was fucking awesome that is why. She's a pretty cool gal, eh kills Avowed with her feet and doesn't afraid of anything.

Laseen has proven herself to be a mortal of extraordinary talents. If her pure natural asskicking ability and her stay in the Deadhouse wasn't enough to push her towards ascension then perhaps a God would take note of her and chose her for a new role. Perhaps a rival ascendant to Shadowthrone's control of shadow might recruit her. It would be beautiful.

[Abyss]

Just to be clear...

SPOILERS SPOILERS MASSIVE HUGE RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD SPOILERS
SERIOUSLY SPOILERS
DO NOT FUCKING READ THIS UNLESS YOU SPOILERS

WANT RCG COMFUCKINGLETELY SPOILERS SPOILED FOR YOU
SPOILERS SPOILERS
LAST CHANCE SPOILERS

OK SUCKS TO BE SPOILERS YOU
SPOILERS

'why should Laseen ascend?'. One word: Coltaine.

honestly.... RCG SPOILERS... last warning...

Half way thru DG we learned that Coltaine was on his way to ascension. Why? Not because he flew through a warren, not because a god invested him, not because a warren chose him or a ritual went wrong or frikkin cosmic gamma rays or what have you... Coltaine was ascending because for for six or so months he led a hideously outnumbered army across a frikkin desert protecting 30k useless refugees from more or less an entire continent worth of fanatic killers... and it looked like he was going to pull it off. The soldiers, the refugees, the bloody enemy, NONE of them thought he could do it and ALL of them started to believe he could do it, and THAT was sufficient to push a mortal to the brink of being more than mortal. Coltaine was ascending because Coltaine was aspected to BADASS and thousands of thousands of people believed it.

So... Laseen... Laseen took over the Malazan Empire and managed to hold it together against all odds. Laseen came up with a thoroughly cold plan to basically sacrifice thousands of people to put her enemies, the Loyalists, the Crimson Guard, even Mallik Rel and his Black Glove, exactly where she wanted them to be to take them all out.. and it amost worked. Also, Laseen is human, not a mage, and she kills Avowed with her bare hands. And at the moment when everyone realized just how completely she had masterminded EVERYTHING and that the Empire was in fact not being ruled by a complete fucktard but in fact probably the only person who could have pulled it all off... she gets killed.
So is that enough to merit ascension... well, we dunno, but it's not unthinkable.

- Abyss, DID try to warn you.

[Ulrik]

SPOOOILERS from RotCG!!!!!

Really...many of them. You ve been warned. REALLY!

Laseen didnt held anything. Under her rule empire slowly disappeared. She didnt posess enough of charisma or wits. Mallick infiltrated Claw, she promoted solid, but totally unloyal commander to First Sword. In final, she begs Kalam to save her hide. No...she lost everything because of fukin stupid tyranny.

(OK, one gamble was great, I admit - Dujek´s desertion)

After reread Im crushed by people thinking she was great. Nope. She raised her own doom in Mallick. She let die best from malazan empire only because of fear. And when her armies are lost, her Adjunct forced to leave, her best generals dead and her Claw decimated, we should praise her because she can take Avowed down?

If she ascends, only as Tyrant in High House of Fail. Wrong decisions, wrong bets, wrong betrayals. 

"Laseen... Laseen took over the Malazan Empire and managed to hold it together against all odds. Laseen came up with a thoroughly cold plan to basically sacrifice thousands of people to put her enemies, the Loyalists, the Crimson Guard, even Mallik Rel and his Black Glove, exactly where she wanted them to be to take them all out.. and it amost worked" - She sacrifices people thru whole MBoF. Why? Because of fear. From others, from WJ, from Old Guard, from angry mob... Sorry, nothing worthy. Her cold blooded plan has chance only because unpredicted betrayal (OK, predicted, Toc the Elder is by ICE depicted like fool, sorry ICE, this part wasnt good). Only because of luck with one thrown moranth grenado. Too many luck for plan.

Nope. She brought that shit herself. I used comparison with Stalin once and now I realize she really walks his shoes. because of her cleansing, useless officers like Pormqual or Ranall got on high posts. Adn when she realizes that empire is in shit, I should pity her?

Nope, die bitch and hope you are tormented in Abyss...ehm...sorry Abyss

Death to tyrants...especially those lame and without wider view!

[worry]

Now that's passion!

[Illuyankas]

Laseen: "Hmm, I've just been forced into becoming Empress after being manipulated by those bastards Kellanved and Dancer, and I can't even tell my Napan comrades so they're all pretending to die and fleeing after my 'betrayal'. Surely the only way to fix the situation I'm in is to completely and utterly ruin the Empire through 'supposed' misrule and incompetence, to 1. allow the army controlled by whoever ends up having to deal with the CG's heart over in Kolanse - Lorn, probably - an excuse for going with them by making it seem like they aren't welcome here once all the vultures hacking away at the corpse of the Empire notice an army and try to kill or exile it, and 2. get all my enemies in one place by using the weakening Empire as bait and hope that having many, many powerful foes that represent a true threat to the plan working together won't overpower me and leave one or some of them in charge before it's too late. In the meantime I'm going to let Seven Cities die because Laseen doesn't care about black people it'll add to the 'illusion' that I'm incompetent, and then literally throw all of my assets that could help away and guarantee that some of the enemies I'm going to kill millions to defeat will escape, defeating the entire purpose of drawing them here in the first place. How hard can it be?"

Sorry Abyss, but while pretending to look vulnerable is a valid strategy, what Laseen did was the equivalent of hacking off your limbs and head to improve the deception. She was rubbish. Rubbish.

[foolio]

Quote

oh and what happened to jorrick sharplance i thought he was going to make an apperance in ROtCG

Amen bother. I think you and I are the only people upset by him not making an appearance...I was strongly dissapointed. I was expecting him to roll in with a posse of barghast. Huge missed opportunity by ICE.

Quote

why would laseen ascend ?

If fucking up an empire, alienating assets, and being a weasel is a skill, she should assend. Otherwise she should remain worm bait or be in that horrible part of hoods realm the killer of trull sengar was banished to. I am with Illuyankas and Ulrik on this. Especially the thought that Ulrik mentions above, "After reread Im crushed by people thinking she was great."

This post has been edited by foolio: 20 May 2010 - 02:32 PM

[haroos]

Abyss, on 19 May 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

Just to be clear...

SPOILERS SPOILERS MASSIVE HUGE RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD SPOILERS
SERIOUSLY SPOILERS
DO NOT FUCKING READ THIS UNLESS YOU SPOILERS

WANT RCG COMFUCKINGLETELY SPOILERS SPOILED FOR YOU
SPOILERS SPOILERS
LAST CHANCE SPOILERS

OK SUCKS TO BE SPOILERS YOU
SPOILERS

'why should Laseen ascend?'. One word: Coltaine.

honestly.... RCG SPOILERS... last warning...

Half way thru DG we learned that Coltaine was on his way to ascension. Why? Not because he flew through a warren, not because a god invested him, not because a warren chose him or a ritual went wrong or frikkin cosmic gamma rays or what have you... Coltaine was ascending because for for six or so months he led a hideously outnumbered army across a frikkin desert protecting 30k useless refugees from more or less an entire continent worth of fanatic killers... and it looked like he was going to pull it off. The soldiers, the refugees, the bloody enemy, NONE of them thought he could do it and ALL of them started to believe he could do it, and THAT was sufficient to push a mortal to the brink of being more than mortal. Coltaine was ascending because Coltaine was aspected to BADASS and thousands of thousands of people believed it.

So... Laseen... Laseen took over the Malazan Empire and managed to hold it together against all odds. Laseen came up with a thoroughly cold plan to basically sacrifice thousands of people to put her enemies, the Loyalists, the Crimson Guard, even Mallik Rel and his Black Glove, exactly where she wanted them to be to take them all out.. and it amost worked. Also, Laseen is human, not a mage, and she kills Avowed with her bare hands. And at the moment when everyone realized just how completely she had masterminded EVERYTHING and that the Empire was in fact not being ruled by a complete fucktard but in fact probably the only person who could have pulled it all off... she gets killed.
So is that enough to merit ascension... well, we dunno, but it's not unthinkable.

- Abyss, DID try to warn you.

since is being a gifted leader or a gifted politician a "merit" for ascendency ?
ascendency has cosmic effects, what has that to do with mortal abilities ?

besides coltain comes from a people who are re'iterated instead of dying and going through hood's gate, his leadership of the wikans is based
on politics as well as who he is born.
obviously it is a spiritual significance to his people, but nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall.

coltaine aside, since he is a special case, lassen or other mortals don't get points for ascendency, this isn't a game with levels.
ascendency always involved (that we have seen) an unveiling of power through will or circumstances.

the one case that may prove (or disprove) it is dassem who has become an ascendent through cult follwoing that rivaled hood's.

[worry]

laseen should be put inside the deadhouse so her corpse can marry kalam's corpse and they can have lots of little kettles.

[The Seguleh 46th]

I'm going go with Abyss on this one. Who's the one (well, one of the few anyways) person that is seeming to have the entire past, present, and future course of events under intense scrutiny and passable control? Shadowthrone/Kellenvad, with a dash of Cotillion/Dancer thrown in as well. You can't seriously tell me they DIDN'T know what was gonna happen regarding Laseen. I don't think it sounds too crazy to believe that they all (ST/COT/LAS/maybe a handful of others) had this in place for a long time coming. With possibly the Old Guard being kept out of the loop for this future to be able to take place? Or that they simply were not who we wanted to think they were, as far as being highly competent officers, and they were in fact the middling lot that they were potrayed to be. I don't know, not gonna get too crazy with that theory, especially since some are still alive IIRC and might end up with greater roles down the line (and i DO wanna believe that they are competent!). Plus, Laseen is the epitome of putting Empire first. What she did regarding the pogrom against the Wickans may have been atrocious, but considering 7C was a lost cause after Poleil (or is it Soleil.....i get them mixed up) basically plagued the entire continent to a pile of bloated corpses (that was obviously something that could not be planned for IMO), something had to be done to feed the masses. Wickan farmland not being used? A hero hailing from those very lands? A difficult but necessary choice to make. I'm sure she made some bad decisions all throughtout the series, but she is the Empress after all. Choices are never gonna be easy. Cold, highly intelligent, ruthless, and with the Empire at heart in her best interests is my opinion of this extraordinary woman. Bash away ya'll!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 May 2010 - 07:00 PM

[foolio]

how smart was it to jump in Bed(figuratively) with Mallick Rel? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Quote

Plus, Laseen is the epitome of putting Empire first.

Laseen is the epitome of putting Laseen first.

This post has been edited by foolio: 20 May 2010 - 06:58 PM

[Abyss]

haroos, on 20 May 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:

...besides coltain ... nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall...

DG, mmpb, p. 599 Coltaine breaks Gesler's nose.

[foolio]

Abyss, on 20 May 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

haroos, on 20 May 2010 - 03:28 PM, said:

...besides coltain ... nowhere does it say he is half way through ascendency, as far as i can recall...

DG, mmpb, p. 599 Coltaine breaks Gesler's nose.

thanks for that Abyss, I thought for sure I remembered mention of Coltaine being on his way to ascendancy well before the end of the COD....

[The Seguleh 46th]

foolio, on 20 May 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

how smart was it to jump in Bed(figuratively) with Mallick Rel? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Quote

Plus, Laseen is the epitome of putting Empire first.

Laseen is the epitome of putting Laseen first.

Rel is a chain reaction of betrayal walking on two feet. Having him around basically spelled out who would be loyal and who would not. Thus the Claw was divided, and it served notice to Laseen on who could be trusted, IMO. Dom was the incompetent retard she needed for whatever diversionary purpose he essentially was used for.

How do we ever get the idea that she was out for herself? She consistently placed herself in harm's way, made (seemingly) horrific decisions placed on display for EVERYONE to see and scrutinize, and the very fact that she went out to fight Avowed w/o a soul knowing about it says something right there. Please eloborate in how she personally benefits from the insane Chaos known as her daily life? Maybe she is just an adrenaline junkie? Sadist? Huh? Lol.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 20 May 2010 - 07:11 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Guys, if Lasseen was going to ascend just on the basis that she ran the Empire well (for about 10 years? maybe 20?) then why did Dancer and Kellanved need to use the Deadhouse on a night of the shadow moon (or whatever it was called) to ascend? They built an empire out of a bar that conquered half the world. Surely this is more impressive than fighting off the remnants of the Crimson Guard and Talian League?

Now, I think it is possible Lasseen's role in the series (or at least the Malazan Universe) is not finished. With Hood's realm being closed at, or around, the time she kicked it, its possible some god made a deal with her for her services and gave her a position in their house. I know Abyss has some theory about ST and Cotillion collecting assassins (creating Apsalar and Kalam in the Deadhouse) so maybe she could fit in there as well. But on the ascendancy thing: either she was already ascended or on the precipice at the time that she died via her uber assassin skills and years living in the azath, or she wasn't. I don't think her tragic death and victory in a battle is gonna be grounds for ascendancy.

[eiji]

Glad its not just me foolio. I liked what i heard about him.

On the laseen point. I had her moving up not because she ran an empire badly or otherwise. But because of her life as Surly. The clawmaster herself. Kalam indicates she's a master of the assassins arts. Im not sure i would put her blade to blade with dancer, but assassination isnt about a fair fight. I was thinking queen of shadoe but thats got to be Lostara Yil. I see Apsalar in a different role

I was a massive fan of Ullen I dont know why just was. I wouldnt mind him rejoining the series. soldier in the house of life or sumat

Here is a question ive been dying to ask. In the deck of dragons the houses are displayed top eg King down to eg-virgin does the postion of your title represent your power. Or the power released/shared to you by the king of the house

If so it throws up some thoughts about Buadin and the 2nd switch

This post has been edited by eiji: 20 May 2010 - 08:22 PM