[Abyss]

Solid quote fu.

I go back to my view that they are Cotillion's original knives from when he was Dancer. He's kept them even tho as a god of shadow he doesn't need them, and now he's about to do something important and there's a significance to his bringing his 'human' weapons along.


- Abyss, pointedly.

[Illuyankas]

They're probably from his shaving kit, specially invested to tame back his gloriously flowing moustache to fool others into thinking he's not as awesome as he really is. Time to take the gloves off. Time for the Shadow Tache Dance.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I think it has something to do with Starvald Demelain. Perhaps find a way to throw the gate wide open and try to flood the world with Dragons. I'm not sure if there are any dragons left there, because in RG it seemed to be pretty dead. BUT if there are, it would mean allowing the driving force of all magic back in the world. PERHAPS, this could lead to an increased potency for everyone in the realm, and just one hell of a shit-storm. It could be that he is also going to try and kill K'rul after he does this to redress the balance of power. But I'm not sure I believe SE would leave the story as a world w/o magic.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, if the Otataral Dragon comes back, bringing back Tiam, Mother of Dragons, perhaps she'll give birth to new dragons, thus diminishing the fact that the ones trapped in SD seem dead.

An aside, if Tiam comes back and brings back feral eleint, magic is going to go wobbly in Wu again, isn't it.... and end to K'rul's Bargain. So, are those who seek to free the OD actually trying to get rid of K'rul through indirect means?

[Blend]

My theory is that Cots is on his way to try to free the CG, the panic thing comes from the decimation of the Bonehunters who were his 'mortal army' or his means to do it. Cots has got to be connected to Tavore somehow - she had a Talon follow her sister in the Otataral mines to keep her safe. Seeing as the Talons are Cots' assassins, it makes sense that maybe Tavore is more involved in all this then we had first realized.

He's been helping Shadowthrone do the throne thing because the more gods and elder gods are fighting among themselves to keep them all from realizing what his true motive is. What he IS doing has pretty much all been very behind the scenes, and only a very select few have any idea that he's even doing this stuff.

So, I think that Shadowthrone is trying to let loose as many gods as possible - including the Otataral Dragon and the such - under the premise that they are going to have to chain the CG again, but really so that they all go around killing each other so that he can gain all the power and then let the humans rule themselves, out from under a god's thumb.

Cots is using this is a distraction from the fact that he wants to FREE the CG and such. It fits the whole "They won't understand what you're doing" and "It's been tried before" things. When the CG first was pulled down, he was destroyed, and parts of him were scattered through the world. Freeing the CG would mean that he would have to be put back together too. So, I imagine someone has tried to 'heal' the CG without success previously, and that none of the gods, humans, etc, would understand or agree with the idea that the CG needs to be healed. The biggest problem with the CG is that he's in extreme pain at all times... Could be because his body's scattered through the world, and could be that if he's healed, he'll be able to go back where he came from and stop trying to destroy the world.

Add to all of that the part in DoD where Quick Ben is talking to Bottle (I think it's those two) and it's mentioned that QB thinks Tavore is trying to go and break the CG's chains... And that's why she is hoping they remain 'unwitnessed'. Cots is hoping to remain 'unnoticed'. Edgewalker is only the first of the gods to really realize what he's trying to do, and I imagine that this scene indicates that Edgewalker doesn't think it will work, but will tag along to see how it goes down. I imagine that if Cots gets close he may have to actually deal with Edgy, and many other gods once they realize what he's trying to do.

Hope that wasn't too convoluted, and made some sense to people.


I had another crazy theory while reading the Abyss read it thread... Icarium is Gothos' child, okay... but what if Gothos created him from a piece of the CG? There is precedent for the Jaghut creating creatures as shown by the Nacht (I think?) and the Stormriders.... So, what if Gothos tried to create a new race, and Icarium was the result... It would tie Icarium into the story nicely. He will be needed to heal the CG too, because he's part of him. I know... Crazy theory... But I had to write it down somewhere!

This post has been edited by Blend: 07 January 2010 - 10:56 PM

[Paran]

From the hints I get the feeling that Rake has been setting a lot of things up - from Paran and the Hounds in his sword leading to a "reawakening" of Draconus to Whiskeyjack and Hood's reinventions, to his death and MD's rebirth, drawing out of the EG's (perhaps even bringing Krul back in the game). I believe he is forcing a changing of the guard and in some way making those hoary old goats take responsibility for all their old f@ck ups (CG, dragons, OD etc) and instigate a changing of the guard. It began in TtH, and will be completed in TCG.

[Blend]

Paran, on 08 January 2010 - 02:53 AM, said:

From the hints I get the feeling that Rake has been setting a lot of things up - from Paran and the Hounds in his sword leading to a "reawakening" of Draconus to Whiskeyjack and Hood's reinventions, to his death and MD's rebirth, drawing out of the EG's (perhaps even bringing Krul back in the game). I believe he is forcing a changing of the guard and in some way making those hoary old goats take responsibility for all their old f@ck ups (CG, dragons, OD etc) and instigate a changing of the guard. It began in TtH, and will be completed in TCG.

Well, you're partly right... Replace Anomander Rake with Shadowthrone and Cotillion and you've got it. They're the ones who have been behind the scenes of all of this... They manipulated Rake by using his loyalty to his values and his all around goodguyness. When you know someone will do the right thing in a bad situation, all you have to do to control them is control the situation and make it bad...

[Paran]

Blend, on 08 January 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Well, you're partly right... Replace Anomander Rake with Shadowthrone and Cotillion and you've got it. They're the ones who have been behind the scenes of all of this... They manipulated Rake by using his loyalty to his values and his all around goodguyness. When you know someone will do the right thing in a bad situation, all you have to do to control them is control the situation and make it bad...

I think you're really underestimating Rake and the subtlety with which he operates and how much was probably involved. Consider Gothos' message to him, Draconus' awe (consider this in the context of the fear everyone else associates with Draconus), Kilimandaros' thoughts, his keeping tabs on Assail, politicking in Karakanas with getting all the families to agree to his thinking. His unveiling of Dragnipur's powers showed how little he'd relied on the sword and his conservatism in using that power hints at much too. I don't discount that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are playing a game too and they are very much cheats, but I believe that Rake has had a lot to do with the manipulations of the EGs.

[Blend]

Paran, on 11 January 2010 - 07:39 AM, said:

Blend, on 08 January 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Well, you're partly right... Replace Anomander Rake with Shadowthrone and Cotillion and you've got it. They're the ones who have been behind the scenes of all of this... They manipulated Rake by using his loyalty to his values and his all around goodguyness. When you know someone will do the right thing in a bad situation, all you have to do to control them is control the situation and make it bad...

I think you're really underestimating Rake and the subtlety with which he operates and how much was probably involved. Consider Gothos' message to him, Draconus' awe (consider this in the context of the fear everyone else associates with Draconus), Kilimandaros' thoughts, his keeping tabs on Assail, politicking in Karakanas with getting all the families to agree to his thinking. His unveiling of Dragnipur's powers showed how little he'd relied on the sword and his conservatism in using that power hints at much too. I don't discount that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are playing a game too and they are very much cheats, but I believe that Rake has had a lot to do with the manipulations of the EGs.

I always took what Rake was doing to have been done in the better interest of the Tiste Andii. He only went through with the breaking of Dragnipur once everything was in place to get MD to turn back towards her children. He set everything up so that he could free the gate to KG from Dragnipur, and try to save a people who had been in decline and despair because their creator, goddess, mother had turned away. What ST and Cots are doing is on a much larger scale - in the better interest of human life, so to speak. If Rake was really trying to manipulate everything else that was going on - the accounting of the EGs, and so on - he would have probably been a lot more useful alive and wielding Dragnipur - Draconus notwithstanding. So, I retain firmly my belief that Rake did what he did because of the events that were orchestrated by ST and Cots.

Control of a situation again. If you know someone will do something specific given a chance, just give him that chance. It's a good way to get rid of one of those hoary old bastards (i.e. Rake) and force a couple of the others into play (i.e. Hood and Draconus). The fact that the first of those hoary bastards is probably the most noble being alive was just a downside.

[blackzoid]

You are forgetting that Shadowthrone met Hood and Edgewalker and probably Rake at the very start of Toll the Hounds.
While that meeting probably focused on what to do about Dragnipur, how much else did they discuss? It may not be a case of manipulation between Sahdowthrone and Rake, but more along the lines of an agreed plan of action to carry out.
Perhaps Rake agreed to Shadowthrones grand scheme then, we don't know.

[Blend]

blackzoid, on 12 January 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

You are forgetting that Shadowthrone met Hood and Edgewalker and probably Rake at the very start of Toll the Hounds.
While that meeting probably focused on what to do about Dragnipur, how much else did they discuss? It may not be a case of manipulation between Sahdowthrone and Rake, but more along the lines of an agreed plan of action to carry out.
Perhaps Rake agreed to Shadowthrones grand scheme then, we don't know.

That's possible too... I mean, I can see Rake being all in for getting rid of all the gods, he was the original "I don't wanna be a god but I am forced to be" in the series, and he usually only gets involved in human affairs because there are other gods trying to use those humans for their own means.

Still, I bet that whatever they talked about, Shadowthrone was nowhere near honest, and even if he was, he almost definitely was not forthcoming with all the details, or even his reasons for wanting things done the way he wants them done. I still put faith in the idea that Shadowthrone manipulated the events - even if an 'agreement' was reached, I am sure it was because Rake did not know exactly why Shadowthrone wanted to be involved or wanted the agreement in the first place. Heck, Shadowthrone probably made it seem like it was the ONLY way Rake could do this.

If Rake really knew what Shadowthrone was up to, how many hands Shadowthrone really has in the pot, how Shadowthrone is USING every mortal soul he can to get his way, he would probably do something about it, and Rake would be high up on my list of gods not to piss off. So what does he do, he has him kill himself. Seems like a perfect way for Shadowthrone to get rid of Rake to me!

This post has been edited by Blend: 13 January 2010 - 09:45 PM

[Ulrik]

Well, its always good to get rid of someone very (ok, very) powerful. And ST with this incapacitated maybe two dangerous mans - Dassem is broken, will he recover? And with this, Hood is safe for a while... and ST´s favourite boys are in crucial position. And of course, Chaos was stopped in Dragnipur, MD awakened, so Letherii gods have another thing to be scared of... a do not forget that Rake killed two ST´s pets:)

But I do not think that Rake was manipulated. He knew what had to be done. He needed it. And there is always his friend and reset button Caladan. It was equal exchange - his life and future interventions for stopping chaos and renesation of Andii.

[Fiddler's Promise]

What stuck out to me, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, was the state of his knives - ragged from the armour and bones of their recent victims. Granted, that could have referred to victims from a long time ago, but I got the sense that Cotillion had just used those knives on someone or something. This seems likely to me, as the first comment he makes is "I have no intention of explaining a damn thing." - seems to indicate that he has just done something that might require explanation.

That begs the question - who did he just kill? It would have to be someone/thing wearing armour - but that doesn't narrow the list down much. Dragons essentially have armour, as do most soldiers. It would also need to be someone whose death/assassination might confuse Edgewalker. Someone who we previously believed to be an ally of ST and Cot? Was killy wearing her armour at the end of DoD when she and setch set off to free the OD? That would be a heck of a fight.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

To me it sounded more like the knives had nicks that they had acquired over the years. Nothing recent. Which probably lends credence to the idea that they were knives from his career as Dancer, because if he had new special magical god-knives I doubt they would be showing wear and tear.


If you are correct however, I think the interesting fact that you are overlooking is that Cotillion just engaged in some wholesale slaughter somewhere near Edgewalker. Which means in shadow. Which means he just slaughtered some servants, or someone was attacking/infiltrating his and ST's home. Which would be VERY Intriguing...

[Uli]

Hi, new here

Now I could be wrong, still working my way through my malazan reread here, but i can't help thinking Cots will be going into starvald demelain. In one of the books (must have been MT or early RG) Shadowthrone and Menandore meet and he walks away with her alllowing him (or something like that) to access sd. She extract a promise from him though that he will not do it more than once to which he promises that he (implied personally) won't.

iirc then that gate/passage has not been used yet?

I could be wrong and just not remember where/when it was used. I am only up to RG on the reread and I find I notice things much better now, probably because for once this reread is being allowed tot ake a long time.

anyway just my two cents...

[Hetan]

I think you'll find that access to that gate has already been used - you mentioned that you had read up to RG? I'm sure on your re-read, you'll find out when that happened

[Malaclypse]

I'll go one better...

No worry of spoilers in this forum so...the meeting between Menandore, Hood and Shadowthrone was incidental - Shadowthrone had planned beyond Menandore certainly and probably Hood as well. Remember that Shadowthrone and Cotillion (as Kellanved and Dancer) have explored the Azath even more thoroughly that Gothos, (according to the quote whose provenance I cannot currently recall but will provide given some time) and with the birth of the Azath in the Refugium, which is within Starvald Demelain, can travel at will. This, IMO, was one of the major happenings of RG and ought to be noted

[HoosierDaddy]

That being said, is it Cotillion and Shadowthrone who are going to "reawaken" Tiam to fight the Otataral Dragon? Is that what Cotillion is on his way to do?

[Hetan]

Well the way it was worded at the end there with Edgewalker following him and the reference - 'We have done this before' - I thought that Cotillion was heading off to free the three dragons but I have no idea really, unless he is also going to try and free the otataral dragon. That's going to be one helluva party if that is the case.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

H.D., on 21 January 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

That being said, is it Cotillion and Shadowthrone who are going to "reawaken" Tiam to fight the Otataral Dragon? Is that what Cotillion is on his way to do?

Of course not. Kilmandaros is clearly the one to free her (irony=something that SE loves). The thing is, it will all work towards Shadowthrone's mad brilliant plan, which will be delicious in its final accounting Cotillion is in a supporting role, obviously