[Abyss]

I suspect that the point is that Tiste, or at least those of 'pure' blood born in Kurald Anything as opposed to generations born in the Malaz world, are effectively immortal in terms of aging. They can die due to damage. They can choose to die. But otherwise they just keep going. I didn't get the impression that any of the Mages in Bluerose were the original four who saved them post Betrayal, but maybe one generation removed.

Sandalath's point re generations is that the Andii birth kids rarely, so an entire generation is a concept that spans a REALLY long time, possibly thousands of years in itself before there are enough 'young' to constitute such a group.

Pure speculation, but it seemed that the Letherii Edur were not so ancient as the Moonspawn Andii - they seemd to have lifespans in the hundreds and possibly four digit thousands of years but nothing into even the tens of thousands, which suggests to me that life on the Malaz world doesn't give Tiste the same level of vitality as their home warrens.

- Abyss, really needs to get to the gym more.

[Silencer]

No, Spinnock was not alive in Karkhanas - it makes no sense. Endest says quite clearly he is the only one left who came to this world with Anomander Rake...I believe the memories of the river are ones of childhood stories...hence why Endest is the only one who knows that the river he visits is not actually anything like Dorssan Ryl.

EDIT: And regarding Abyss' point, I believe the Bluerose Andii were interbreeding with humans and/or Edur...there's passages somewhere throughout the trifecta of BH, RG and MT. That shortens their life spans considerably. They are so far removed from pure Andii now that most of their longevity is gone.

Also, the ennui we see would not take more than 20,000 years to set in, if even that. The reason the Soletaken can survive the ages without going insane or suffering from it is due to their draconian blood, which gives them a cold, and incredibly long view of life. So any Andii who does not seem depressed is either young (Spinnock, who is also special in that he has THINGS TO DO which he cares about), or soletaken. Endest, too, is somewhat inured to this via his belief in Rake, though that is failing due to the whole Moon's Spawn fiasco.

Essentially, from my understanding, Imperial Historian's life expectancy estimates are fairly solid. You've got 50k years or so for an Andii who doesn't let go of life due to depression, get stabbed, incinerated or poisoned (if you can even poison an Andii). Then you've got 200k years average for an Andii mage who also doesn't give in to any of the above (Endest being the exception to the rule for living to 300k without being taken down in battle or anything else), and you have functional immortality for the soletaken, barring severe wounds, as they no longer suffer from the ennui of the ages...

Based on this, without the blood of Tiam, Rake would have lasted a few hundred thousand years before dying of old age, *unless* we also assume that the first born of Mother Dark are special...which is quite possible.

Then you have to consider the longevity of other species too - Hood is a god...does that make him immortal, or is there some other reason he's stuck around for so goddamned long?

[Stradivarius]

the possible reason for the lack of age span in the edur could be the shattering of their warren of darkness? where as the Andii warren is still intack.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Bold words, Silencer. Quote? Quite clearly you say? Prove it, if you please.

Endest says that he is the oldest by far, aside from Anomander but that does not mean that nobody else survives from Kharkanas.

edit: crossposted with Silencer, Abyss, and Strad (I was eating)

@ Strad: the Edur warren is shadow, for starters. And yeah, my impression is that the Edur lifespan is less than that of the Andii and Liosan due to their 'impurity' not the state of ther warren so much , but you may have a point

@Silencer's most recent post: wild speculation unless you have some proof to offer.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 09:06 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

sorry for the double post, but I thought I might deal with this in more detail.

Silencer, on 11 January 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

No, Spinnock was not alive in Karkhanas - it makes no sense. Endest says quite clearly he is the only one left who came to this world with Anomander Rake...I believe the memories of the river are ones of childhood stories...hence why Endest is the only one who knows that the river he visits is not actually anything like Dorssan Ryl.

EDIT: And regarding Abyss' point, I believe the Bluerose Andii were interbreeding with humans and/or Edur...there's passages somewhere throughout the trifecta of BH, RG and MT. That shortens their life spans considerably. They are so far removed from pure Andii now that most of their longevity is gone.

Also, the ennui we see would not take more than 20,000 years to set in, if even that. The reason the Soletaken can survive the ages without going insane or suffering from it is due to their draconian blood, which gives them a cold, and incredibly long view of life. So any Andii who does not seem depressed is either young (Spinnock, who is also special in that he has THINGS TO DO which he cares about), or soletaken. Endest, too, is somewhat inured to this via his belief in Rake, though that is failing due to the whole Moon's Spawn fiasco.

Essentially, from my understanding, Imperial Historian's life expectancy estimates are fairly solid. You've got 50k years or so for an Andii who doesn't let go of life due to depression, get stabbed, incinerated or poisoned (if you can even poison an Andii). Then you've got 200k years average for an Andii mage who also doesn't give in to any of the above (Endest being the exception to the rule for living to 300k without being taken down in battle or anything else), and you have functional immortality for the soletaken, barring severe wounds, as they no longer suffer from the ennui of the ages...

Based on this, without the blood of Tiam, Rake would have lasted a few hundred thousand years before dying of old age, *unless* we also assume that the first born of Mother Dark are special...which is quite possible.

Then you have to consider the longevity of other species too - Hood is a god...does that make him immortal, or is there some other reason he's stuck around for so goddamned long?

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to achieve here. I don't think anvybody disputes that interbreeding with the Edur and humans would reduce the lifespan of the resulting offspring - it's entirely beside the point. We're talking about pure-blood Andii

The rest is just baseless assertions. Belive what you want, but don't expect anyone to tag along without some supporting evidence

[Silencer]

@Bren, proof forthcoming. I have a phenomenal memory for these books. Besides which, this a SPECULATION thread...unless YOU have a quote with a natural Andii death? Has anyone here provided proof of any speculation in here? Have you? No.

Besides which, IH agrees with my assumptions on the lifespan regardless, or did you miss his post?

Regards the Bluerose Andii, I was talking to Abyss, not you.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Silencer, on 11 January 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

@Bren, proof forthcoming. I have a phenomenal memory for these books. Besides which, this a SPECULATION thread...unless YOU have a quote with a natural Andii death? Has anyone here provided proof of any speculation in here? Have you? No.

Besides which, IH agrees with my assumptions on the lifespan regardless, or did you miss his post?

Regards the Bluerose Andii, I was talking to Abyss, not you.

Well, I think that Endest trusting Spinnock's opinion that the river near Black Coral 'reminded him' of Dorssan Ryl was pretty good evidence for Spinnock having been present back in Kharkanas. You dispute that, with no comparable evidence. The burden of proof is on you, I think, as I don't think it makes sense for Endest to take Spinnock seriously enough to mention it to Anomander-fucking-Rake if he knows that Spinnock was not there to see it. The more important and interesting questions regarding the time depth here lie elsewhere, imo, but by all means, let's see what proof ou can find for Endest being the only survivor from Kharkanas.

And it seems you agree with IH regarding lifespans, not the other way around He came up with the idea, after all...

[Silencer]

He posted it first. And actually, shouldn't you have provided proof in your first post if it's so important? Just saying that "Oh, Endest takes Spinnock's word for.." is not proof...can you prove that? Or do I have prove stuff while you don't?

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Mate, it ought to be clear by now that I'm trying to achieve some kind of definitive result. I've used quotes and logical reasoning based on those quotes to arrive at conclusions, which may or may not be accurate since I'm not SE and I don't know for sure.

My first post was about trying to determine the length of the Andii civil war and was informed by some of the responses with regard to the Andii lifespan. I think the progression ought to be clear to anyone who read the entire thread.

In any case, we don't have definitive proof for many questions in the Malazan world, so we have to rely upon the less-then-perfect information/evidence that we can glean from the books. I've laid out in detail the cognitive trail that has lead me to believe that Andii lifetimes are measured in hundreds of thousands of years - you have plenty of material to work with if you want to dispute it - simply asserting something different is not useful. What. Is. Your. Argument??

edit: just so we know what we're talking about here, the quote is reproduced below:

Quote

Endest to Anomander Rake: 'Spinnock Durav has seen it, walked its shores. He says it reminds him of Dorssan Ryl."

For me, that is decent evidence for Spinnock having been alive before all hell broke loose in Kurald Galain. By all means dispute it, but spare me the baseless assertions.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 10:15 PM

[Imperial Historian]

Nice quote fu Bre'nigan, seems my assumptions have failed me. Very interesting that spinnock is old enough to have seen kharkanas, I didn't get the impression that he was that old at all, and he seems to have largely beaten the typical andii enuii without any help from soletaken-ness.

This adds a whole new element to things though... endest is physically old, despite the use of magic. Spinnock using no magic appears to be middle-aged at most. We know that andii deteriorate physically from age due to andarist and endest, so spinnock must be younger than them by some measure. Also judging from what we know andii only came to the world in two waves, one under anomander and one under silchas. The one under silchas took place at a minimum of 300000 years ago, but probably longer. So spinnock must be 300000 years old, even if leaving kharkanas as a child, making the lifespan of endest as 400000 plus, with andarist, ruin and rake significantly older still. That's a long time.

That said I'm now inclined to think that the generations that the andii civil war lasted does not refer to the lifespan of the andii, but more how long it takes for them to have children. After all if andii have children say every 20000 years, then there children are going to have children, and there children are going to have children ad infinitum, before the original parent died there could be a large number of generations of andii children within a single lifetime of 300000 years.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Imperial Historian, on 12 January 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Nice quote fu Bre'nigan, seems my assumptions have failed me. Very interesting that spinnock is old enough to have seen kharkanas, I didn't get the impression that he was that old at all, and he seems to have largely beaten the typical andii enuii without any help from soletaken-ness.

This adds a whole new element to things though... endest is physically old, despite the use of magic. Spinnock using no magic appears to be middle-aged at most. We know that andii deteriorate physically from age due to andarist and endest, so spinnock must be younger than them by some measure. Also judging from what we know andii only came to the world in two waves, one under anomander and one under silchas. The one under silchas took place at a minimum of 300000 years ago, but probably longer. So spinnock must be 300000 years old, even if leaving kharkanas as a child, making the lifespan of endest as 400000 plus, with andarist, ruin and rake significantly older still. That's a long time.

That said I'm now inclined to think that the generations that the andii civil war lasted does not refer to the lifespan of the andii, but more how long it takes for them to have children. After all if andii have children say every 20000 years, then there children are going to have children, and there children are going to have children ad infinitum, before the original parent died there could be a large number of generations of andii children within a single lifetime of 300000 years.

OK, my thoughts are jumbled here, I'll try not to ramble but it may be unavoidable.

First, Spinnock having seen Dorssan Ryl is a bit weird. Could be an inconsistency, despite our best efforts. I wanted to say that Endest could be prematurely aged due to holding Moon's Spawn together for months but Nimander's remembrances of him as a child depict him as an old man so that's no good. Perhaps his efforts back in Kharkanas on Anomander's behalf aged him? Weak I admit, but not impossible. Alternatively, it could be that aging among the Andii is largely a matter of will and Endest has felt broken since the split with MD.

As for Spinnock defeating the Andii penchant for ennui, well Rake has kept him pretty busy hunting dragons, touring continents of violent insanity and whatnot No time to get bored though he seems to be succumbing a bit in Toll.

And yeah, my understanding of the word 'generation' in this context is essentially the length of time before a new crop of adults emerges, 20 years is standard for a human generation (historically, perhaps not as valid now). Sandalath implies that an Andii generation is a long time so we have to assume dramatically reduced fertility, relative to humans and/or a prolonged childhood/adolescence, probably both. Perhaps Andii women can choose whether or not to allow fertilization and rarely choose to or it's just very rare for a coupling to result in pregnancy - would make the free-love religion make sense and I think this is the most likely. I can't imagine a childhood extending into the thousands of years so even if it's a couple of hundred years before they reach sexual maturity, it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on the length of a generation so really, it must be that fertilization is just very rare. Still, I don't think the typical generation, as we're using the term here, could be longer than a few thousand years at most, which would still be very long relative to human generations. So...this doesn't help me narrow down the length of the Andii civil war after all, aside from setting a minimum at about ten thousand years, perhaps even a bit less - still a helluva long war by any estimation.

Also, I am reassured about the Tiste invasion occurring before the Tellann ritual. Trull says outright in HoC that they arrived beofre the ritual so that's solid

[Hetan]

The problem with comparing Andii ages with Endest as an example is that he is not a good example.
He says the only one older than him of the Andii is Anomander Rake himself.
Throughout the book he is described as old and ancient, even from the POV of Nimander etc from Drift Avalii - apart from when he was young in Karkhanas

So his long life is attributed to the fact that Andii live long lives anyway and he is a High Mage.

But he believed himself to be broken - that he is no longer a high mage

Quote

“Tell me, Endest, what stirs in the Great Barrow?”
“Lord?”
“Is it Itkovian? Do we witness in truth the birth of a new god?”
“I do not know, Lord. I am closed to such things.” As I have been since that day in the Temple.

Quote

And while perhaps Endest had earned the right to the first sentiment -- a once powerful mage now broken -- he did not the second.

and he believed this before he used his power holding Moon's Spawn under the water.

Quote

"He is convinced he was broken, long ago, High Priestess. We both know it is not true."
She nodded. "He proved that when he sustained Moon's Spawn beneath the sea – proved it to everyone but himself."

So it could be that his appearance - that of a broken old man - is partly due to that belief, because that is a long time to live with those thoughts in your head.

[Juvenis]

Stradivarius, on 11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

the possible reason for the lack of age span in the edur could be the shattering of their warren of darkness? where as the Andii warren is still intack.

Now that is an interesting theory, I'd say.

Perhaps my impression of the average Andii living 4,000 years was affected by the Edur (who seem to have much more brief lives). Certainly the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn had to have some profound effects on the Tiste Edur. If every Andii can access Kurald Galain--which may contribute to their longevity--the fact that the Edur warren is broken could result in "broken" lives.

Does anyone else have ideas and/or evidence to support/discredit this theory?

[Illuyankas]

There's also the intertribal warfare that probably cuts lifespans down a bit for the Edur.

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 12 January 2010 - 01:27 PM, said:

...
So it could be that his appearance - that of a broken old man - is partly due to that belief, because that is a long time to live with those thoughts in your head.

Makes sense. if Andii can give up and die, so to speak, then their thinkymeatz can affect their physical state. Humans can do it, so why not Tiste?

Juvenis, on 12 January 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

... If every Andii can access Kurald Galain--which may contribute to their longevity--the fact that the Edur warren is broken could result in "broken" lives.
...

I think you're onto something there. In theory, to some extent, EVERY Tiste is a mage, hence, every tiste has an extended lifespan. The Edur being linked to a weaker/broken/corrupted warren, are not quite as extended as the Andii.

Illuyankas, on 12 January 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

There's also the intertribal warfare that probably cuts lifespans down a bit for the Edur.

Can't help.

But just to mess with things, Omtose Phellack is heavily damaged by the Imass Jihads, yet Huntress, Ganath and other Jaghut not aspected to anyone else appear to be massively powerful and effectively immortal, subject to little things like an axe to the head.

The KC in DoD are the last remnants of their race. Their Matron/power source is bugnuts and exhausted. Yet that didn't seem to have any effect that was acknowledged.

Could be a racial/genetic element, rather than a warren. More likely a combination of both, since 'normal' Imass are neither long-lived nor immortal.

- Abyss, genetically challenged.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think it has to do with the more intrinsic linkage between the tiste and the kuralds as basic elemental manifestations. if it's "as with mother dark, so to with father light" why not, "as with kurald, so to with tiste"?

[blackzoid]

Per what Silencer posted earlier, Endest quite clearly says that only he was the last survivor(other then Rake) of the first wave of Andii that came to the world. However Spinnock has stated that he walked the shores of Dorssan Ryl.
There need not be a conflict between these two points:

1: Spinnock could have been born on Wu, but travelled to Kharakanas at any point in time and seen the river. The Andii were not bared from Kurald Galain right? They just did not expect to meet Mother Dark there.
2: Spinnock could have been in the second wave that arrived with Silchas Ruin. We don't know the passage of time between Anomander;s arrival and Silchas's arrival. He could have escaped the Edur betrayel.
3: Spinnock could have arrived with Andarist. (Its not certain that Andarist led a group of followers himself onto the world, or arrived with Anomander's crowd)

I personally go with the theory that he was born on Wu, but travelled to Kurald Galain to visit. The Shake did not have any major problems getting there did they?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 12 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Apart from draining Twilight of most of her blood to make a portal... No?

[blackzoid]

Well, he could have used some other way to get into it in the past. He survived Assail, so don't discount his ingenuity/courage/skill. Perhaps he even bled a previous Twilight of the Shake.
Maybe its un-Spinnock like for him to do it, but its the best explanation for his age in my opinion.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I'm pretty sure you need a crap-load of blood to fashion a portal to KG. The only two times we see it in the books is when the Shake open the portal using almost all of Twilight's blood, and when the Bluerose Andii allow themselves to be slaughtered so that Clip, Silchas and that gang can travel through KG.