[Sullen]

Just like the KCCM are the first born of dragons? Which we know to be untrue.

[anothevilbadguy]

Aptorian, on 28 May 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

It is mentioned somewhere, somewhen that humans are the children of Imass.

It is also mentioned somewhere that this is not literal, but rather in spirit (i.e. I think in using up resources/ being destructive, or maybe similar society). It is mentioned in DoD, by OE I think. I believe that both are related to the Eres, so come from common stock but are divergent.

[Sullen]

A possible theory of mine, could humans have come from another realm, as the Tiste have done previously? We all know that the Imperial warren was formerly Kallor's empire, Kallor is human..... Could the humans on Wu be refugees from his realm fleeing it's total destruction?

[worry]

The IW was created by K'rul as a result of terrestrial happenings. It's not where Kallor et all come from.

[anothevilbadguy]

Sullen, on 28 May 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

A possible theory of mine, could humans have come from another realm, as the Tiste have done previously? We all know that the Imperial warren was formerly Kallor's empire, Kallor is human..... Could the humans on Wu be refugees from his realm fleeing it's total destruction?

The imperial warren was created by K'rul (and Drac and S of CN ?) so as to draw in the destruction that Kallor caused to Jacaraku (or Korel or Stratem, whichever), so as to allow the world to recover. It isn't really a separate prior world, like say Kurald Galain.

Saying that the Humans from another realm thing is certainly a thought I have pondered, but they aren't from the Imperial warren.

[Sullen]

Ah.... I didn't pick up on that, must've been one of the late night, eye bleeding reading sessions

[Zach]

I've read all the books, but managed to miss this "Jhorligg" race sprouting from the KCCM that somehow bred with Andii. Could someone explain this?

[HoosierDaddy]

It's from one of the B&K novellas. Lee of Laughter's End I believe.

[Zach]

Ah, i'll have to order those, since my library doesn't carry them. They don't seem to be nearly as canonical as MBoTF or anything of ICE's stuff though. Kinda odd they get so little exposure on this site.

[HoosierDaddy]

They are completely canon. They are just written for different purposes, mainly to be funny or make a very specific point. Site exposure probably has to do with the fact that they are much less read, much, much shorter (100 pages a book) and thus much less discussed.

[ansible]

anothevilbadguy, on 28 May 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 28 May 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

It is mentioned somewhere, somewhen that humans are the children of Imass.

It is also mentioned somewhere that this is not literal, but rather in spirit (i.e. I think in using up resources/ being destructive, or maybe similar society). It is mentioned in DoD, by OE I think. I believe that both are related to the Eres, so come from common stock but are divergent.

Here are some quotes from GotM that support the Imass -> human relationship. I don't know if these are GotMisms and contradicted in later books, but here they are anyway. Tool twice refers to humans as the "children" of the Imass.

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 312 said:

Tool nodded. "Life is fire," he said. "With such words was born the First Empire. The Empire of Imass, the Empire of Humanity." The warrior turned to the Adjunct. "You've done well, my child."

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 325 said:

"Convergence," Tool said. "Power ever draws other power. It is not a complicated thought, yet it escaped us, the Imass." The ancient warrior swung his head to the Adjunct. "As it escapes their children. The Jaghut well understood the danger. Thus they avoided one another, abandoned each other to solitude, and left a civilization to crumble into dust. The Forkrul Assail understood as well, though they chose another path. What is odd, Adjunct, is that of these three founding peoples, it is the Imass whose legacy of ignorance survived the ages."

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 427 said:

Curious, Lorn investiaged further, scrambling down into the cavity. Stone flakes carpeted the pit's base. She crouched and picked up a piece of flint. It was the tip of a spear point, expertly shaped.

The echo of this technology was found in Tool's chalcedony sword. She needed no further proof of the Imass's assertions. Humans had indeed come from the me, had indeed inherited a world.

[D'rek]

ansible, on 23 July 2010 - 05:12 PM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 28 May 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 28 May 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

It is mentioned somewhere, somewhen that humans are the children of Imass.

It is also mentioned somewhere that this is not literal, but rather in spirit (i.e. I think in using up resources/ being destructive, or maybe similar society). It is mentioned in DoD, by OE I think. I believe that both are related to the Eres, so come from common stock but are divergent.

Here are some quotes from GotM that support the Imass -> human relationship. I don't know if these are GotMisms and contradicted in later books, but here they are anyway. Tool twice refers to humans as the "children" of the Imass.

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 312 said:

Tool nodded. "Life is fire," he said. "With such words was born the First Empire. The Empire of Imass, the Empire of Humanity." The warrior turned to the Adjunct. "You've done well, my child."

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 325 said:

"Convergence," Tool said. "Power ever draws other power. It is not a complicated thought, yet it escaped us, the Imass." The ancient warrior swung his head to the Adjunct. "As it escapes their children. The Jaghut well understood the danger. Thus they avoided one another, abandoned each other to solitude, and left a civilization to crumble into dust. The Forkrul Assail understood as well, though they chose another path. What is odd, Adjunct, is that of these three founding peoples, it is the Imass whose legacy of ignorance survived the ages."

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p. 427 said:

Curious, Lorn investiaged further, scrambling down into the cavity. Stone flakes carpeted the pit's base. She crouched and picked up a piece of flint. It was the tip of a spear point, expertly shaped.

The echo of this technology was found in Tool's chalcedony sword. She needed no further proof of the Imass's assertions. Humans had indeed come from the me, had indeed inherited a world.

Like most of the Imass -> Human bits, these can all be taken as meaning the humans succeeded the Imass thematically, in terms of being the next highly populous race to dominate the planet and build empires and such, rather than biologically. 'tis a giant bed of confusion, indeed.

Oh and version 2-1 is up. There's only minor adjustments to the data since 2-0, but it has a nice background now.

[Tsundoku]

I always thought the KCCM (long tails) created the KCNR (short tails), not the other way round. Couldn't tell you where I got that from though.

[HoosierDaddy]

The KCNR are the forebearers of the KCCM, who were resurrected by the KCCM and wouldn't bequeath their magic to the Matrons and thus: WAR!

[Tsundoku]

Hmmm ... I know about the MoI thing, but I swear I've seen it elsewhere that not only were the KCNR an offshoot of the KCCM, but the KCNR were more techno-savvy, suggesting (to me) a more youthful outlook. Having the KCNR come first just ... doesn't work.

On the demon thing, I thought that 'demon' was just a convenient catchall for alien species from other worlds/dimensions/warrens/etc that were more wildly physiologically divergent from the various humanoid races (supposedly) native to 'the Malazan world'. I'm probably wrong, but there is some clue in the passages about those Kenyllrah dudes in MT and RG. Someone else can chase down the relevant quotes I'm sure.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 24 July 2010 - 03:57 AM

[MTS]

Sombra, on 24 July 2010 - 03:55 AM, said:

Hmmm ... I know about the MoI thing, but I swear I've seen it elsewhere that not only were the KCNR an offshoot of the KCCM, but the KCNR were more techno-savvy, suggesting (to me) a more youthful outlook. Having the KCNR come first just ... doesn't work.

Techno-savvy =/= more youthful. Contrast the Byzantine Empire of the 5th-6th centuries to the Romans in their heyday. Hell, IIRC no one rivaled Rome in the technological stakes until probably the 15th century, so being technologically superior to another does not necessarily presuppose relative youth.

[Tsundoku]

MTS, on 24 July 2010 - 04:13 AM, said:

Sombra, on 24 July 2010 - 03:55 AM, said:

Hmmm ... I know about the MoI thing, but I swear I've seen it elsewhere that not only were the KCNR an offshoot of the KCCM, but the KCNR were more techno-savvy, suggesting (to me) a more youthful outlook. Having the KCNR come first just ... doesn't work.

Techno-savvy =/= more youthful. Contrast the Byzantine Empire of the 5th-6th centuries to the Romans in their heyday. Hell, IIRC no one rivaled Rome in the technological stakes until probably the 15th century, so being technologically superior to another does not necessarily presuppose relative youth.

Yeah, but as we know the exception proves the rule.

It's still just a very strong impression that I cannot seem to shake, that the KCCM came first. However, when all is said and done it's the Matrons that came first in that part of the tree, regardless of which sub-species they genetically/nanotechnologically spliced first.

[worry]

I suppose you could think of the difference being KCCM's use of magic. They're not exactly luddites, they just have a different source of power.

[D'rek]

MTS, on 24 July 2010 - 04:13 AM, said:

Sombra, on 24 July 2010 - 03:55 AM, said:

Hmmm ... I know about the MoI thing, but I swear I've seen it elsewhere that not only were the KCNR an offshoot of the KCCM, but the KCNR were more techno-savvy, suggesting (to me) a more youthful outlook. Having the KCNR come first just ... doesn't work.

Techno-savvy =/= more youthful. Contrast the Byzantine Empire of the 5th-6th centuries to the Romans in their heyday. Hell, IIRC no one rivaled Rome in the technological stakes until probably the 15th century, so being technologically superior to another does not necessarily presuppose relative youth.

No need to resort to real-world comparisons, it's not like any of the newer "youthful" races have matched the technology of either of the K'Chain races. Anyways, given the information in MoI, the Nah'ruk were first, then the Che'malle and the Nah'ruk died out completely. They were then re-created by the Matrons, so all living Nah'ruk are from the re-creation, but nevertheless biologically the Nah'ruk (the originals) lead to the Che'malle, and not the other way around!

[Brujah]

Damn, you guys have been at this for a while, eh?

Interesting reading through all these old threads.

Damn, D'rek was on fire back in the day with all types of creative graphs, charts, models, etc.