[Ulrik]

Do not foget that ascendancy doesnt mean that you automatically got virtual position in some house!

For Coltaine - he was legend, MBoF version of Genis Khan. IMO he ascended...and died and his soul was transferred. Some comes to Hood, some to Togg, some to crows...

[worry]

The beauty of that Coltaine/Gesler scene is that their comrades realize that BOTH men are near-ascendant, and in BOTH cases it's a surprise to everyone. Everyone is double awed by the turn of events, because Gesler is "just" a smartass grunt (or the sailor equivalent), and because Wickans don't traditionally ascend.

[The Seguleh 46th]

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 21 May 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 09:59 PM, said:

What position would Coltaine acquire via Ascendency if he did, for all hypothetical purposes here?

What do you mean by position? Ascending doesn't mean you necessarily become a god or gain a place in a House or a card in the Deck.

Doesn't it though? I mean, look at the Unaligned. I may be wrong, but i'm under the impression that most are filled out with Ascendents of some sort, even if they are not named directly via the Glossary. Brood is something Unaligned (IMO), but never really gets specifically mentioned IIRC. What would be the point of Ascendency if you aren't fulfilling a "role" of some sort? The possibilities to me seem boundless. Aspects such as time, weather, night, day, beer, dance, shoeshining, etc.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 21 May 2010 - 10:17 PM

[worry]

Well, the Deck of Dragons isn't the only deck around, so in a sense that might be right. I think it's kind of unresolved, but doesn't particularly need to be.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 10:15 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 21 May 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 21 May 2010 - 09:59 PM, said:

What position would Coltaine acquire via Ascendency if he did, for all hypothetical purposes here?

What do you mean by position? Ascending doesn't mean you necessarily become a god or gain a place in a House or a card in the Deck.

Doesn't it though? I mean, look at the Unaligned. I may be wrong, but i'm under the impression that most are filled out with Ascendents of some sort, even if they are not named directly via the Glossary. Brood is something Unaligned (IMO), but never really gets specifically mentioned IIRC. What would be the point of Ascendency if you aren't fulfilling a "role" of some sort? The possibilities to me seem boundless. Aspects such as time, weather, night, day, beer, dance, shoeshining, etc.

Well you kinda answered your own question by bringing up the Unaligned. All the Unaligned are is gods and ascendants that do not have a place in a House. So, I guess if Coltaine had indeed lived and ascended he would have been an unaligned, but I wouldn't consider that an aspect.

Also as to the point of ascendancy, I would say that it is power. Most everyone we've seen that has tried to ascend has done so to gain power for themselves. Do you think Kellanved and Dancer wanted to become gods in High House Shadow because they felt the positions needed to be filled? Or just that they were ways for them to procure more power.

[L'oric]

My two cents...

Ascendants do not have to occupy a place in the deck of dragons or the Holds or Tiles. They are just more than mortal with their actions and abilities taking on a significance beyond that of another being.

There are a ton of ways to ascend and you can be powerful and not have ascended, although it seems that if you sustain a certain amoun tof strength/ability long enough you could ascend and eventually be forgotten but still be more powerful than the gods that are around now. See OBO.

There are no RULES for ascendancy. A great tool for a writer IMO. We have seen where characters mention that one of the keys/aides to become one is death but we dont know. We do not see Dassem dying for instance in order to ascend. Paran did die...sort of.

I am starting to wander. Let me finish the ascendancy ideas with the following. In lether there are alot of ascendants all over the place. Every land has similiar amounts. I recently reread a part where the myriad Dal Honese gods come to Balm when he drinks the godbringer honey under Yghetan <sp?> Ascendants will die all the time and some will be reborn and some will settle into the abyss lost forever/until they are found or needed.

Now about Laseen. Her efficacy and ability is one sure way to start an argument. I know. I was and am sure of her horrid inability to Govern an Empire, but she has led an amazing life and could certainly ascend because of it. She was not without a significant amount of power. I like the character the more I have read the series but I like the character for her wretched choices and consistant bungles that she somehow turns to an advantage.

It reminds me of playing Billiards. Sure you can make a shot. You can make a hard shot, but if you dont know how to set up the next two or three shots after the one ya just made your shots become harder and harder until you miss. She was that way. always getting further and further from the easy shots.

Sincerely

[worry]

That billiards analogy is pretty neat. Then again, if a total wiener like the Errant can ascend...it doesn't take a perfect person by any means, or a person with a variety of extraordinary skills. I think the process is probably more reciprocal with magic than some suggest. The fact that people don't "snap" into ascendancy, to borrow some Mistborn terminology, but rather they build towards it and gain extraordinary power along the way even before true ascendancy leaves room for a lot of powerful, essentially super-human (or whatever) individuals. I don't believe Laseen was an Ascendant, but I also don't believe she was merely a human who had honed her skills. She -- as well as Urko for instance -- have powers and skills beyond those one can gain through mere practice or determination, in my opinion. I think while it's been crafted very nicely into the narrative and has deviated enough from its origin into something more interesting and nebulous, ascendancy does have its most basic roots in the powering-up in experience you see in RPGs.

[Aptorian]

My 2 cents on the matter of ascendants and their positions.

I was going to agree that ascendants don't have to take a position or appear in the Deck just because the have ascended. But on second thought, considering that the Deck is a strange system that seems to have a grand scope. Why wouldn't every Ascendant have a position? Like mentioned above, they simply become unaligned, until they make an affiliation or they are forced to take a side.

The strange question would be how big is the Deck of Dragons really? Considering the size and scope of the Malazan world and it's history, you'd think that there would at any given time and place be hundreds of ascendants and gods active or hiding. If they are all known by the deck, do they then get a card each? For the unaligned slots? That would make the Decks HUGE. Unlike the decks we've traditionally seen people use, which only seem to take into account the big houses. Is it just that for normal fortune telling purposes it is not that relevant to own every ascendants card, or is there perhaps just one card in the deck that says "Unaligned" and then the reader has to guess what unaligned ascendant it is that is involved?

I kind of like the idea of every ascendant having a card. Pokemalazan, gotta catch 'em all!

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 21 May 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Oh. My. God. Haroos.

Read these two entries:

http://encyclopediam...ks.com/Coltaine

http://encyclopediam...ltaine-ascended

The Wickans are just human beings. They are not a separate race. They are a mortal human people.

Coltaine is the first and best example of human beings ascending (only Wickans don't ascend, they just reiterate), through sheer badassitude. Coltaine is transcending human limitations. His strength of will, his determination, his skill. His presence and the ordeal of the Chain of Dogs is pushing him into Ascendancy.

Unfortunately I can't find the Gesler Vs Coltaine passage on the wiki, so let me transcribe it:

Deadhouse Gates, p. 672:

Quote

Animated for the first time and still laughing, Coltaine spun to the corporal. "And what would Cartheron Crust have said to that, soldier?"
"He'd have punched me in the -"
Gesler got no further as Coltaine's fist lashed out and caught the corporal flush on the nose. The marine's head snapped back, his feet leaving the ground. He fell on his back with a heavy thud. Coltaine wheeled around, clutching his hand as if he'd just connected with a stone wall.
Sormo stepped forward and grasped the Fist's wrist to examine the hand. "Spirit's below, it's shattered!"
All eyes swung to the supine corporal, who now sat up, blood gushing from his nose.
Both Nil and Nether hissed, lurching back from the man. Duiker grasped Nether's shoulder and pulled her around.
"What is it, lass? What's wrong-"
Nil answered, his voice in a whisper. "That blood - That man has almost ascended!"
Gesler did not hear the comment. His gaze was on Coltaine. "I guess I'll take that promotion now, Fist," he said through split lips.
"-almost ascended. Yet the fist..." Both Warlocks now stared at Coltaine, and for the first time Duiker could clearly see the awe in their expressions.
Coltaine cracked open Gesler's face. Gesler, a man on the edge of Ascendancy... and into what? The historian thought back to Stormy and Truth manning the dory's sweeps... their extraordinary strength, and the tale of the burning warren. Abyss below, all three of them... And... Coltaine?

No, it is not outright stated that Coltaine is semi-ascendant, but it's right there between the lines for you to grasp.

EDIT: By the way, if someone has an account on the wiki, feel free to add the above passage to the "Has Coltaine ascended" entry. Maybe the Gesler one as well, just for good measure.

it's not that you're neccessarily wrong, just that you have no facts to support what you say.
it's all theory based on ... speculation.

a mage is more than human also, right ?
and we have seen all kinds of different wizardy, from the mott irregulars to tano spirit walkers.

my personal theory is that the entire wickan people were once an elder god , kind of like the bridgeburners are all together one ascendent.
coltaine is the heart of them or ... something.

This post has been edited by haroos: 22 May 2010 - 07:45 PM

[worry]

You are conflating hypothesis and theory. Apt et al have a theory, you have a hypothesis.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 22 May 2010 - 08:21 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

In reference to WJD point of Kel/Dancer choosing to become Gods of Shadow, i really don't have much in way of defense. Except maybe they didn't choose, necessarily. They seem to personify in Godhood/Ascendency (whichever one they really are, as it's been implied they do not in fact rule Shadow, just a fragment, and do not seem to personally possess worshippers) what they did in life, i.e., Dancer being an Assassin, and Kellenvad being a shrewd master manipulator, which seems to aspect to Shadow quite snugly. That being said, they did seem to have more of a choice than others anyhow, which could imply that most if not all have free will to a certain degree too what they could "become". Trake becoming God of War? Not much in backstory on him, but i'm assuming since he was a First Hero that would have pretty much auto-aspected him to War? (not sure about the angle of the whole seasonal thing these multiple Gods of War got going on...). QB seeming shocked about the Magus of Dark card being proclaimed as his to fill seems pretty out there as well, so not sure what that implies. Other examples i should be able to come up with, but my brain is only about half-speed today.


Basically, my point is i see that most of the folks we have seen pre-Ascendency to actual ascension seem to fill something that they did in mortal/regualr life as well. Bridgeburners ascending to ....well, Bridgeburners. Trake a FH, to GOW (i imagine a First Hero was the equivalent of something like a Dassem Ultor-type dude, or rather the Sword of Empire title?). Kellenvad as a deceptive snakeoil salesman type in real life becoming what equals the same in the pantheon. ETc., etc., etc......

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 22 May 2010 - 09:49 PM

[haroos]

worrywort, on 22 May 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

You are conflating hypothesis and theory. Apt et al have a theory, you have a hypothesis.

what ?

[worry]

The theory that Coltaine is moving towards ascension is supported by facts and evidence...the very quote Apt posted points strongly, almost definitively, to Coltaine heading in that direction. Your notion that the Wickans are for whatever reason a cumulative ascendant, or degraded one (?), is a hunch you have that hasn't been tested through evaluating the texts. It is therefore a hypothesis and not a theory. A mage isn't necessarily more than human (and there are certainly non-human mages too of course). If you're just saying ascension isn't the only way to hold great power, then I agree with that, but in the case of Coltaine it is more than hinted at. In fact, I think DG in general is SE tipping his hand to readers that ascension and godhood aren't so cut and dry, and the pantheon(s) are as unstable as they've ever been. Coltaine is one of our first lessons in this phenomenon. The revelations about Shadowthrone and Cotillion are another. As are Gesler, Stormy, the D'ivers, whatever. The point being, there are more ways to ascend than one would expect from common knowledge, and in some cases it's a process rather than an event.

[The Seguleh 46th]

worrywort, on 23 May 2010 - 06:46 AM, said:

In fact, I think DG in general is SE tipping his hand to readers that ascension and godhood aren't so cut and dry, and the pantheon(s) are as unstable as they've ever been. Coltaine is one of our first lessons in this phenomenon.

Very solid point there! Something i really need to think about when i get around to my reread of DG. I think i may have been looking at this Ascension/Godhood thing too literal-minded at times. The sheer complexity, and at the same time, simplicity of it seems to really throw me off sometimes. I mean, look at Ges and Stormy. They seem ignorant of the fact that they are/have Ascending/Ascended. So why them? What was so special about them going through the fires of Tellan? Why not Felisin Younger, Kulp, and Heboric? Also the notion of whether Rake and Whiskeyjack are Gods or Ascendents? They are both worshipped to a certain degree by a small population of folks in far off lands, IIRC. You opened my eyes a bit here Worrywort. Also, rereading really has helped immensely, as i'm almost done with GOTM, and its damn near 100 times more clear to me what in the hell is actually going on this second time around!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 23 May 2010 - 06:55 PM

[foolio]

haroos, on 23 May 2010 - 05:52 AM, said:

worrywort, on 22 May 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

You are conflating hypothesis and theory. Apt et al have a theory, you have a hypothesis.

what ?

I think what Worrywort is saying is you have "gotten all mavericky."

[worry]

That's harsh. I would never, ever, ever compare someone to Sarah Palin, regardless of our disagreements.

[foolio]

i would

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on 22 May 2010 - 06:49 AM, said:

My 2 cents on the matter of ascendants and their positions.

I was going to agree that ascendants don't have to take a position or appear in the Deck just because the have ascended. But on second thought, considering that the Deck is a strange system that seems to have a grand scope. Why wouldn't every Ascendant have a position? Like mentioned above, they simply become unaligned, until they make an affiliation or they are forced to take a side.

The strange question would be how big is the Deck of Dragons really? Considering the size and scope of the Malazan world and it's history, you'd think that there would at any given time and place be hundreds of ascendants and gods active or hiding. If they are all known by the deck, do they then get a card each? For the unaligned slots? That would make the Decks HUGE. Unlike the decks we've traditionally seen people use, which only seem to take into account the big houses. Is it just that for normal fortune telling purposes it is not that relevant to own every ascendants card, or is there perhaps just one card in the deck that says "Unaligned" and then the reader has to guess what unaligned ascendant it is that is involved?

I kind of like the idea of every ascendant having a card. Pokemalazan, gotta catch 'em all!

Now there is another another alternative to the massive pokemalazan deck of all ascendants. Maybe Decks magically have the cards they need when someone of sufficient skill is laying the cards for a reading. I still don't think that all ascendants are available for the deck but it would be neat if a "new/old" ascendant is active all of a sudden that the Deck could incorporate them without the need for them to be drawn and placed within the deck.

sincerely

[Aptorian]

We know they don't because, even the CG needed an artist to carve him a special deck. However some magic users have the deck in their heads.

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on 25 May 2010 - 05:41 AM, said:

We know they don't because, even the CG needed an artist to carve him a special deck. However some magic users have the deck in their heads.

T'amber mentions that one of the cards Fiddler throws during the Bonehunters game on the Froth Wolf wasnt drawn/painted by her...at least thats my memory of the scene. I dont think there is enough evidence but I dont think its impossible....merely imporbable.

Sincerely