[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Sandalath says that the Andii civil war went on for generations:

Quote

"There were factions – a power struggle." She looked away, up the Road. "It went on for generations – yes, that may be hard to believe. Generations among the Tiste Andii.

Of course we know the Soletaken among them are essentially immortal. Andarist is one of MD's first children and Endest is a mage so their extreme longevity probably does not apply to the rank and file Andii. The Mhybe mentions that their lifespans extend to millennia but I'm not aware of any quote or reference which narrows it down any further. Myself, I always thought they would have a normal lifespan of tens of thousands of years, with perhaps a hundred thousand being exceptional.

So, I think the Andii civil war was at least a hundred thousand years long, probably much longer.

[Juvenis]

I have absolutely no proof at all, but for some reason I was under the impression that the normal Tiste Andii lived for about 2,000 years. Mages were like double that and soletaken just "f you" to age.

...I like it that way, so I'm gonna keep thinking that. Even if someone proves me wrong Its an incredibly long time still, but not tens of thousands of years for the normal Tiste Andii.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Alright, interesting. 2000 would be the absolute minimum, since the term 'millennia' is used. Endest is more than 300 000 years old if you accept that the Imass had not yet initiated the Tellann ritual at the time of the Tiste invasions, which I assume based on Scabandari's comments in the MT prologue and the date in the MoI prologue as Pran Chole & company were on their way to the ritual. Anoamnder's group were in the first wave and Endest was among them, having actually witnessed the birth of Light in KG. I suppose this is why I believe the average Andii lifespan is in the tens of thousands of years - to explain Endest's age since he's not Soletaken (as far as we know anyway).

Maybe a few thousand is more reasonable and Endest is a very special case for some reason.

[beru]

maybe the power of the mage is a factor.. Endest is after all a High Mage.

[Juvenis]

Yeah, well it seemed that most Andii were also mages so if I had to choose an "average" (discluding Rake & co. since he'd bumb the average up considerably) I'd put it around 4,000 years. I kinda assumed Endest was a special case...but I'm not sure why. He's incredibly modest but his power was probably second or third to Rake.

Keep in mind, I have no quotes or anything. These are just the numbers that stuck in my mind, and I like them.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

beru, on 11 January 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

maybe the power of the mage is a factor.. Endest is after all a High Mage.

there's no maybe about it but, from 2-4 thousand to 300 000+? Seems a bit much to me. And all Andii can access KG but they're not all mages. My impression is they can use it to travel or participate in an 'unveiling' but they can't conjure wards or cast spells.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

From what I remember, Spinnock is 10-20,000 years old. And he is neither Soletaken or mage.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 January 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

From what I remember, Spinnock is 10-20,000 years old. And he is neither Soletaken or mage.

What is it that you remember? any clue as to how I might find a reference which supports your assertion?

edit: found a suggestive passage:

Quote

“To hear you speak of ambition, Spinnock, recalls to my mind another place, long, long ago. You and I….”
“Where I learned, at last,” Spinnock said, with no bitterness at all, “my destiny.”

When Anomander Rake says 'long, long ago' I think it's safe to say that he's not talking about a few thousand years.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 03:36 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

When he is talking to Rake for one possible reference. He is thinking to himself and mentions that he has played Kef Tanar with him for 10,000 years and never won a single game. I think...

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Thanks, found it:

Quote

"A crisis of faith, I think." Life like Kef Tanar, this skipping across paths. He does it so well, this man whom I have never defeated in our table top wars, not in ten thousand years.

Right, so there's no reason to suspect that Spinnock's lifespan is unnaturally extended and he's obviously not infirm in any way so we can safely say that Andii lifespans extend into tens of thousands of years - result!

edit: also, Spinnock's sword has only known three wielders since its forging at the Hust forge in Kharkanas, which obviously has to be before the birth of Light in KG, as a bit of supporting evidence.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

[rhulad]

I always just assumed that they were all close to being immortal if not actually like Rake. But I suppose if you're living for over 10000 years you may as well be.

[Abyss]

I tend to agree. Endest isn't a good example because notwithstanding his High Mage status he was broken holding Moonspawn under water in MoI. Similarly Darist is allegedly a son of Mommy D and may have given up draconic aspect, to unknown effect.

Otherwise Andii appear to count their ages in tens of thousands of years - certainly those who date back to any of the Tiste invasions that Ruin and Rake led (and from endest we know in Moonsspawn there were at least a few of these. Silch's people were wiped out by the Edur, except for the Bluerose survivors). We don't have a great perspective since draconic soletaken like Korlat are special and our other pov characters are either born on the malaz world (Nimander and co, Clip) or resurrected (Sandalath), which leaves only Spin as an example and he's into the 10k+ zone.

2000 years is negligible given the levels of immortal ennui ref'd in connection to the Andii. I'm figuring way longer.

- Abyss, plans on living forever.

[Imperial Historian]

My impression was an approximately 50,000 year lifespan for your average tiste andii, based on several assumptions that may or may not hold:

Endest Silan was old for an andii mage at over 300,000 years.

Life extension due to use of magic has an equivalent effect on expansion of lifespans for all races.

Tatersail at age 100 seems to be physically equivalent to someone in her thirties, assuming magic doesn't have any effect on lifespan prior to beginning using it at age 15-6, this is an approximate age extension around 5-6 times normal due to the use of magic.

So if we apply that back to endest we get a normal lifespan of 50,000 years, as a very rough approximation which feels about right to me. Andarist and Endest the two characters we know to have seen over 300000 years are both REALLY old despite the use of magic, and formerly being draconian, so 300000 must be an exceptionally long time.

Of course all those assumptions could be wildly inaccurate, but I'd say an age range of 40000-60000 years would be average, though the andii's numerous battles may lower the average age of death.

Hooray for spurious maths justifications.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

the Bluerose were part of Anomander's 'wave' right? There may have been survivors from Silchas' expedition but I'm pretty sure the bulk of the original Bluerose must have been part of Anomander's group, perhaps those who wanted to settle down..

Also, Tattersail is 219 years old in Gardens, not sure how that affects the maths

Quote

She entered her tent and closed
the flap behind her, then stood surveying her worldly possessions. Scant
few, after two hundred and nineteen years of life.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Are we certain that Andii would ever die do to old age? I mean, yea, there's not that many left now, and Sandalath talks about generations in DoD. But considering how volatile those times were with all the wars, isn't it possible that there is just a greater chance that all the older ones have died in battle? Especially with the information in MoI about the ennui they are suffering from, it makes sense that the older ones would have just given up by now. Only a few exceptional ones, and the "young ones" only tens of thousands of years old are able to withstand the stagnation of their lives.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the bluerose worshipped anomander, but they did not come to the world with him. they were the survivors of the edur betrayal, the old and the children and four (or was it five) barely grown sorcerers who protected the refugees and founded bluerose.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 January 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Are we certain that Andii would ever die do to old age? I mean, yea, there's not that many left now, and Sandalath talks about generations in DoD. But considering how volatile those times were with all the wars, isn't it possible that there is just a greater chance that all the older ones have died in battle? Especially with the information in MoI about the ennui they are suffering from, it makes sense that the older ones would have just given up by now. Only a few exceptional ones, and the "young ones" only tens of thousands of years old are able to withstand the stagnation of their lives.

the simple fact that the talk about lifespans and generations implies that they are not immortal. Also, Silchas says that the Forkrul Assail are 'profoundly long-lived. More so than any other species.' So yeah, it's pretty clear that non-Soletaken Andii die of natural causes at some point.

@Sinisdar: what is the source of your certainty here?

edit: Ahlrada Ahn's testimony I suppose, where he asserts that the Bluerose are survivors of the Edur betrayal:

Quote

Before she died, my mother told me many secrets.
The Bluerose are the survivors, from a war in which it was supposed
there were no survivors. It was believed the Edur had killed them all,
you see. It was necessary to believe that.’
‘You have lost me, Ahlrada Ahn,’ Trull said. ‘What war are you
speaking of?’
‘I am speaking of the Betrayal. When the Edur and the Andii fought
as allies against the K’Chain Che’Malle. The Betrayal, which was not
as the Edur histories would have it.

but this does not mean that all of the Bluerose were descended from Silchas' wave. The meeting of Silchas and Clip is somewhat ambiguous, but I may have to admit that it's more likely that the Bluerose were at least mostly descended from Silchas' group, though Silchas' first reaction may be telling, ie. 'they were this close?' Anyway, it sounds like Anomander came to visit the Bluerose after Silchas was imprisoned so it may be that they started to worship him after that.

Quote

“Kin,” said the wraith.
“A descendant of my followers, Wither?”
“Oh no, Silchas Ruin.”
Breath slowly hissed from the Tiste Andii. “My brother’s. They were this close?”
The young warrior drew closer, his pace almost sauntering. The tone of his skin was dusky, not much different from that of a Tiste Edur. He was twirling a chain in his right hand, the rings on each end blurring in the gloom. “Silchas Ruin,” he said, “I greet you on behalf of the Onyx Order of Andara. It has been a long time since we last met a Tiste Andii not of our colony.” The broad mouth quirked slightly. “You do not look at all as I had expected.”
“Your words verge on insult,” Silchas Ruin said. “Is this how the Onyx Order would greet me?”
The young warrior shrugged, the chain snapping taut for a beat, then spinning out once more. “There are K’risnan wards on the trail ahead of you -- traps and snares. Nor will you find what you seek in Bluerose, not the city itself nor Jasp nor Outbound.”
“How is it you know what I seek?”
“He said you would come, sooner or later.”
“Who?”
Brows rose. “Why, your brother. He didn’t arrive in time to prevent your getting taken down, nor the slaughter of your followers --”

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 07:27 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

@ Bre'nigan: there is a passage in either MT and RG describing the flight of the last of Silchas' followers, no books on me at the moment but i can try and find it later if you'd like

[Urizen]

Sinisdar Toste, on 11 January 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

@ Bre'nigan: there is a passage in either MT and RG describing the flight of the last of Silchas' followers, no books on me at the moment but i can try and find it later if you'd like

It is TBH. Ahlrada Ahn is thinking about how the Bluerose was founded. Basicly the stragglers and non-combatants from Silchas faction forms Bluerose. However in RG we are told that they are from Rake's faction by Clip.

As to the age thing. Spinnock is probably pushing 300 000 as in TTH we have conversation between Rake Endest about how Spinnock remembers Dossan Ryl(Sp?)(the big black depthless river from Kharkanas), from his childhood. Meaning that Spin must have lived in Kharkanas pre-invasion.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Urizen, on 11 January 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

As to the age thing. Spinnock is probably pushing 300 000 as in TTH we have conversation between Rake Endest about how Spinnock remembers Dossan Ryl(Sp?)(the big black depthless river from Kharkanas), from his childhood. Meaning that Spin must have lived in Kharkanas pre-invasion.

Good point. Endest has it from Spinnock that the river Endest later goes on a pilgrimage to has similarites to Dorssan Ryl.'

Alright so even my wildest ambitions for the Andii lifespans are humbled, typical. The weakest point then becomes the time depth of the Tiste invasion of the mortal realm. Peering closely at that piece of evidence, it becomes a bit shaky, since it relies, in part, upon Scabandari's judgement. He dismisses the Imass as a threat in the MT prologue and one would think he would take the undead version a bit more seriously, though his short-sightedness did promptly result in his demise so he cannot be considered entirely reliable. However, the fact that the K'Chain civil war was ongoing at the time of Silchas and Scabandari's wave coming strongly suggests that event precedes the Tellann ritual since in my mind at least, the K'Chain civil war must precede the Tellann ritual - if pressed I could wrap my head around why I believe that and find quotes to support it but for now it remains a simple assertion and I'd welcome a challenging theory. So, the way I currently see it, Andii routinely live for hundreds of thousands of years.