[teholbeddict]

I'm with Apt on this one as well. I had almost exactly the same problems he did with the book. I mean I liked it, the book was fantastic, but for me it just wasn't on a level with some of the other books in the series. I really did find it unfocused and all over the place for the first bit. It just never really settled down into much of a story line. As Apt said Dresden is bouncing around from place to place event to ever and character to character. He goes to the White Council, sets up some inside help there, then that immediately falls through, there's a letter and that's the last we hear of Steed or Lucciano. He goes to see Marcone for one chapter and that's the last we see of him, we get a bit of Mac, a few glimpses of the other usual characters and that's it. Plus as apt says we've got the house burning down, car destroyed, back broken, becomes the winter knight, battle the devourer at Rudolph's house, hops over to see Odin, etc. etc. In the other books he would normally have had to stop and deal with the consequences of each of these events. The broken back would not just have been cleared up in a snap, he would have gone back to the apartment, tried to bring the beetle back from the grave. I know he was in a hurry to save his daughter and time was of the essence but he just kind of swept from event to event, never really going back to deal with the fall out. I think Apt is right, Butcher seems to have been unable to not include as many characters as possible. It's like they all have to be squeezed in there even if it's just for a few pages and that gives the book a really scattered feel.

The other issue I had is that even for a Dresden novel everything in here was just too damn convenient. It started with me with Lea and the gift from his mother. I mean for him to just ask for that out of the blue, and then get the perfect gift seems a bit much. Not to mention he immediately figures out how to use it, where as in the past it would have taken him some time and practice to get something like that down. We are told that it caused him mother to lose the ability to sleep and Lea feels it will destroy him, but there seem to be absolutely no adverse effects at all to him using it. His house is burning down, and he's badly injured but he somehow climbs a ladder with what appears to be a broken leg, and then breaks his back. That's okay though because Sonya is on hand to save the day all of a sudden. It's cool that be becomes the Knight of Winter, but the fact that it heals his broken back and gives him super powers all in one go is just a bit much. Yes, yes, I know that's why he did it. I am in full Agreement with Apt on the confrontation with the Red Court as well. We are told he's going to be facing multiple beings who are on the same level strength wise as Odin, plus Arianna and the Red King, and however many of their minions (which in fact ends up being thousands). This is supposed to be a near impossible task, yet their little group waltzes in with some guns, swords, and enchanted clothes and come out with only a few scratches to show for it, having gone through the vamps as if it were nothing. I know he's now got additional powers but I didn't get the impression the winter knight was supposed to have powers that allowed him to face down a situation like that.


That's kind of my complaints in a nut shell and I know it's pretty much exactly what Apt said, but I just had to add my two cents. I did really like this book though, and I'm only complaining because I don't think the writing is on a level with some of his other works. This book actually had the exact same feel that the last Codex Alera book did, too much crammed in, too scattered and far too convenient. There were some really cool things in this book though. I loved that he's now the Knight of Winter, the way he did away with the Red Court was awesome, finding out Ebeneezer is his grandfather was a real shocker for me, as was finding out that Dresden had a daughter. The throw down in the Erlking's court was fantastic, and what he did to Arianna was bad ass. I am with Apt though in thinking that there was enough action in here to break it into two books. It would have allowed a bit more time for the material to breathe so to speak. More time to properly flesh things out and develop the story line a bit more. Instead of jumping all over the place and rushing through things to fit it all in. The show down with the Red Court was much more focused, it would have been nice if the rest of the book had that kind of feel. Again despite all my bitching, it was a great book and of course the ending has me chomping at the bit to find out what happens next, I can't wait.

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 13 June 2010 - 08:34 PM

[Abyss]

teholbeddict, on 13 June 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I'm with Apt on this one as well....

see, right there is where i stopped taking your post seriously...

Quote

...In the other books he would normally have had to stop and deal with the consequences of each of these events. The broken back would not just have been cleared up in a snap, he would have gone back to the apartment, tried to bring the beetle back from the grave. I know he was in a hurry to save his daughter and time was of the essence but he just kind of swept from event to event, never really going back to deal with the fall out. ...

But that was kind of the point, wasn't it? Harry was 'under attack'. Anyone whose read abundant genre lit knows the best attacks are thw all encompassing widespread total ones that hit at every point of support or retreat. Were the vamps or whoever else was involved supposed to give Dresden and co time to respond?

As for 'time to deal with it', most of the books happen on a hyper-accelerated timeline, usually 2-3 days at the most, with an epilogue that closes off lingering plotlines that didn't end when they take out the Big Bad.

Quote

It's cool that be becomes the Knight of Winter, but the fact that it heals his broken back and gives him super powers all in one go is just a bit much. Yes, yes, I know that's why he did it...

But that's the point. As a cumulation of years of plot development, put in this situation, Harry had to call on one of the darker options available to him because he had no other options, no time, and no other way to deal. So it was outsiders, dark arts, Denarians or Winter Fae.

Quote

their little group waltzes in with some guns, swords, and enchanted clothes and come out with only a few scratches to show for it, having gone through the vamps as if it were nothing. ...

I suspect Susan would disagree with you.

All of this is subjective of course, and everyone's entitled to their opinion. (and Apt and all your smelly incorrect Dresden hater ilk are wrong, WRONG i say!!!).

[teholbeddict]

Well yes Susan would be the exception and she died by Dresden's hand, which was calculated. I'm talking about the rest of the group, some of whom had no magical abilites or other super powers, some of them with very little magical ability getting through all of that unharmed. That seemed a little less than believable to me.

I know the books take place over a matter of days, and are fast paced, that wasn't really a problem for me in this book or the others. I just found this one disjointed and scattered. I have no problem with a hyper-accelerated time line. It's more the fact that he tried to put that hyper-accelerated together with what seemed like nearly every major (and some minor) character to have appeared in the previous books. I just don't think that translated well or came together.

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

[Tsundoku]

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

Did it make you feel ... dirty?

[Abyss]

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

...some of them with very little magical ability getting through all of that unharmed. ..

Molly got shot and Martin (traitor!) ended up dead too. I'm just saying...

Ultimately it's the same accelerated timeline that you dislike that leads to the finale where there's nothing to do but assemble the best team you can, go balls out for glory and shoot things. None of Team Dresden was exactly a lightweight in any respect. i've posted this elsethread, but...

Molly - more or less a full mage by that time and very talented, even in battle where Dresden tends to thing she isn't;
Thomas - when Thomas wasn't 'really' feeding he was more or less as powewrful as his sister (who rules the White Court) who was, and as of the finale he was still feeding the evil way;
Lea - Mab says Lea is second only to Mab;
Mouse - told Lea he would bite her ass off. literaly. And he MEANT it. And she believed him.;
Sanya - Knight of God. Fights devils full time. nuff said.
Murphy - interim Knight of God. Master martial artist. Was being possessed by Joan of Arc or something.
Susan - half-vamp commando with years of combat experience. And Fae stealth armour and a Sword of God just for good measure;
Martin - up until the betrayal, was an even MORE experienced half-vamp commando.

...so not a lightweight in the bunch, even before the Gray Council showed up.

All i'm saying is, there are valid criticism of how the book played it, but 'the fight didn't seem realistic' just isn't one of them, even notwithstanding that we're talking about a finale of a fantasy book.

[Abyss]

Sombra, on 14 June 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

Did it make you feel ... dirty?

Stop making her relive it, i'm sure it was bad enough.

[teholbeddict]

Abyss, on 14 June 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

Sombra, on 14 June 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

Did it make you feel ... dirty?

Stop making her relive it, i'm sure it was bad enough.

Yes, traumatized me in fact. I took several showers afterwards but just couldn't get clean! lol

[KalamMekhar]

I just finished reading this as well recently and while it was good, it was probably one of my least favorite one, but that ebing said i still enjoyed it a lot.

One of the things that bugged me was the whole martin coming out party that he betrayed susan, betrayed the red king, and spent 50 something years as a priest just so if something like this happened he could have the chance to have an affect on the outcome. seems like it was a convenient storyline for him and just left a bad taste in my mouth after reading that part, portraying martin as some hero, when i never liked his character anyway.

Poor murphy tho, gonna get stood up by dresden because he got shot, right when they were about to get hot and bothered! not fiar!

[Tsundoku]

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 June 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

Sombra, on 14 June 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

Did it make you feel ... dirty?

Stop making her relive it, i'm sure it was bad enough.

Yes, traumatized me in fact. I took several showers afterwards but just couldn't get clean! lol

...

Pics or it didn't happen.

(Oh come ON, don't look so shocked. You knew I couldn't pass up that line! )

[Zanth13]

Now how Will Thomas react to the death?


Murder frenzy Revenge on everything/one in a bloody spray of awesome?

or will he just get all moody and twilight on us?

[teholbeddict]

Sombra, on 15 June 2010 - 03:44 AM, said:

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 June 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

Sombra, on 14 June 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

teholbeddict, on 14 June 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yes I know I agreed with Apt, I even shocked myself at that one.

Did it make you feel ... dirty?

Stop making her relive it, i'm sure it was bad enough.

Yes, traumatized me in fact. I took several showers afterwards but just couldn't get clean! lol

...

Pics or it didn't happen.

(Oh come ON, don't look so shocked. You knew I couldn't pass up that line! )

The sad thing is I'm not shocked at all! I'm not even mildly surprised! I'm well used to you boys by now. Yes I shower every days, multiple times a day in fact and no there will not be pictures! I'll give you some rep though for making me laugh.

MODGOD INTRUSIVE EDIT TO REMIND PEOPLE TO STAY MORE OR LESS SORT OF ON TOPIC PLEEZES.

[Traveller]

Aptorian, on 11 May 2010 - 07:22 PM, said:

.

It's just such an unbelievable scenario that he would face that much power and not a one is actually capable of acting out of their own accord to save their bacon or crush this insect.

Meh. MEH I say.

EDIT: Three times I say it, MEH!

I say bah to your meh.

I just finished this, and I thought it was awesome - one of the best I think.

The ending was busy... like the battle with the fae (is it the end of Summer Knight?) almost so busy that it was difficult to keep up with things, but that sort of thing is difficult to write...
that's why there's less detail than a one on one fight, or one with just a handful of people/creatures involved. Cos as I read it, after the initial shot at the Red King, it seemed like a lot went on while the big bads at the top seeemingly did nothing. That was the impression, but that's just because of all the descriptions of what everyone else was doing followed on from each other, while what they were actually doing was happening simultaneously and in a short space of time.

Regarding Apts comment above, and all the ones that say that the 'power up' from Mab wasn't very impressive, I'd say that it was damned impressive... Dresden wouldn't have got anywhere near without it; he took out Arianna in an awesome way, turning steam into ice spears, and wasn't the usual near-death wreck he usually is after a fight - he was hardly out of breath. All the time wearing armour, and using spirit shielding he wouldn't have otherwise had. The most powerful of the Red Court used will against him because, in the past, and probably for a long time, it always worked. Why go into all that physical business when you can crush someone just by thinking about it? They were all so used to people falling down in front of them, that when it didn't work, plus getting actually knocked back, they didn't react physically in time.

What stood out for me was Lea... can she do ANYTHING?? She came over as one of the most powerful; she seems to be able to do anything she likes, with no repercussions. Dresden says it's magic, but where is she getting it all from? If you can transform any material, and travel where you like you can do pretty much anything. Even the Fae must have limits?

I thought it all came together well, it was sad to see quite so many changes... the blue beetle and the destruction of his flat were bad, but when his duster fell apart?! And he put it in the lake..?! Noooo!

Awesome shot of the Drescrack... except now I've caught up, I have to wait for mores...

This post has been edited by Traveller: 20 June 2010 - 09:35 AM

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 20 June 2010 - 09:31 AM, said:

...What stood out for me was Lea... can she do ANYTHING?? She came over as one of the most powerful; she seems to be able to do anything she likes, with no repercussions. Dresden says it's magic, but where is she getting it all from? If you can transform any material, and travel where you like you can do pretty much anything. Even the Fae must have limits?

Actually she does, for example she can't kill a human directly. She couldn't have done what McCoy did to the mercs. And while she engaged pretty much all of the LotONs by herself, she did it by surprise and notice she wasn't wiping the floor with anyone. She couldn't teleport everyone to the site, they had to use the Ways and then do the Hound transformation thing, and when Dresden is impressed by the armour, Lea admits it will vanish by noon the next day. All of which is to say, hideously powerful, but not omnipotent. Still awesome tho'. You can tell Butcher REALLY enjoys writing her. (and i can't be the only one who almost cheered when Lea 'keened/howled in triumph' when Harry took out Arianna).

Quote

...but when his duster fell apart?! And he put it in the lake..?! Noooo!
...

That made me SO unhappy. All the moreso since Susan had given it to him.

- Abyss, wants SIDEJOBS now, dammit.

[flea]

Sorry for entering at this late date. I finished Changes last night -- I have been on a power-read through the entire series. I have Side Jobs which I will start today. Unless I begin a reread of RotCG since Stormwielder is arriving soon.

Thanks to Abyss for pointing me to Butcher. Great series. Butcher has done a great job developing Dresden, who becomes more interesting as the series progresses. His pacing in the books is amazing -- the action builds quickly and there is virtually no let-up.

I definitely have some sympathy for Apt's arguments. I think the weaknesses of the series come to the fore when one reads the series as quickly as I have. It might just be me, but I think there are limitations to a long series with a central consciousness. I never want to read "hell's bells" again, for example. Then there is the problem of similar structures in the books. As others have commented, we know there will be a finale in which Dresden faces impossible odds but will somehow prevail.

Some have complained about the deux ex machina feel of the Gray Council coming to the rescue, but I recall from early in the book there were reference to the the White Council launching a strike against the Red Court that would wipe it out. The Gray's appearance at the end would seem to be part of this plan, but I have not read any reference to it. Am I mistaken?

[Abyss]

flea, on 27 November 2010 - 07:03 PM, said:

...Some have complained about the deux ex machina feel of the Gray Council coming to the rescue, but I recall from early in the book there were reference to the the White Council launching a strike against the Red Court that would wipe it out. The Gray's appearance at the end would seem to be part of this plan, but I have not read any reference to it. Am I mistaken?

Ebenezer tells Harry a strike is in the works and he should wait for it, and Harry explains that he's going ahead cuz fuckit that's his daughter out there. So entirely possible that Ebenezer and the Grays co-opted the White Council plan and bring in the wrath.

Correct me if i'm wrong but aside from Ebenezer and Odin we don't identify anyone else on the GC?

As for the series, i'll deny it if you ever quote me as saying this [/irony] but there is such a thing as 'too much' Dresden. The series is pure awesome in intervals of 2-3 books, but i found more than that and i needed a break.

Still awesome tho'.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 14 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

I suspect Susan would disagree with you.


[/size]

I also would like to point out that Molly is going to have some serious emotional scarring too methinks.

Hell, everyone there will..barring Mcoy probably.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 29 November 2010 - 08:27 PM, said:

I also would like to point out that Molly is going to have some serious emotional scarring too methinks.

Hell, everyone there will..barring Mcoy probably.

Why emo scarring? sure she got shot, which sucks, and i wouldn't put it past Butcher to make her lose a leg or a kidney or something just to ratchet up the character development, but assuming she just loses a bullet sized piece, why go emo over that vs her reaction when she finds out Dresden is dead?

As for everyone else, well, they won a serious battle against superior supernatural forces. Again.
Why emo about it?

[MTS]

I think he was talking about Harry's death rather than her getting shot. Thomas will take it hard, Murphy will probably take it harder, Mouse will probably go on a rampage and Mister will remain haughtily indifferent when or if he finds out. The Merlin will be overjoyed, but Molly (and possibly Michael too) will be devastated.

[QuickTidal]

MTS, on 30 November 2010 - 01:48 AM, said:

I think he was talking about Harry's death rather than her getting shot. Thomas will take it hard, Murphy will probably take it harder, Mouse will probably go on a rampage and Mister will remain haughtily indifferent when or if he finds out. The Merlin will be overjoyed, but Molly (and possibly Michael too) will be devastated.

Yeah, I was. Sorry about that. I misquoted to make my point, my bad.

[Abyss]

In terms of reactions to Harry's death, and not having yet read SIDE JOBS, i'm curious how many people just don't believe it until they see the body. And maybe not even then. It would be neat to see the Merlin's reaction. And then the Merlin's reaction when Harry shows up not dead.