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Apt just finished CHANGES (and didn't like it nearly as much) Spoilers of the Outher Night

#1 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 06:40 PM

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

WARNING: I'm doing some serious bitching here, take it with a grain of salt.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Going through the "Abyss finished it" thread I get the impression that people really liked the book and all the "changes" have them riled up for the next book. Personally I was really frustrated with the whole book because it... Just. Didn't. Make. Any. Sense. There was so many things that seemed out of whack. I don't know if the book was rushed or what the hell is going on.

Lets start out with the premise of the book. Kid gets kidnapped, is to be used for dark ritual and they have to get her back. This is the set-up for a great revenge story. Send Dresden into South America and get her back. This would make sense. What doesn't make sense is Dresden spending the first 300 pages just bumping from one place and one character to another all willy nilly. Being all grim and full of rage and then laughing the next moment. Then when he finally finds out where the kid is. At a place of immense dark power, surrounded by ten thousand vampires and soldiers, held captive by the Red Court who's head honcho's include 13 monsters each of which are a match for MOTHERFUCKING ODINs strength, plus the big bad Red King himself who we must assume are stronger than the Lords of Outer Night. Under them must also be hundreds of wizards at least as dangerous as Dresden. When Dresden learns this he decides that collecting a rag tag bunch of people, none of which, besides the Leanansidhe, realistically stand a chance in this situation, and try to sneak in a steal the kid is the best course of action. That's the fucking plan. Sneak in, make a distraction and get the kid.

COME THE FUCK ON HERE.

It's the fucking Red King and his entire menagerie of horrors. An army of vampires. With an auxiliary army of mercenaries. Covents of magic users coming out the wazoo. And nobody objects to the idea of just fucking walking in to the place. Look, I get that they were desperate. And they would all do anything for Dresden and the life of his kid. But come on. This plan was never going to work in a million years. It's the equivalent of trying to sneak in and steal the President of the United States shoe with out getting in trouble. While he is addressing the Congress. With every branch of Americas forces surrounding capitol hill. The President is wearing the shoe. And it's tied with a god damn double knot. It's just not going to work dammit. Logically speaking there should be magical wards for a hundred miles around the place. The mercenaries should be using a ton of technology (well away from the magical people), hell they should even be employing satellite coverage to keep an eye on all activity in the Mexican hemisphere.

I don't have so much a problem with the idiocy of the plan as I have with Butcher putting Dresden and every fucking support character available in that situation. It's like he can't help himself. Every book must end with a colossal convergence Dresden vastly outgunned and out numbered and then by chance, trickery and the help of some power he manages scrape out from under his fingernails he gets through it all. I'm not saying this is bad. It makes for a great finale in the books, but this time it was just unbelievable.

Sure is lucky that all the Red King and the 13 did during the finale was to "suppress" the team. Good thing they didn't, you know, blow them to bits, knock them unconscious or just "will" them to death. Like Odin supposedly could. Yeah. Sure was convenient. In general it surprised me how "ineffective" the magic wielders turned out to be in this. When Odin showed up and blew a thousand tons of stone away it was impressive, so was McCoy killing people in droves, but the rest were underwhelming. You'd think that even Dresden would get stronger after the Winter upgrade, but all he seemed to gain was a couple of frost spells and more Stamina.

What more. In the end the whole thing revolved around killing Old McCoy. Look, I get that he's a power player and very scary. But seriously, getting the entire Red Court mobilized just for this? Really? I mean shit. It's the Red King and his 13 Ring Wraiths. They're Demi-god level magic wielders. Shouldn't they be able to do something like this by themselves? Like. Just wishing that the moon falls on his head or something like that? Wouldn't it have made a bit more sense if the ritual had been about, I don't know, summoning Vampire Chthulu or opening a gateway into Edinburgh for the Red Court army, maybe nuking England, something like this? All this work just to kill one wizard. Good thing there wasn't any capable snipers among the hundred mercenaries at the Maya place to just put a fucking bullet in McCoy's head.

That aside what really annoyed me was that he was trying to get so much done in just one book.

Destroying the office, the house, the car, breaking his back, making the deal with Mab, in between all this he has to go to England, to faerie, to the FBI, to Marcone, to the Erlking, to Odin, etc. It's like he's all over the place. There's no real focus in the book. It's like there is the beginning, find the kid, and the ending, rescue the kid, and then just a lot of mess in between.

Lets look at his "detective work" in this book. The kid is stolen and he has no leads. Instead of going to South America to do some leg work there. They go to the conveniently located vampire place in his office building (I really don't buy the "just waiting for the right moment explosives" excuse there), they find some numbers that point to some strange place in the middle of nowhere. They find a shipping number. And that's that. Then there's the looking into Rudolph business. Why are they doing this? What were they expecting? They do a shake down and he tells them what? That some vampire hired him to be an asshole? How is this going to help getting the daughter back? There is no incentive to hunt him at all. At most he could have given them a description of, I'm guessing, the Eebs, but what would it even help finding their hideout? Capturing or killing them would not get the daughter back. It is a dead end. It doesn't need to a part of the story. It is illogical that Dresden would waste time on it when he had other sources to try out.

I would have liked this book a whole lot more if he'd split the events into two book. Maybe bring the daughter to Chicago. Let Dresden and Maggie meet, THEN kidnap her. Then you could use the first book with Harry tearing Chicago apart trying to find her, having run ins with vampires and the FBI. The whole thing escalating as the vampires destroy his life blowing up his property and maybe kill some characters. Say, Butters, Couple werewolves, Michael (an excuse for the Knights to get involved) maybe even Mister (I didn't mean that). Have the book end with Maggie taken to South America and an impotent Harry lying in a stretcher with a broken back.

Next book have Harry deal with being a cripple, having everything he owns destroyed and his daughter kidnapped. Having to watch as his friends do the leg work, hunting the daughter into South America. Then he makes the deal with Mab. Then he goes Super Sayian and descends upon the vampires like a frozen shitstorm.

I just don't think that one book did all the CHANGE justice. Everything happened waaayyy too fast for the importance of the events to sink in and let the reader savor them. Having all those attempts at his life and the attention of the FBI should have been super stressing and important, instead it seemed like a minor hassle. Breaking his back should have been something profoundly life changing, a real OH SHIT moment. Like when his hand got fucked up. In stead it became an OH Sh... never mind Harry fixed it in 10 pages. Becoming the Winter Knight should have had 50 pages dedicated to it alone. The crazy mind blowing god sex/mutating into a power of winter event should have been HUGE. Instead it's just over and done with right quick and instead of actually getting a couple of tips and tricks from Mab or Lea, he just rushes in instead of actually examining his new power.

All my bitching aside, the book was still a great read. Dresden books never fail to entertain.

A cliffhanger ending is always annoying, but I wasn't so surprised when he got shot. It was sort of fitting with everything that had happened to him. I think Dresden gets saved by Mab. But maybe not before he actually dies. Leaving him in some undead state or something. The shot certainly was fatal. It either hit the heart or severed the aorta or something.

I think that Murphy is going to be hired by the FBI and begin to work with Tilly. After what happened at the FBI HQ there might even be made an investigation leading to the establishment of a "X-files" squad with Murphy as the specialist. Which will allow for Harry to get involved later.

I think that in the future, within the next couple of books, the white council is going to tear itself apart. With the Red Court threat gone, they are going to turn on themselves. Christos vs The Merlin. It's going to get bloody and destructive.

I really hope that Mister is okay.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 11 May 2010 - 07:10 PM

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#2 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:11 PM

Actually Apt you make some entirely valid points and your critique isn't completely baseless. It's fair to say that there are certain flaws in the book and far be it for me to deny that you're utterly wrong, incorrect and likely a communist and/or cylon.

heh.

Anyhoot, you do raise a couple of points worth discussing in between your whinging whining and miscellaneous fiddle faddle...

The actual plan was to challenge Arianna under the Code, kick her ass, take back the kid and then bail. Naturally, no one actually expected this plan to work, hence the back-up plan of kill vampires, grab the kid and run for the church sanctuary. Not a great plan, but there was more of a plan than 'let's go kick some ass!'. Great plan no - the characters even acknowledge this plan is flawed. But there it is.

The Lord of Night thing... well, Odin warns Harry about the mighty will the Lord of Night can bring down on him. Sure enough, this happens. So Harry, now with a power up, frees Murphy, and Murphy channels Joan of Arc or something and proceeds to kick Lord of Night ass. Or put another way.. how do you counter the will of twelve gods? With a sword of GOD. And a five-foot-nothing ex-cop black-belt with a pixie cut. And the Lords do try a few other things but Lea and then the Grey council take them on. The point was also made that the Red King was an addict and a bad King and much of the Red Court wanted to see him pulped.

Anyhoo, there are answers to pretty much everything you raise but that's not realy the point. You didn't love this book as much as other Drescrack well that's your communist right cylon and i won't try to stake you thru your unliving heart or convince you otherwise.
And in the end we can agree that it's still a fun addition to the series and also you have wrongsauce running in your thin veins commie.
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:22 PM

Well. Okay lets say then that none of the Top Vampires were actually strong magic users. They just had a strong presence. And the Swords of Holy Asskickery were messing with them. Then instead of wishing Dresden dead. They should have super speed rushed him and punched his spine into the Pacific Ocean instead of just thinking him dead.

It's just such an unbelievable scenario that he would face that much power and not a one is actually capable of acting out of their own accord to save their bacon or crush this insect.

Meh. MEH I say.

EDIT: Three times I say it, MEH!

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 11 May 2010 - 07:24 PM

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#4 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:30 PM

Do you wonder how long it's been since the Outer Lord have been challenged in their own domain? Also, let's bum rush the guy with a magical shield that will instantly stop all progress and stun us for long enough to get metal swords through our hearts.

By the way, what Dresden book has believable climactic scenes? Sue the T-Rex? Mystery on the Orient Hop-Scotch?
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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:49 PM

Point being the Lords were built up to be a threat, but they were never some kind of all encompassing master god boss beyond all hope of attacking.

View PostH.D., on 11 May 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

... what Dresden book has believable climactic scenes? Sue the T-Rex? Mystery on the Orient Hop-Scotch?



Sue the undead T-Rex may be the greatest random undead dinosaur in the history of undead dinosaurs and i defy anyone to suggest a convincing counter undead dinosaur argument. But the beauty of that finale in DEAD BEAT is that having accepted that he has to use necromancy to beat the necromancers, does Harry raise up an undead army? does he call upon hoardes of ghosts? No - he animates a frikkin T-REX and rides it into battle.

But that aside, i suspect your point is that the big finish is pretty much a Dresden staple. The reader KNOWS that whatever happens, there will be a massive big kaboom finish to the book. Surprising, not at all. Satisfying, generally yes. And there's often a secondary ending that actually wraps up the book. It's like critisizing SE for writing wise world weary soldiers... this is what the author does and it either works for you or it doesn't.

And also Aptorian is a cylon. The whiny blow-it-out-the-airlock kind, not in any way resembling Trisha Helfer.
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#6 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 08:39 PM

I'm pretty much with apt here. Not the first book it's happened for me though, there are quite a few things that don't hold up if you take a closer look, as well as simple inconsistencies between books.

Odin mentions that each individual Lord is a bit less powerful than him. Given this, straight up fighting them should never have even been plan C, particularly since Harry didn't know about all the backup that was coming. Harry being saved in unlikely ways is hardly anything new, but I would've preffered an ending that wasn't simply a big fight against the bad guys. Ok, big fights are nice, but what's the point in building up a bad guy, and making the point that a plan better than going in and beating them up is needed, and then ending up just going in and beating them up anyhow. I agree with apt that the 13 Lords didn't make sense.

Likewise, the McCoy thing felt really contrived. With all the firepower the bad guys had, it was such an unneccesary way of going after McCoy. It just made them seem like stupid James Bond villians, going to such a great length to achieve something they could have managed far more easily. Maybe if they were going after Mab, or trying to wipe out the whole council. But ebenezar? Ok, he's one of the most powerful wizards in the world. One of them. But how does that justify the combined force of the red court and thirteen demi-gods. Thirteen beings almost as powerful as the one who taught the original Merlin.

It felt like he'd decided "Right, we'll have the court kidnap Dresdens daughter". That would be fine. Interesting development. He also seems to have decided to add in the McCoy being his grandfather thing(not really necessary imo). I'm fine with that too though. My problem is that he also has the book end with a massive convergence. It feels like he's decided to just throw in more power regardless of whether or not the situation warrants it. The red court kidnapping his daugher is fine. McCoy being his grandfather is fine. Them kidnapping Maggie to get at Ebenezar is a nice way to bring about the revelation about McCoy. It is the huge convergence that is unwarranted, because all that power acting just to get McCoy makes no sense-it doesn't make sense for them to go about it like that.

It seems to be a general problem for me. He keeps trying to make things more and more epic, and I keep finding myself thinking "Actually, I really liked this when it was just about a detective trying to pay the rent". I can see why he's building events up, but he is doing it regardless of whether his justification for it makes sense, and in this case for me, it jarred.

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#7 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 11:05 PM

I thought the whole point of the ritual was that it wasn't the red king's idea? it was ariana's scheme to 1) get rid of dresden and mccoy who killed her husband and 2) cause enough instability to lead to the red king being deposed.

So it wasn't the red king and his 13 demi god servants come up with a ritual to get rid of mccoy, it was woman with a grudge tries to get rid of mccoy and gain power, using the red kind and his 13 chums as bystander/bodyguards.

Dresden would almost have certainly been taken out by any one of the 13 individually, but he could have certainly taken a chunk out of whoever did it, so one of them isn't going to go out on a limb to take dresden out when he knows his 12 buddies are likely perfectly happy to have him taken out so they can be more powerful.

I know apts suggestion of hundreds of vampire wizards as strong as dresden is tongue in cheek, but in reality the red court can't have much more than 40 people higher than dresdens level if that (dresden is 30-40th strongest wizard alive according to the books, if there are a couple of hundred red court vamps stronger than him wondering around the white council would be wiped out stat)

that said it was a stupid plan dresden came up with, they acknowledged it themselves in the books, personally I thought the book itself was very well done (though the middle section was a bit extraneous, especially the FBI), but then i tend to turn my brain and critical faculties off during dresden and just let myself be entertained.
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#8 User is offline   Zanth13 

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:48 AM

I loved the book, but i did think some of the random encounters seemed a little to forced ie The Hunter... though it was a cool way to get rid of the weirdy red vampire assassins...

very emotional book... i look forward to seeing how the series moves from this point...

It was cool to see the angel again,

did he possess Murphy??
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Posted 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM

Actually, given the power level McCoy diplays here and in the past, it's not entirely unthinkable that the Red Court came up with an indirect way to attack him.

As it happens, that indirect attack requires a fairly complicated ritual involving thousands of sacrifices and hundreds of powerful vamps, all of whom have their own entourages and hangers-on. It's not like we haven't seen the 'big kaboom requires big ritual' thing before, as far back as SUMMER KNIGHT among others.

And to compound things there were at least two power-plays going on behind the scenes in the Red Court.

Finally, the Red COurt had months if not years to set all this up. Harry and co had barely two days to respond.

The power level of the 13 is never firmly established. They do present a problem but it's not like Harry showed up with six boy scouts and a gerbil to challenge them. He brought a Knight of the Cross, all three Swords one of which was in a master martial artist cop's hands, a powerful apprentice wizard, a White Court vampire who's arguably second only to the white court leader, two half vampire commandos, the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae AND a big shaggy dog mountain demon who eats minivans, ALL of whom are experienced at fighting vampires. And even then, WITH the Grey Council/Kenku back-up, they were betrayed, Molly was wounded and Susan got dead.


There are some valid critiques upthread, but Butcher went to lengths to set up the main plot and pay-off so i don't agree with 'it was contrived'. Sure, you can pick holes in the story, in any story if you try hard enough, but that's overlooking that in CHANGES Butcher tied together a pile of subplots that have been running for years, gave a massive cast screen time, hit the reset button for his protagonist on most things the reader had come to take for granted and ended it all with a great big massive cast of thousands kicky 'splodey stabby finale.

Perfect book? Maybe not, but damn was it an enjoyable read.
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#10 User is offline   Chaeone 

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 07:43 PM

simply put, Abyss is Right. Agree with EVERYTHING he said, cos he is Right. now stop whinging. its fantasy, its not real, but its damn enjoyable.

(okay, some valid critiques made, but aside from that, refer to above statement)
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Posted 12 May 2010 - 07:54 PM

View PostAbyss, on 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:


<snipperton>

The power level of the 13 is never firmly established. They do present a problem but it's not like Harry showed up with six boy scouts and a gerbil to challenge them. He brought a Knight of the Cross, all three Swords one of which was in a master martial artist cop's hands, a powerful apprentice wizard, a White Court vampire who's arguably second only to the white court leader, two half vampire commandos, the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae AND a big shaggy dog mountain demon who eats minivans, ALL of whom are experienced at fighting vampires. And even then, WITH the Grey Council/Kenku back-up, they were betrayed, Molly was wounded and Susan got dead.

<snipperty>


Actually, Odin states that the Lords of Outer Night are mostly retired gods like him, that once had entire civilizations that worshipped them. In fact, he compared their power to his within their domain, and vice-versa.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:48 PM

View PostH.D., on 12 May 2010 - 07:54 PM, said:

Actually, Odin states that the Lords of Outer Night are mostly retired gods like him, that once had entire civilizations that worshipped them. In fact, he compared their power to his within their domain, and vice-versa.


No one is saying the 13 weren't powerful. But i disagree with the position that they should have squished Harry and co like bugs in the first ten seconds, because Harry and co aren't lightweights, the 13 distrust each other and (some or all) wanted to see their King taken out, and a whole lot more was going on at the time.

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#13 User is offline   Anomander 

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 10:09 PM

Regarding the Lords of Outer Night, I imagine a good portion of their power was derived from worshipers (them being "gods") so it stands to reason they were nowhere near their past levels.
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#14 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 10:34 PM

It's been pretty clearly established that Gods (at least the once we've met) do not at all base their power on worship. If that was the case Odin wouldn't have any power at all. Gods seem simply a description of individuals with power that exceeds what is possible for a mortal to contain. It might be that worship is one way to go to acquire god-hood though.

To some extent I agree with Apt's complaints, though in the end I enjoyed this book much more than Turncoat. Dresden's original plan was not that dumb. Had the Red King abided by the agreement he would've been able to take his daughter and go home. However, he knew very well that if it failed they would all be dead. Almost the entire upper echelon of the Red Court were present together with hundreds if not thousands of human soldiers and servants in addition to 13 beings with individual power almost equal to that of the Allfather himself. Dresden knew how outmatched he was and as such, bringing his friends (apart from Susan and perhaps Sanya) was possibly the most out of character decision he's made in the series so far. He cannot have been in any doubt that if he failed they would all die. No discussion.

Now, with the grey council and their allies I can see how they accomplished all that they did, but Dresden didn't know about that. All he knew was that bringing his friends would not influence whether he won the duel nor whether the Red King would uphold the agreement. As such they did not need to be there if he won and they would certainly all die if he lost.

Furthermore, I'd also agree with Apt that the power of the Winter Knight was very disappointing. Being physically stronger and having more control of ice is hardly the power we were lead to believe would follow such a position.

I don't know, in a way the show down at the end became a bit too much, even for a die-hard SE fan. When those bird soldiers entered the fray I was starting to get a little annoyed in all honesty.

...However, I don't think the purpose of the ritual, nor the crowd it pulled was unrealistic. The Red Court is led by a King who's addicted to blood. There certainly cannot have been only one noble who picked up on that. This was Ariana's scheme. If she pulled it of she'd be in a position to challenge the Red King for dominance and as such this must've been the most significant political event in the Red Court since the arrival of the Spanish if not since the very beginning. Of course every noble worth his salt would be there.
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Posted 12 May 2010 - 10:47 PM

Re: Worship and Power.

I think there is an indirect relationship here. Magical power seems to be a mix of willpower and knowledge. You need the will to power the magic and the knowledge of how to form it. While being worshiped adds to neither of those skills directly, it does provide safety and security. Safety and security provide the means to stay alive for a very long time (as Gods are wont to do). It is the time purchased that allows the person to strengthen their will and knowledge.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#16 User is offline   Animace 

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 01:31 AM

I may be wrong here, but I thought that the Lords of Outer Night couldnt take too much of a direct hand in the battle because of their involvement in the ritual, and if they screwed it up it would blow up in their face, and it was just their aura that was flattening people.

Also, I think the hereditary curse really fit the style of sadistic supernatural beings that held a grudge. Remember, these are powerful yes, but also pretty damn arrogant. It seems to me that they wanted to crush McCoy so indirectly because it was a slap in the face and a demonstration of their power. You could say their arrogance was their downfall. Plus, hes fairly badass. He didnt nuke them with a satellite from space.


In regards to the power of the winter knight, I thought the deal was that Harry was healed, and then once he had rescued his daughter he became the winter knight?





Really, all this is irrelevant - Mouse. Talked.

And he's a super badass mysterious demi-dog.

If the rest of the book had turned into "When Harry met Cutter" and harry whined about his shit life, that moment would have made it awesome.

(In my humble opinion)

This post has been edited by Animace: 13 May 2010 - 01:32 AM

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#17 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 09:44 AM

I would like to point out that Morgoth just agreed with several of my points and yet, when I look out the window, the sky still seems to remain in place.

No matter what arguments you make about arrogance, status of godhood or not, restrictions, etc. We're still talking about creatures very high up on the powerscale here. In fact, guys like the Red King and the LoON seem to be the top tier in the Dresden universe, right before you reach the ultimate levels of things like The White Christ, Mab, Great Chthulu, etc. It's just a big disconnect in the "suspense of disbelief" that none of these ancient creatures are capable of bringing power to bare that would rival that of Odin and McCoy. If McCoy can rip the life out of a mortal, then the big Vampire nasties should be equally scary.

To be honest I think I would have liked the ending better if the real twist in the end had been that the kid was not the target but Dresden and his friends were, that they were the ones meant to be sacrificed, to achieve some magical means. I just can't accept that they went to those lengths just to kill McCoy. Not unless there is yet another secret we have not been told about McCoy, like he is really Santa Clause or the Elder God of Toast or something like that.

But Animace is right. The fact that Mouse actually had speaking lines in this book made my day. "That Bitch!" and "... I'll tear your ass off. Literally tear it off." were some of the best lines of the book.
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#18 User is offline   vaiski 

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 12:09 PM

Synopsis for Ghost Story. Mild spoilers.
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#19 User is offline   acesn8s 

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 12:58 PM

View PostAbyss, on 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

. . . the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae . . .


I would argue that Lea is probably the 4th most powerful.

I know a lot of people were disappointed at the lack of power Harry shows for being the Winter Knight, but maybe some of that power was involved in how quickly he was able to shake off/recoup from the crushing will of the LotON?

Also, I kinda see the LotON as being unable to adapt to the fact that their will was being negated. They’ve had it so easy for centuries that once that tool was taken away from them, they got flustered.
“The others followed, and found themselves in a small, stuffy basement, which would have been damp, smelly, close, and dark, were it not, in fact, well-lit, which prevented it from being dark.”
― Steven Brust, The Phoenix Guards
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#20 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 02:54 PM

View Postvaiski, on 13 May 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

Synopsis for Ghost Story. Mild spoilers.


Awesomeness. So he is caught in between. Interesting. I'm going to make a thread on this.

View Postacesn8s, on 13 May 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

. . . the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae . . .


I would argue that Lea is probably the 4th most powerful.

I know a lot of people were disappointed at the lack of power Harry shows for being the Winter Knight, but maybe some of that power was involved in how quickly he was able to shake off/recoup from the crushing will of the LotON?

Also, I kinda see the LotON as being unable to adapt to the fact that their will was being negated. They've had it so easy for centuries that once that tool was taken away from them, they got flustered.


Everyone is assuming that all the LOONies (my new offical name for them) does all day, all year, is just hang around in some secret cave and other wise appear at super secret banquets and do some magical dark mojo. I don't think that makes sense. Much like Mab can't just rest on her laurels and hang back in Winter Central all the time, I'm sure that the Loons along with the Red King are active power players. They have to remain active to keep control of South America and handle super natural threats to their domain. They go on trips, they crush insurections, they handle super natural incursions on their territory, they generally try to keep on appearances lest their territory get attacked by one of the other Courts or some other magical nastiness.
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