[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah, well, Twilights Andii blood is quite diluted and it is implied that apart from her and the Watch no one has Andii blood in their veins. Of course it would be problematic.
Spinnock, on the other hand, is a normal Andii and as suvh wouldn't have had any problem. Or so I think

[blackzoid]

If it was a blood issue, i'm sure Spinnock could have easily killed a lot of bunnies to do it.
He survived Assail and he left a lot of dead people after him when he did so.
If not, and his Andii blood is pure, then its just a warren opening ritual needed.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 12 January 2010 - 07:05 PM

[Abyss]

Tho much is made of Twilight's 'royal' blood, so her bloodline may be more significant despiter her being only distantly Tiste.

Plus the Watch is clearly more than human - hell, based on his thrown down with the FA and Liosan, he's more than Tiste too.

- Abyss, less than human.

[Hetan]

Regarding Twilight's royal blood - The Shake are the original peoples of Shadow - that has to count for something.

Regarding Endest's comment about being the last one left between himself and Anomander from those who came to the realm of Wu, Spinnock could well have come through with another wave of Andii, because Orfantal must have arrived with another group and joined up with Anomander some time later - he was a child when Sandalath was living in Kharkanas, yet Twilight (or it could be the Watch) talks about Silchas ordering Blind Gallan to make a road for the Shake. So perhaps he came with that group?

I also don't think it was possible for them to return to Kharkanas with the road closed, otherwise Endest would have made a pilgrimage to Kharkanas to see the real Dorssan Ril and not some local copy.

[Silencer]

Alright, solution:

1. Endest came through with Anomander.
2. Durav was born in Wu, shortly after their arrival in that world, and so, while growing up, had the first-hand stories of the Tiste Andii who had seen Dorssan Ryl to go by, so when he sees the river in the mountains he's like: "Oh, that reminds me of Dorssan Ryl!" in the sense that it reminds him from what he's been told not what he's seen.
3. Endest then, when arriving at the river, says that he is disappointed, and that it is, and I quote "Nothing like Dorssan Ryl" -> hence, Spinnock is clearly wrong in his comparison, as we KNOW Endest has seen it, therefore perhaps Spinnock has not seen it?

Wild speculation, of course, but it does account for the disparities.

[Hetan]

I don't think that you would use the term "reminds me" of something that you had never seen.
I really hate to say it but I think our favourite author made a mistake with this. Simple as that.

Edit : just found a reference to Edur life span :

Quote

For the Edur, grieving was less about loss than about being lost.
Is that what comes when you live a hundred thousand years?

MT

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 12 January 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

I don't think that you would use the term "reminds me" of something that you had never seen.
...

Unless it's in a "reminds me of stories i had heard about it" sort of way.


- Abyss, ...is reminded of this one time at band camp... umm... nevermind...

[Silencer]

Well, it's very much possible.

Considering Spinnock also says he's been playing Kef Tanar with Rake for 10,000 years, do we lean towards the mistake being Spinnock having seen Dorssan Ryl, or the mistake being Endest claiming to be the last? That answer would skew the estimates of the lifespan either way up or bring it back down a bit, wouldn't it?

Personally I lean towards the error being in Spinnock's supposed viewing of Dorssan Ryl. For obvious reasons, this helps account for his lack of ennui (though, as 'byss says, doing what he's been doing probably helps clear away that feeling, too), thought it perhaps also means weird things for the Spinnock/Rake friendship.

Hell, how do we account for Korlat/Serrat being the second in command of the Andii? How old are they? It makes more sense if Serrat was SIC of the Night Hunters (another part of the lore that hasn't shown up since GotM), unless Serrat is one of the ones Endest is meaning has died.

Argh. One day this will all be laid to rest. XD Then I will be a happy happy forumite.

EDIT: Yeah, that's what I mean, Abyss.

[HoosierDaddy]

Korlat became Soletaken with Rake, and Sandalath mentions her being a follower of Rake when he left for Wu in Midnight Tides.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 12 January 2010 - 09:29 PM

[Hetan]

Korlat says

Quote

If her Lord was well, then she would have to stand before him and formally sever her service – ending a relationship that had existed for fourteen thousand years, or, rather, suspending it for a time.

but I guess that is only to do with her position, rather than anything else.

Edit : Silchas left before Rake but Rake got to Wu first and Silchas arrived on the second wave. So Anomander had drunk of Tiam's blood, Silchas also drank and presumably Scabandari and they left soon afterwards - who knows where they went - then Anomander left and arrived on Wu first?

[HoosierDaddy]

Nevermind. Here's the quote I was thinking of:

Quote

"This world was foreign, after all. The gate sealed, swept away. her husband - if he still lived - was long past his grief. Her daughter, perhaps a mother herself by now, a grandmother. She had fed on draconic blood, there in the wake of Anomander."

So, only that Sandalath came with Ruin's group, and Korlat before her.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 12 January 2010 - 09:39 PM

[Blend]

Wasn't it mentioned in one of the books that there were more than two waves? Weren't the two that we're talking about the only two that 'matter' because they're the ones that directly affect the storyline? I don't have my books with me, and I suck at hunting down quotes anyway, but I feel like there were some conversations in either Midnight Tides between the Edur (I'm thinking the Stone Bowl with the Sengars' mother) or even conversations between Ruin and Scabandari before the betrayal? It's either there or later between Ruin and someone in his wacky group of companions when they're trying to get to the pocket warren where he plants the Azath.

Everyone's all worried about these semantics, but Spinnock could have come in any of those later waves, couldn't he? Not to mention that Erikson has always said to take someone's point of view, or some person's direct statement of fact with a grain of salt. It's coming from their minds, what they believe to be true, and is not necessarily true. Endest saying he was the last to witness Galain could mean that he was the last person in his wave to see it before they closed the portal. It could also mean that he was the last person to see it before mother dark 'coupled' with light and so poluted the world that used to be pure darkness - last to see the REAL Dorssan Ryl.

As for the opening of the portals thing - it's been pretty clearly stated that because Mother Dark is turned away from her children, so too is Kurald Galain closed off to them, hasn't it? The only reason Rake is able to do it is because he is the Son of Darkness, and his Soletaken draconic form spits it out. Clip needed the blood of all those Bluerose Andii to open the gate. Twilight needed to use her 'royal blood' to open the path. The only other examples we have of Galain being used or simply using the warren like a warren, and not to travel in it, not to go inside the warren of Darkness where Kharkanas and the first shore are...

[Grief]

Gardens of the Moon page 521 said:

Baruk was surprised that thise Tiste Andii had read Mammot's histories but, then, why not? A life spanning twenty thousand years necessitated hobbies, he supposed.

Assuming he's not speaking about Rake personally, which would make it a GoTM'ism, this would suggest a life considerably longer than the lower estimates of the thread, since Baruk is a generally well informed character, and I wouldn't expect him to be out by a huge margin.

[Grief]

Onto endest:

Toll the Hounds page 39 said:

An old man must needs have a thick skin, and was he not oldest by far? Excepting Anomander Dragnipurake.

Also these two, which I believe Silencer refers to:

Toll the Hounds page 39 said:

Anomander Dragnipurake had led hs score of surviving followers on to the strand of a new world. Behind the flaring rage in his eyes there had been triumph.

Toll the Hounds page 40 said:

Now, when he stood before his lord, he spoke of paltry things, and this was his legacy, all that remained.
Yet did I not stand with him on that strand? Am I not the last one to share with my lord that memory?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 12 January 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yeah, well, Twilights Andii blood is quite diluted and it is implied that apart from her and the Watch no one has Andii blood in their veins. Of course it would be problematic.
Spinnock, on the other hand, is a normal Andii and as suvh wouldn't have had any problem. Or so I think

Well then Silchas is a much older and more powerful Andii, and shouldn't have needed help opening a portal to KG...but he did.

[blackzoid]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 12 January 2010 - 11:21 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 12 January 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yeah, well, Twilights Andii blood is quite diluted and it is implied that apart from her and the Watch no one has Andii blood in their veins. Of course it would be problematic.
Spinnock, on the other hand, is a normal Andii and as suvh wouldn't have had any problem. Or so I think

Well then Silchas is a much older and more powerful Andii, and shouldn't have needed help opening a portal to KG...but he did.

Silchas is no longer a pure Andii however. He drank much more of Tiam's blood than did Rake.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Well, things are getting a bit crazy in here now, but it's been a useful process I think

The Shake are not simply diluted Andii. It doesn't follow that their road to Kharkanas should be accessible to the Andii, as it was made especially for them by Blind Gallan. See the thread about the Shake and the Edur regarding some tantalizing hints about the origin and nature of the Shake.

As far as the original question on this thread, the 'average' Andii lifespan, Hetan's quote settles it: If the Edur live a hundred thousand years, then the Andii certainly live at least as long. Endest for sure has lived more than 300 000 years as a High Mage and I'm willing to accept that Spinnock was probably born in the mortal realm and is much younger as it makes the most sense, all things considered - but I don't think the Andii were able to travel to Kharkanas prior to the Shake exodus so it must be as Silencer says, ie., that Spinnock is speaking from hearing first-hand accounts rather than personal experience.

The question of what constitutes an Andii 'generation' remains unsolved and will probably remain so since we have no good information regarding 'normal' Andii children. All the ones we know about are Soletaken.

I don't recall any mention of later waves of Andii coming to the mortal realm and I'm doubtful, though I'd be interested in seeing a supporting quote. As a point against the idea we have the following from Endest in Toll:

Quote

Kharkanas was virtually an empty city after they'd gone. Anomander Rake's first lordship over echoing chambers, empty houses.

[blackzoid]

Unfortunatedly Bre'nigan we know that Silchas Ruin and his group did arrive after Anomander's group.
Although, he could very well have gone to Kurald Emurhlann from Kurald Galain first before going to Wu. Actually that does make sense, there was only one rent mentioned in the epilogue to MT afterall. And Silchas would have had to meet up with Bloodeye to seal the alliance.
So while Anomander went from Kharkanas to Wu, Silchas went from Kharkanas to Kurald Emurhlann, and much later he and Bloodeye led their combined Edur/Andii group to Wu.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 January 2010 - 12:16 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

blackzoid, on 13 January 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

Unfortunatedly Bre'nigan we know that Silchas Ruin and his group did arrive after Anomander's group.
Although, he could very well have gone to Kurald Emurhlann from Kurald Galain first before going to Wu. Actually that does make sense, there was only one rent mentioned in the epilogue to MT afterall. And Silchas would have had to meet up with Bloodeye to seal the alliance.
So while Anomander went from Kharkanas to Wu, Silchas went from Kharkanas to Kurald Emurhlann, and much later he and Bloodeye led their combined Edur/Andii group to Wu.

I know all that - I was talking about Blend's suggestion of waves after Ruin's

edit: that is exactly how I see it playing out though - it's really the only way it makes sense, since Silchas leaves Kharkanas first and arrives second in the company of Scabby.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 13 January 2010 - 12:21 PM

[Edonidd]

Hetan, on 12 January 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

I really hate to say it but I think our favourite author made a mistake with this. Simple as that.

Edit : just found a reference to Edur life span :

Quote

For the Edur, grieving was less about loss than about being lost.
Is that what comes when you live a hundred thousand years?

MT

SE has a habit of doing that. Once he writes it down on paper he tends to forget it, it's right in line with his issues with the timelines. Not that is that big of a deal once you get used to it, but for a while it gave me fits as I would read something that completely wasn't in line with what I had read in previous books then would have to go back and find the specefic quote from the other book and compare them before realizing that they simply did not work together.

However, I do remember in somewhere refering to the Tiste Edur and stating that unlike the TA and TL they are not immortal. I always thought they had a pretty normal lifespan, maybe a bit longer than human but not obscenely so. None of them seem to be that old in any of the stuff we see of them. But if it states that they live to be 100,000 and they consider TA to be immortal, then if the Andii do have a lifespan it must be so far beyond the TE as to be essentially immortal as far as this series is concerned.