[Abyss]

Morgoth, on 12 May 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

It's been pretty clearly established that Gods (at least the once we've met) do not at all base their power on worship. If that was the case Odin wouldn't have any power at all. Gods seem simply a description of individuals with power that exceeds what is possible for a mortal to contain. It might be that worship is one way to go to acquire god-hood though.

Agreed. It's an element of power, but not the only one. Gods changing their aspect or responsibilities to maintain some power and avoid fading into nothing isn't a new idea. Gaiman and SE have both used it.

Quote

...bringing his friends (apart from Susan and perhaps Sanya) was possibly the most out of character decision he's made in the series so far....

Harry spends like five pages angsting about this, and reasoning that these are his friends, it's their choice, and he had to learn to accept help even if the consequences are negative. Murphy specifically threatens to beat Harry senseless if he apologizes for her losing her job for helping him.

Quote

Furthermore, I'd also agree with Apt that the power of the Winter Knight was very disappointing. Being physically stronger and having more control of ice is hardly the power we were lead to believe would follow such a position.

I don't get this - we've seen three Knights before Harry and they were all basically tough dangerous mortals. Harry has the extra bonus of his magic, so arguably he's one up on them, but Summer/Winter Knight is not a god-like position. It's a mortal agent of a Fae Court. Early in the book he's bitching about his knees and post Knighthood he's outracing half-vampires, plus he gained a whole element of ice magic that let him beat Arianna in the duel.

Animace, on 13 May 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

...In regards to the power of the winter knight, I thought the deal was that Harry was healed, and then once he had rescued his daughter he became the winter knight?

Nope, it's pretty clear he took on the role when he knocked boots with Mab, but he took it conditional on finishing the quest to rescue his daughter.

Quote

Really, all this is irrelevant - Mouse. Talked.

And he's a super badass mysterious demi-dog.

If the rest of the book had turned into "When Harry met Cutter" and harry whined about his shit life, that moment would have made it awesome.

(In my humble opinion)

Aptorian, on 13 May 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

...But Animace is right. The fact that Mouse actually had speaking lines in this book made my day. "That Bitch!" and "... I'll tear your ass off. Literally tear it off." were some of the best lines of the book.

Ag.
Reed.

acesn8s, on 13 May 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

Abyss, on 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

. . . the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae . . .

I would argue that Lea is probably the 4th most powerful.
...

Three queens, then Mab. Sure, but Mab does say that Lea is second only to herself, iirc that's more or less a quote, even if that amounts to being the second or fourth biggest nuke in the arsenal.



- Abyss, (demon) dog person.

[Aptorian]

Abyss, on 13 May 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

acesn8s, on 13 May 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

Abyss, on 12 May 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

. . . the second most powerful member of the Winter Court fae . . .

I would argue that Lea is probably the 4th most powerful.
...

Three queens, then Mab. Sure, but Mab does say that Lea is second only to herself, iirc that's more or less a quote, even if that amounts to being the second or fourth biggest nuke in the arsenal.



- Abyss, (demon) dog person.

It's not unreasonable to think that there are other significant powers in the fae world than just the Summer and Winter factions. Mab is probably the strongest active Winter Court fae we know. But The Erlking is also there. A powerful fae outside the Summer Winter system. It's not unlikely that other fae, like Leanansidhe, could amass enough strength to become a big power player herself without having to rely on Summer or Winter.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 13 May 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

It's not unreasonable to think that there are other significant powers in the fae world than just the Summer and Winter factions. Mab is probably the strongest active Winter Court fae we know. But The Erlking is also there. A powerful fae outside the Summer Winter system. It's not unlikely that other fae, like Leanansidhe, could amass enough strength to become a big power player herself without having to rely on Summer or Winter.

Sure but the comment in question was that Mab was now the second most powerful member of the Winter Court. The Erlking has been said to be on par with Mab and no doubt there are other Summer and Wild fae around Lea's power level.

And of course there's Toot...

- Abyss, bets on the little guy...

[Use Of Weapons]

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Lea is greater in power than Maeve. I think of the Queens as on a bell curve of power, with Mab at the apex and Mother Winter at the right hand, fading end. Maeve would be equivalent in potential, but not in actuality (the Queen Who Is To Come). So it's fine to think there may be members of the court whose power would outmatch Maeve's temporarily. IMO, we have to take Mab's own word here -- she said outright that Lea was second only to her, and the sidhe can't lie. One could argue that Mother Winter is not part of the court, and get around it that way. But Maeve is certainly part of the Winter court, and as Mother Winter is pretty much out of the game, it's Mab > Lea > Maeve, for me.

[HoosierDaddy]

Butcher has stated that Mab and Titania are by far the most powerful, and the only Fae capable of taking them on head to head are the Mothers. He has also stated that in human history there have been several Winter Queens, but the Summer Mother (my fantasy brothers) is the only other Summer Queen that has been present besides Titania.

Also, the Erlking is so powerful because he accomplished Kremling's (is that the dude's name?) ritual.

[Aptorian]

H.D., on 13 May 2010 - 07:43 PM, said:

Also, the Erlking is so powerful because he accomplished Kremling's (is that the dude's name?) ritual.

Wait, what, really?

Is this stated somewhere I have forgotten?

I though he was just a legendary, very strong, former Elfking fairie. My understanding of his involvement in the Dark Hallow or what ever the ritual was called, was not that he was connected with the ritual itself, but rather he was a convenient sufficiently powerful source in the Chicago area that could be used to trigger the "event" if sacrificed.

The reason to why the fairytale book/song/rhyme what ever was sought after was because it was the only known formula to summoning him.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'll look for the exact quote by Butcher, Apt. I might be remembering it wrong, but it was fairly strongly implied, I think.

Quote

5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place.

For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 13 May 2010 - 08:45 PM

[Aptorian]

Oh he said that in an interview?

I just find it strange because the implication of the Dark Hallow (which I think the ritual was called) was that you would become something infinitely more scary than the Erlking if you gained its power.

[HoosierDaddy]

Lol. The Erlking is a bad-ass, Apt. Don't you think there is a reason he doesn't have to bend knee to Titania or Mab?

[Aptorian]

I think he doesn't bend a knee because he is not bound to the courts of Winter of Summer. Surely there is more to the fairy lands than just these two parts. And outside the fairy lands there is a whole lot more Nevernever.

[Abyss]

I had completely forgotten about that link between Kimmler's ritual and Erl... interesting...

[Morgoth]

Man, actually bringing forth a mythological figure like Odin into the books open the door for all other kinds of delights. Imagine Tiamat, or better yet, Night appearing at some point. Or Anarchy (if Butcher likes Milton).

@Abyss - The thing is, Dresden could easily have prevented whomever he wanted from following him through the gates. It just doesn't rhyme with him being Dresden, and for that matter being a good guy.


When it comes to the Sidhe, I would be very surprised if the entire upper echelon of power within the Nevernever belongs to either Summer or Winter. Titans, Giants, Trolls (the proper fairy tale kind, not the Hollywood monstrosities), Leviathans, Sphinxes, Dragons and so on. Not to mention the Outsiders. I wants more Lovecraft.

[Use Of Weapons]

Um -- that quote from Jim is not saying that the current Erlking carried out Kemmler's ritual. He's just saying that the current Erlking acquired the power of lots of other beings in order to get to his current level. Now, this may imply that he was at least amoral, if not evil, in the same way Kemmler was. But it in no way implies he used the Darkhallow ritual itself.

[HoosierDaddy]

You read that completely differently than me. Perhaps break it down how you read it otherwise. The words, "why do you think the Big E was summoned as part of that ritual?" Imply that the ritual and the Erlking are tied together somehow. Follow that with, "because that's how the Erlking got so boss in the first place," and I don't see how it could be read any other way. How is there no implication in "why do you think" and "because" cause and effect, than implication is the wrong work. It's blatant.

The next sentence is about other ways of absorbing souls/spirits to increase power through the table in Summer Knight. And, thus that the Darkhallow isn't the only means of going about it. It seems to be the easiest way, though.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 14 May 2010 - 06:57 PM

[Use Of Weapons]

See, I just didn't read it that way at all, though I can see where you're coming from. For me, the implication of 'why do you think the big E was summoned' is that, as an end product of a similar process, the Erlking contains the power of lots of entities already, and is thus a short-cut to consuming all of those entities individually. Bad guys are all about short-cuts to power, right?

It's possible that I'm adding real-world knowledge of the Erlking to the Dresden-verse, though. We have accounts of stories about the Erlking (in the form of Herne the Hunter) dating way back to the early middle ages and before. Herne was worshipped by the early Celts. Kemmler, in the Dresden-verse, was nowhere near as old. I guess it's possible that the Erlking in the Dresden-verse is not the same as the Erlking we have legends of in the real world.

This post has been edited by jitsukerr: 17 May 2010 - 11:56 AM

[Chance]

jitsukerr, on 17 May 2010 - 11:53 AM, said:

For me, the implication of 'why do you think the big E was summoned' is that

Wouldn't it be more likely that the Erlking simply was summoned because he was one of the "few" bigger powers that could easily be summoned (Through Peabodies (unintentional or otherwise) publishing of the ritual). Other easy explainations are that the Erlking unlike most similiar creatures (Mab etc.) comes with tag alongs in form of the wild hunt which in turn are powerful creatures.

The Erlking simply seem a easy mark compared to the alternative Elf Queens, Arch Angels or similiar.

Isn't it fairly strongly implied that gods and spirit creatures such as the Erlking came to be as Toot is coming along and then with blood sacrifice of belivers. Lea for example implies this as does the stone table and most around it or the sacrifice knives and such as items of power necessary for the rituals.

It sound most like the Darkhallows simply allow to take the soul/power out of people instead of tediously sacrificing them on altars or rituals one after another and of course usually the blood sacrifice does not seem to be avilable to humans normally (at least not as a permanent powerup).

/Chance...view on it all...

This post has been edited by Chance: 17 May 2010 - 02:43 PM

[acesn8s]

So Apt, do you think Harry "jumped the shark" in this book? Now that I've had time to digest what happend I'm curious if the next book is going reach even higher.

[Aptorian]

Hard to say before we've seen what comes next. It's not like I am now put off reading Dresden, far from it, I just found the scenario Butcher put his characters in unbelievable.

It sounds like Ghost Story will be a smaller, tighter story frame. But lets see, before the book ends Butcher may have thrown everything from the Ghostbusters and the Stay Puft Erlking to Ghost Worlds, Ghost Kings and Ghost on Ghost Sex in there.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 26 May 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

...It sounds like Ghost Story will be a smaller, tighter story frame....

Possible and maybe even likely. The last couple of books have been full on end-o-the-world cast of thousands throw down epics. It wouldn't surprise me if JB went a bit lower key next time.

- Abyss, would then expect him to cranks it to 13 on the next one but that's an aside.

[Durhang]

That is awesome if the Erlking is tied that closely to the Dark Hallow, but the impression the book gives is that his summoning of the Wild Hunt calls up the ingredients for the Dark Hallow, and little more than that. Thus finding those native artifacts to supply the spirits for summoning.