[seansword]

Something I was thinking about last night -

It seems to me that characters gain status as ascendants when many people worship or believe in them.
For example, the Elder Gods required blood sacrifices to keep them powerful.
Presumably, the gods from the Deck of Dragons usurped the places of the Elder Gods when new civilizations rose up and started to worship new deities.

Many characters in the Malazan Army seem to be gaining ascendant status as well - for example the Bridgeburners - who perhaps have "ascended" because so many soldiers in the malazan empire tell stories of the bridgeburners, respect and revere them.

I'm wondering if Kellanved and Dancer were working towards building an empire that would worship certain humans - and thus give those certain humans a place in the pantheon.

I don't know if this post make sense... sigh.

[Sixty]

I was always under the impression that ascendance is purely a matter of power, whereas godhood involves worship.

[Ozymandiac]

The BBs ascended because of Paran's blessing; I'm still not sure what Kimloc's role was, tbh.

And I seem to remember that, according Erikson, the difference between ascendancy and godhood was that a god was a worshipped ascendant.

[Aptorian]

seansword, on 20 March 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

Something I was thinking about last night -

It seems to me that characters gain status as ascendants when many people worship or believe in them.
For example, the Elder Gods required blood sacrifices to keep them powerful.
Presumably, the gods from the Deck of Dragons usurped the places of the Elder Gods when new civilizations rose up and started to worship new deities.

Many characters in the Malazan Army seem to be gaining ascendant status as well - for example the Bridgeburners - who perhaps have "ascended" because so many soldiers in the malazan empire tell stories of the bridgeburners, respect and revere them.

I'm wondering if Kellanved and Dancer were working towards building an empire that would worship certain humans - and thus give those certain humans a place in the pantheon.

I don't know if this post make sense... sigh.

You've got things mixed up.

First of all an ascendant can best be described as an individual that has transcended the boundaries of its race's limitations. Paran in BH, speaks of population density building tension, it creates individuals that "peak". People with extraordinary skill and will. People who experience great trauma. They have the potential to become more than just a mortal. Worship can make you ascend, but there are many other paths to ascendancy, the most common of which seems to be that you excel at what ever you're doing.

There are many sources to power. The Elder Gods did not necessarily "need" the blood sacrifices. But the sacrifices did make them strong(er). But there are other sources, magical well springs, personal power, prayer, etc.

The BBs are all ascending because of the Tano Spirit Song that Fiddler earned them when he saved the Top Tano Spiritwalkers daughter during the Apocalypse. When he used the shell thingy it gave the BBs a song, and that song combined with the blessing of Paran has made them ascend.

But it is true that the soldier worship has an effect, Dassem is an example of a soldier becoming a god, worshipped as Dassembrae, the Lord of Sorrow, etc.

Kel and Dancer were working towards ascending, that was always their goal (or an important step in their further plans), but the empire was merely a tool. The shadowmoon and azath was their method, as we see in NoK. Kel and Dancer would probably never had tried to make themselves gods of the empire, because that kind of thing is frowned upon in the pantheon. Power draws power, and none of the powers are interested in a God having control of an entire empire. They would converge upon that empire and bring it down.

[Edonidd]

"There are many paths to ascension."

Whiskeyjack ascends through worship as Iskar Jarak, by a tribe he once helped out.

The rest of the BB's ascended because of Kimlocs spiritwalking song. Although it was stated that Whiskey jack ascended again with them. Does this make him more powerful, how many others have ascended more than once and by more than one means?

Ganoes blessing them doesn't cause them to ascend, but it does grant them a spot in the Deck of Dragons, which is all he is in charge of. We haven't really seen this yet, I don't think, since so far they have just been the same as some other recent companies of dead soldiers. Although maybe a bit better at it. Hood did step down as being in charge of death though, and stated that he would leave the dead to their own gods to deal with. I think there has been speculation somewhere of High House Soldier or High House War, or something like that, and I wouldn't be surpirsed to see the Bridegburners as the one to take that over since they have already been sanctioned by the Master of the Deck.

Ganoes himself ascended by chance (ironically enough) and the master of the deck position was supposed to be going to Silverfox (before she was silverfox, still blanking on the name and too lazy to look it up). Now I think he is technically worshipped by all of the deck readers and whatnot out there, so is probably a god too. May have already ascended with the Hound of Shadow blood in him, it definitely made him stronger with what he did to Oponn.

Not Apsalorry ascended by being imprinted with a gods memories and for a while seeing all of his thoughts and actions.

ST and Cots ascended to godhood by taking over a warren. It is implied that they weren't ascendants before that, but going by stories of their deeds, they seem to have already been ascendants in the Apsalar mold, just not gods yet. Although I don't think we can confirm that either way, and ascension seems to be a tricky matter.

Another blank spot, but whatever land Traveller, Kyle, Ereko, and company visited was filled with people trying to ascend. their first step was life prolonging Denul Rituals. This was also practiced by Surly (who I personally think we are going to find has a role in HH Shadow) ST, Cots, Dassam, Whiskeyjack, and many of the others of the old guard (although apparently not Dujek, who coincidentally didn't ascend).

Dassam ascended and is worshipped as a god. Did he ascend due to worship or something else? Held a permanent/official role in HH Death, not one of the randomly assigned ones that are handed out by Fiddler or however random people get random position sometimes. Does this help their power level at all? Does it help them ascend? Don't know.

Rud Ellale was born ascended, by getting some draconean blood from mommy dearest.

Rake was definately an ascendant, and did several things that could have made him ascend, so we don't know which one caused it. Drinking Tiams blood. Worshipped as the Black Winged lord. Supreme Skill with the sword, and supreme willpower. Official role in HH Dark. "The" Arch mage. etc.

Gruntle seems to be more than many of the other Mortal Swords, does that mean he ascended or is his god just granting him extra power since he has less gather power than many of the established gods at the time.

Speaking of Treach, he was an ascendant already we think (since he survived so long) and was already worshipped. But didn't seem to truly ascend until he was killed...?

Baudin, Stormy, and Gessler all ascended or at least verged on it by passing through the fires of tellann. I think all of them somehow passed over that verge and fully ascended by now, although the dead guy in Ygratan didn't survive long enough or have a god pick him up and bring him the rest of the way.

We didn't learn how Coltaine ascended but he was also at least on the verge when he laid out Gesler. I think he made it the rest of the way even before getting reborn into an empty shell baby. This may have been worship too as he was almost definitely worshipped before his death, and certainly is now.

This is just a short list of some of the people we have seen ascend in the course of the books, or got an insight into their past ascensions during the books. Baruk would be proud of SE for showing how right that statement would prove over the course of the next 8 books. And we still don't know which path he followed.

This post has been edited by Edonidd: 25 March 2010 - 07:41 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

[quote name='Edonidd' date='25 March 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1269502372' post='743017']
"There are many paths to ascension."

Whiskeyjack ascends through worship as Iskar Jarak, by a tribe he once helped out.[/quote]

Not necessarily. He takes that name, yes. And is worshipped by them, but that would make hm more a God than an ascendant. I think he's....
[quote]

The rest of the BB's ascended because of Kimlocs spiritwalking song. Although it was stated that Whiskey jack ascended again with them. Does this make him more powerful, how many others have ascended more than once and by more than one means?[/quote]

Apart of the Ascended Bridgeburners. He is their Captain, and as part of the blessed members also now Guardian of the Gate of Death.

[quote]Ganoes blessing them doesn't cause them to ascend, but it does grant them a spot in the Deck of Dragons, which is all he is in charge of. We haven't really seen this yet, I don't think, since so far they have just been the same as some other recent companies of dead soldiers. Although maybe a bit better at it. Hood did step down as being in charge of death though, and stated that he would leave the dead to their own gods to deal with. I think there has been speculation somewhere of High House Soldier or High House War, or something like that, and I wouldn't be surpirsed to see the Bridegburners as the one to take that over since they have already been sanctioned by the Master of the Deck.[/quote]

I obviously disagree with this. The blessing mixed with the Tanno Song has caused them all to ascend. It's obvious by now through their words and actions this is the case.



Ganoes is at the least ascended. I don't think he is a god as of yet, though. The Errant became one, but that was also a much wilder and unruly system. I don't think the Deck "worships" him like the Errant was worshipped by the Tiles. The Errant was a force of mischance, while Paran has already been a force of Balance. A change in roles for the arbiter.

[quote]
Not Apsalorry ascended by being imprinted with a gods memories and for a while seeing all of his thoughts and actions.[/quote]
Apsalar is obviously ascended.[quote]

ST and Cots ascended to godhood by taking over a warren. It is implied that they weren't ascendants before that, but going by stories of their deeds, they seem to have already been ascendants in the Apsalar mold, just not gods yet. Although I don't think we can confirm that either way, and ascension seems to be a tricky matter.
[/quote]

They hung out in the Deadhouse for years and created and Empire over three continents. They were obviously powerful enough to become gods, and smart enough to map out the Azath. Dancer and Kellanved were ascended, imo.
[quote]

Another blank spot, but whatever land Traveller, Kyle, Ereko, and company visited was filled with people trying to ascend. their first step was life prolonging Denul Rituals. This was also practiced by Surly (who I personally think we are going to find has a role in HH Shadow) ST, Cots, Dassam, Whiskeyjack, and many of the others of the old guard (although apparently not Dujek, who coincidentally didn't ascend).[/quote]

The Deadhouse extended the lives of those who lived inside it, such as the Old Guard did. Also, the land you are talking about is Jacuruku and is not where Traveller, Kyle, or presumably Ereko are from. Traveller is from Quon Tali, Kyle is from Fist/Stratem, but maybe Ereko is from there. Maybe. There is no evidence is or is not from there.
[quote]

Dassam ascended and is worshipped as a god. Did he ascend due to worship or something else? Held a permanent/official role in HH Death, not one of the randomly assigned ones that are handed out by Fiddler or however random people get random position sometimes. Does this help their power level at all? Does it help them ascend? Don't know.[/quote]

Dassem was originally Knight of High House Death, but began his own worship within the Malazan Armies and eventually became known as Dessembrae under his own banner after Hood betrayed him.

Rud Ellale was born ascended, by getting some draconean blood from mommy dearest.
[quote]
Rake was definately an ascendant, and did several things that could have made him ascend, so we don't know which one caused it. Drinking Tiams blood. Worshipped as the Black Winged lord. Supreme Skill with the sword, and supreme willpower. Official role in HH Dark. "The" Arch mage. etc.
[/quote]

Yep.
[quote]
Gruntle seems to be more than many of the other Mortal Swords, does that mean he ascended or is his god just granting him extra power since he has less gather power than many of the established gods at the time.[/quote]

Odds are he is ascended due to the events of MoI. It's not specifically stated, but he has become powerful enough that he's going to draw other powers when he acts, thus he is by definition ascended.
[quote]

Speaking of Treach, he was an ascendant already we think (since he survived so long) and was already worshipped. But didn't seem to truly ascend until he was killed...?[/quote]

He had ascended long before, but had lost himself in his sole-taken form. His death resulted in his being raised to Godhood.
[quote]
Baudin, Stormy, and Gessler all ascended or at least verged on it by passing through the fires of tellann. I think all of them somehow passed over that verge and fully ascended by now, although the dead guy in Ygratan didn't survive long enough or have a god pick him up and bring him the rest of the way.
[/quote]

I'd agree.
[quote]
We didn't learn how Coltaine ascended but he was also at least on the verge when he laid out Gesler. I think he made it the rest of the way even before getting reborn into an empty shell baby. This may have been worship too as he was almost definitely worshipped before his death, and certainly is now.
[/quote]

Actions above and beyond the ability of the race you are can result in ascension. Coltaine's actions during the Chain of Dogs are easily equatable with any that would equal ascension.

This is just a short list of some of the people we have seen ascend in the course of the books, or got an insight into their past ascensions during the books. Baruk would be proud of SE for showinghow right that statement would prove over the course of the next 8 books. And we still don't know which path he followed.
[/quote]

[anothevilbadguy]

I think you are equating ascended too closely with being a god. You don't really ascend to godhood, you become a god by being worshipped or taking on a role that is worshipped, e.g. King of High House Shadow. Ascendants are pretty much very powerful beings who, at least in the more mortal races such as humans, have 'ascended' the constraints of their race, most noticeably ageing and getting killed easy. I believe it is a much more fluid thing than godhood. It isn't so much a title, but when you reach a certain level of personal power no one else will debate that you are an ascendant.

For example, I do not think you can say Whiskeyjack ascended due to his worship as Iskar Jarak. He ascended as a bridgeburner, the leader of the bridgeburners no less. However, if he is still worshipped then this is likely to give him additional power.
Rake was pretty much ascended just from being, as he was the first son of the creator of the universe, or at least the Andii's warren/world. He did however get more powerful by drinking Tiam's blood. And he may also have got more power from being worshipped, e.g. by the Bluerose, however, I thing there is some mention in ToH that has turned away from this, as he doesn't want to be worshipped.
On the point of Treach he was ascended, but he didn't become a god until he was killed.


On the point of the old guard trying to ascend, I believe it was just more of a matter of the Azath house and denul rituals being used just plain to stop them ageing as much as they could. I don't think most of them where actively trying to ascend. Dujek didn't ascend because he wasn't a bridgeburner. However, saying that he clearly is one of the soldiers fighting chaos in the ToH, i.e. a grizzled one-armed guy behind Whiskeyjack is mentioned. So, it is unclear if he is considered part of the ascended bridgeburners, is just one of the countless dead soldiers being used to help fight of chaos in ToH or if the difference between the two is immaterial as the bridgeburners are guarding "Hood's" warren so what's the difference.

[Edonidd]

I'm not trying to debate, was just showing some of the different ways we have seen people ascend so far. But I will debate some of those refutations anyways.

It was clearly stated at some point that Ishkar Jarak had ascended twice, once by worship. I'll play quote fu later, but it was obviously either in TTH or DoD.

I said where Traveler, Kyle, etc visited, not where they were from. Thanks for pointing out it was Jakaruku though, that was my first guess, but didn't want to write it and confuse people if I had been wrong since they visited a few out of the way places.

I remember a quote where it was said that Dassam as Dessembrae was rivaling his masters (Hood) power while he still served him. But I still don't know if he had ascended because of his swordsmanship, or maybe combining that with his worship by his armies, and/or his life extending rituals and stay in the dead house. And/or how he became lord of tragedy before Hood took his daughter, there is obviously much more to his story than we know.

It has been stated in a few places that Kel and dancer had to die to be able to ascend, or at least that dieing enabled them to do it. It stated specifically that they ascended that night. Although like I said, I think they were already ascendants in the traditional sense that they were powerful, and just ascended to godhood that night (without their own worshippers either, just those that worshipped shadow).

Treach was already an ascendant, i think we all agree on that. But he was also already worshipped, there was a treach cult around already, and the torcs were made before he became a god. It seems like everyone we see become an actual god had to die in order for that to happen. (although Kel and dancer didn't appear to be dead, they were stated as such). Hood gave up his role as King of the Jaghuts/king of OP or whatever he was (his body sitting on the throne) to become a god. Like AEBG pointed out, Rake stated that he turned away from his worshippers, possibly meaning he wanted to keep living and not give up his role as a (quasi) mortal to become a god?

I also don't think the old guard was specefically trying to ascend, it just was helped along by those rituals. Dujek was a young boy with the old guard, I think that was stated somewhere. By the end he was older than all the rest we have seen. Surly tears people apart with her bare hands and feet. Ascended. Urko punches Karsa harder than he has ever been hit (shortly after calm lays him out too). Ascended. Tays, enough said. Ascended. Whiskeyjack, like I said I'll play quote fu later, but... Ascnded. Kelanved and dancer. Ascended. Dassam. Ascended. the only one we don't know about besides Dujek is Cartheron, it seems like all the rest of them have ascended, including possibly a few others from RotC, who were again all younger than Dujek. I don't think the rituals themselves cause you to ascend, just like guns themselves don't kill people. But both certainly seem to make things a lot easier for those people who may be capable and inclined of doing such.

As far as Paran's blessing. He may or may not be a god, but he clearly doesn't have the power to just go out handing people power-ups like a comic book or something. If he blesses somebody that will not make them ascend, nothing about his role as master of the deck suggest that, IMO. However he IS the Master of the Deck, and is in charge of that. He can sanction people joining the Deck of Dragons. He can accept new people into the deck, and probably in ways we don't yet understand that forces them into the deck. I see it as this; if he were to walk doen the street and see an old lady selling rugs, and choose to bless her, she isn't all of the sudden going to become some ascended killing machine and super powerful or hard to kill or anything. she will not ascend. BUT she will become part of the deck of dragons, maybe as the new weaver of HH Life, or the Spinner of HH Death, or something, maybe just an unaligned of some sort. I don't really know how that part works, but it just doesn't make sense for him inhis role to be able to cause people to ascend. JMO

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Edonidd, on 25 March 2010 - 08:57 AM, said:

I'm not trying to debate, was just showing some of the different ways we have seen people ascend so far. But I will debate some of those refutations anyways.

It was clearly stated at some point that Ishkar Jarak had ascended twice, once by worship. I'll play quote fu later, but it was obviously either in TTH or DoD.

Yup, you're right. It's in the EG Council in DoD. When Olar Ethil is practically saying to The ErranT "you know nothing and you are useless" she mentions that a soldier keeps Hood Death's Gate safe and has ascended twice: frst by worship of a forest tribe and then, with his entire company, thanks to a Tanno song.

[seansword]

Great discussion to go along with my morning coffee.

What I'm finding interesting is how many humans have recently ascended - ST and Cots, Dassem, Coltaine, Paran, BB's, Whiskey etc...

In DoD I think there is a big "old vs. young" theme - where the Elder gods are spiteful of the younger versions of themselves. Also, there seems to be alot of animosity towards the Human race in general (for example Tool.) At one point Olar Ethil tells Torrent "I'm trying to save you all" or something like that (not necessarily a direct quote).

So I'm thinking that maybe the real story in MBTF is that the Human race in general has become too powerful, to vast, there is too much "population density" - they are polluting the world, killing all the Bhederin etc... and that the other, older races are vying to steal that power back - perhaps even to annhialate the human race?

I also like to think that Kel and Dancer maybe saw this coming, and though it seems a bit too altruistic for them, have taken it upon themselves to strengthen the human race for what is to come - seize a warren (where humans have never before controlled a warren), shape an empire that would set up many humans to ascend and therefore gain strength for the battles to come.

I'm ferclempt. Talk amongst yourselves.

-Seansword

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

[knight of shadows]

I can see where you're coming from with everyone basically want to beat the crap out of the human race. However I feel that it isn't just about power at this point it is also about survival for some of the older races. Every time humans move into an area the other races that inhabit it are subjugated or absorbed into the culture where they slowly lose their identity. There is a clear pattern of this: the trell, tarthenal, Tobalki, and they tried to do this to the Tiste Edur. If we come into contact with a race that has nothing to offer us and we think we can take advantage of we do it without hesitation. So in my opinion sure it has to do with power but another large part of it is just ensuring that their races survive.

[Edonidd]

I promised some quote fu love, so here it is.

DoD UK tradeback pg 531

'Hood summons the dead,' Olar Ethil said, as if Mael's words launched her down a track only she could see. 'The fourteen undead Jaghut - they did not belong to him. He has no control over them. They were summoned by an ascendant who had been mortal only a few years ago.' She faced Mael. 'I have seen the dead. They march, not as some mindless mob, but as would an army. It is as if the world on the lifeless side of Hood's Gates has changed.

Mael nodded. 'Prompting the question, what is Hood up to? He was onc a Jaghut. Since when do Jaghut delegate? Olar Ethil, who was this recent ascendant?'

'Twice brought into the world of worship. Once, by a tribal people, and named Iskar Jarak. Abringer of wisdom, a saviour. And the other time, as the commander of a company of soldiers - promised to ascension by a song woven by a Tanno Spiritwalker. Yes, the entire company ascended upon death.'

'Soldiers?' Errastas was frowning. 'Ascended?' Confused. Frightened by the notion.

'And what name did he possess among these ascended soldiers?' Mael asked.

'Whiskeyjack. He was a Malazan.'

[Sinisdar Toste]

i love that fucking quote. just hearing the elder gods talk about whiskeyjack and the BB and shitting thenmselves is so sweet

[HoosierDaddy]

I dislike this reasoning for Whiskeyjack:

"Twice brought into the world of worship."

If someone being in the Deck of Dragons amounts to worship, then that sets so many precedents for worship amongst randoms it breaks the system. I'm going to view that as relative communication amongst the Deck to its reader.

I'm obviously giving Iskar Jarak his due here as a completely random person worshiped to the point of ascension.

[worry]

I wonder what kind of role the dead will have in TCG...we saw the BBs in Raraku, and then a whole host of dead warriors inside Dragnipur...but it sounds like that army is still up and marching. I'm not expecting Peter Jackson's version of the Army of the Dead, since undead here are entirely substantial, but someone (Tavore? QB?) might have allies for the finale that nobody else expects.

[Silencer]

Actually, iirc, that mass of dead folk got wtfpwned inside Dragnipur. For sure, I don't think all of them got wiped out, but given that the Bridgeburner's and Grey Swords and such were at the front of the assault, I don't think the army of the dead is quite what it was. Probably made the Hood's Realm a lot easier to manage for WJ and co, too, come to think of it...

[anothevilbadguy]

H.D., on 27 March 2010 - 08:21 AM, said:

I dislike this reasoning for Whiskeyjack:

"Twice brought into the world of worship."

If someone being in the Deck of Dragons amounts to worship, then that sets so many precedents for worship amongst randoms it breaks the system. I'm going to view that as relative communication amongst the Deck to its reader.

I'm obviously giving Iskar Jarak his due here as a completely random person worshiped to the point of ascension.

I think it is suggesting that he was worshipped by the bridgeburners themselves. Bit like how Coltaine is worshipped.

[Sinisdar Toste]

arguably the entire host "worshipped" whiskeyjack. he was like dassem in that respect

[worry]

Silencer, on 27 March 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:

Actually, iirc, that mass of dead folk got wtfpwned inside Dragnipur. For sure, I don't think all of them got wiped out, but given that the Bridgeburner's and Grey Swords and such were at the front of the assault, I don't think the army of the dead is quite what it was. Probably made the Hood's Realm a lot easier to manage for WJ and co, too, come to think of it...

Yah true. Actually I'm not sure on the timing of that quote above (is p. 531 UK before or after Draconus returns?), so Olar Ethil could be talking about the dead marching BEFORE they enter Dragnipur. But I do think that Whiskeyjack is competent in a way that Hood never was--and knew he wasn't--as the major deity of Death. Perhaps the 14 Jaghut were all that WJ could spare before the Dragnipur battle (they were doing him a favor after all, not being of Hood's realm), but he's surely still got something left to offer? I don't know how strong his loyalties to the living are after death, but if he has any then they surely lie with Fiddler. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking that every awesome player shows up in the final convergence, but he's at least present in DoD so there's something to go on.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

H.D., on 27 March 2010 - 08:21 AM, said:

I dislike this reasoning for Whiskeyjack:

"Twice brought into the world of worship."

If someone being in the Deck of Dragons amounts to worship, then that sets so many precedents for worship amongst randoms it breaks the system. I'm going to view that as relative communication amongst the Deck to its reader.

I'm obviously giving Iskar Jarak his due here as a completely random person worshiped to the point of ascension.

I'm confuuuuused how that quote makes the Deck of Dragons worship. Both examples given are unrelated to it?