[amphibian]

Cougar, on 08 December 2009 - 12:34 AM, said:

Why do you all shit your pants about spoilers, it's not that hard to use the spoiler function. There are things that bear discussion that shouldn't be in the Inn but don't have a home in a book forum, exercising a little caution and spoilering properly is all that needs to happen.

If you want people to be more welcoming to visitors, not taking this kind of tone would go a long way towards setting a good example. I had to fight off an irrational desire to write a snarky response to you.

I think there's a bit of speculative concern about these hypothetical new people being spoiled to heck in the general forums, if things get out of hand. However, as you've said, careful usage of the spoiler tags and gentle education of the recruits about functions like that should take care of it. The rest is idle speculation until things get implemented.

[alt146]

I think a general forum is a good idea - the 'every book before is fair game in subforum x' works well for the most part, but remember the confusion about exactly where in the forums ROTCG forums should be considered fair game? And with more ICE novels and the two trilogies coming, a general series forum makes sense. Once those books are out, there's no guarantee newcomers will have read the series in the order the books were published, since there will be 3-4 new entrypoints into the series.

The spoiler thing shouldnt be too much of an issue. There's lots of threads where discussion is vague, like the current thread about who should play who in an MBOTF movie. Maybe a subforum of the general forum should be a no-holds barred, no spoilers required area for detailed discussion. You can put a big notice up to make sure people know that they shouldnt read stuff from in there unless they've read all the books, and any discussions in the general area that start to contain nothing but spoiler tags can be moved over to make them easier to read.

[Centzon Totochtin]

Thanks for all the hard work you guys put in, I like the propsed changes.

I agree with Cougar on the spoilers, the spoiler function is easy to use and people just need to write DoD spoiler ot Midnight Tides spoiler so people know if they can read it or not

This post has been edited by Centzon Totochtin: 08 December 2009 - 06:11 AM

[Cougar]

amphibian, on 08 December 2009 - 12:53 AM, said:

If you want people to be more welcoming to visitors, not taking this kind of tone would go a long way towards setting a good example. I had to fight off an irrational desire to write a snarky response to you.

I'm sorry I can't hear you over the sound of shattering glass.

[Abyss]

Cougar, on 08 December 2009 - 12:34 AM, said:

...There are things that bear discussion that shouldn't be in the Inn but don't have a home in a book forum, ...

Example?

alt146, on 08 December 2009 - 06:03 AM, said:

I think a general forum is a good idea - the 'every book before is fair game in subforum x' works well for the most part, but remember the confusion about exactly where in the forums ROTCG forums should be considered fair game? And with more ICE novels and the two trilogies coming, a general series forum makes sense. Once those books are out, there's no guarantee newcomers will have read the series in the order the books were published, since there will be 3-4 new entrypoints into the series...

I recognize that we're trying to open the accessibility and it's all good but take this to the (il)logical end and about a year or three from now we would need... by non-exhaustive example... and only in respect of the books:

One general all books NO spoilers UBER anything goes subforum;
One general all books spoilers allowed UBER anything goes subforum;
One general MBF-specific NO spoilers subforum;
One general MBF-specific spoilers allowed subforum;
Ten book specific MBF subforums;
One general B&KB Novella subforum (spoilers? no spoilers???);
Four specific Novella subforums;
One general ICE/Malazan Empire series NO spoilers subforum;
One general ICE/ME series spoilers allowed subforum;
Three (eventually more) book specific ICE/ME subforums;
One general Anomander Rake trilogy NO spoilers subforum;
One general Anomander Rake trilogy spoilers allowed subforum;
One (eventually three) Anomander Rake trilogy book specific subforum...
and so on and so on and so on...

...see where this is going? eventually we need series-fora and book fora and no spoiler form and fora gods' sakes enuf is enuf. (heehee see what i did there? ), to say nothing of trying to decipher which spoilers are okay where... rather than making this easier on new arrivals we're going to send them screaming in horror back to Dragonmount or wherever .

The books are written in an order. Don't want to read them in order? Fine, but we're not required to protect anyone's future enjoyment just because they take a lazy approach to the concept of time. Darth Vader is Luke's father. If someone missed that little fact because they skipped directly to The Phantom Menace knowing there were three movies already made that's not my problem (that's not an invitation to a debate about Star Wars actually being part 4... i'm on a roll, shut up and let me finish).

I suggest ONE general, anything goes, spoilers allowed, any book, any time uber forum.

I also suggest we preserve the approach that any earlier book (by ICE, SE, or thier illlegally made mash-up clones the existance of which i deny and further deny any involvement with) is spoilers open in any more recent book, because not being able to discuss RCG in the TtH subforum is just silly when the books overlap and both have been widely available for a year or more.

Centzon Totochtin, on 08 December 2009 - 06:10 AM, said:

...people just need to write DoD spoiler ot Midnight Tides spoiler so people know if they can read it or not

...and i think we can make THAT reasonably clear without terrifying anyone.


- Abyss, liked it better in the olde days when everyone had to obscure spoilers with smoke signals...

[alt146]

My suggestion wasn't quite so exhaustive, I figured one general forum covering everything remotely malazan would be enough, but it would need to be spoilered since chances are a lot of newcomers would ask general questions in it. Then a sub-forum which doesnt require spoiler tags for people who want to discuss things that dont belong in a specific book forum but still involve a lot of specific references, in order to avoid threads that are nothing but spoiler tags. All the other series/books would just get a subforum as they are released and would be spoilered sideways/forwards the way they are now. Obviously it's up to you mods though.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I think the best way to do it would be to allow any spoilers in the general forum, since it covers everything. if people aren't done with the series they should stick to the specific books they have read.

[D'rek]

I'm kinda with Abyss on this one - this is getting too complicated, both in the purpose of the different sub-forums and the policies for each. If there is to be a general forum, then I think it should either be a "starter" forum where absolutely no spoilers are allowed (geared towards people who are about to start the books, are only a few pages into GotM or who just want more info about the authors/series themselves, ie: "I bought RG, is this the 1st book in the series?", etc), or the general forum should be a "end" forum where there is no spoiler policy and any and all book/series/author-related stuff can be discussed concerning the entire series so far (though for politeness sake threads about more obscure books like the novellas would mention that they spoiler such in the title).

Or both I guess, but not more than that. Practically anything else can be directed as belonging in one of those 2 forums or in the specific book forum (ie Member Introductions could be in the starter forum, who-would-play threads in the end forum {theyd inevitably spoiler someone if anywhere else}, etc)


Ah well, I like change. Whatever we go with, we'll see soon enough if it works or doesn't and change again accordingly anyways.

[Cougar]

Abyss I've given examples before, I'm not writing the same thing out again, lazy moggy.

I do not know why it is causing you guys such issues. You have a general forum, it covers, the more frivolous elements ofcharacter discussion, who has the best swords, what is your fave book and why. It has community news (so meet ups BBQs etc) and maybe some stuff like the Naina thread etc that doesn't want to be in the inn cos it gets mocked, but isn't a book discussion thread.

Anything can be discussed, but anything that is a spoiler is spoilered IN EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER YOU HAVE TO FOR OTHER FANTASY AND MOVIES THREADS which is managed quite easily. If you want to create a thread where spoilers don't apply then put in the title SPOILERS UP TO RotCG or whatever and people will know. This is dead simple.

In all honesty, I'm not 100% it'll work as an idea, but we need a more accesible area for people to start in, we can not be responsible if people don't take the time to read the advice we will post or the rules and spoiler themselves.

[D'rek]

Cougar, on 08 December 2009 - 09:18 PM, said:

Abyss I've given examples before, I'm not writing the same thing out again, lazy moggy.

I do not know why it is causing you guys such issues. You have a general forum, it covers, the more frivolous elements ofcharacter discussion, who has the best swords, what is your fave book and why. It has community news (so meet ups BBQs etc) and maybe some stuff like the Naina thread etc that doesn't want to be in the inn cos it gets mocked, but isn't a book discussion thread.

Anything can be discussed, but anything that is a spoiler is spoilered IN EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER YOU HAVE TO FOR OTHER FANTASY AND MOVIES THREADS which is managed quite easily. If you want to create a thread where spoilers don't apply then put in the title SPOILERS UP TO RotCG or whatever and people will know. This is dead simple.

In all honesty, I'm not 100% it'll work as an idea, but we need a more accesible area for people to start in, we can not be responsible if people don't take the time to read the advice we will post or the rules and spoiler themselves.

I think "why it is causing [us] such issues" is that there's very, very, very little in this idea of a general forum that won't have to be 95% spoiler-boxed. Who has the best swords? Every duel we talk about from Rake-vs-Hounds onwards has to be spoiler-boxed. What is your fave book and why? Just saying that DG is your fave because [character_name] has such a great [event] with [blank] is a spoiler.

The only thing that won't be spoilerific is the meet-up threads and member introductions. Even talking about the authros' influences will lead to spoilers for some books.

Now all of that is not necessarily bad, but it *is* a bad idea of this general forum is also supposed to be where we're welcoming new members and where they're going first, because it will either ruin a lot for them as they give into temptation, or else they will have steely self-restraint but the general forum will be useless to them and they won't dare tread within it for fear of being massively spoilered. And thus the forum where they're supposed to be welcomed they'll be afraid to even read, let alone post in.

[Cougar]

D, on 08 December 2009 - 09:27 PM, said:

Now all of that is not necessarily bad, but it *is* a bad idea of this general forum is also supposed to be where we're welcoming new members and where they're going first, because it will either ruin a lot for them as they give into temptation,

Protecting people from their own urges is not our job, this would also be an argument for not having any discussion of any of the books at all.

Quote

or else they will have steely self-restraint but the general forum will be useless to them and they won't dare tread within it for fear of being massively spoilered.

Or everyone else could just do what they are asked and spoiler in titles and we won't have a problem.

Quote

And thus the forum where they're supposed to be welcomed they'll be afraid to even read, let alone post in.

Well the hello forum is a subforum so that isn't really relevant is it, it doesn't have to be busy it just has to be a place people can come and get to grips, ask questions like "how do I do or where can I find" etc. It's a general forum, not a general book discussion.

The only arguments I'm seeing are that people won't be able to control themselves, people won't read stuff properly and spoiler themselves or that people will make errors, all of which are currently true for all the forums we use now.

[Abyss]

Cougar, on 08 December 2009 - 09:18 PM, said:

...Anything can be discussed, but anything that is a spoiler is spoilered IN EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER YOU HAVE TO FOR OTHER FANTASY AND MOVIES THREADS which is managed quite easily. If you want to create a thread where spoilers don't apply then put in the title SPOILERS UP TO RotCG or whatever and people will know. This is dead simple.

In all honesty, I'm not 100% it'll work as an idea,...

And therein lies the rub. It works in the OtherLit forums because people are generally well behaved, it's an aside to the main raison d'etre of the forum and mods can generally do damage control. The possibilities for spoilage are limited. I'm adding 'SPOILERS' into thread titles all the time over there.

I don't know how many people have had a major event in a later MBF book spoiled by a careless post, but let me say, as someone it's happened to, it sucks, and as someone who, in error, has been responsible for it , i felt pretty bad about it.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what's being proposed is a single forum positively loaded with big heaping blobs of spoilers, and we're telling new people 'START HERE'???


I see a flaw. I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, but i see a flaw.

- Abyss, above the flaw.

[caladanbrood]

It strikes me that if the idea is to get more people posting and feeling welcome, loading up a new general forum with spoilers so they might accidentally read something important (with new forum members who aren't immediately up-to-speed with the usual methods, this might well happen) would not be the way to go about it, especially if the response from the board, or at least from moderators is something along the lines of "well that was stupid of you, wasn't it."

So basically what 'byss said, but with less elocution.

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 08 December 2009 - 11:16 PM

[Hetan]

Hmm.. Looks like everyone is confused over what they want/what would work.

The problem with trying to please everyone in a community like this is there is always going to be a new member or someone who hasn't read all the books and could be spoilered. Yes I know spoiler tags could be used but people forget and even if they don't it's a Pandora's box, "don't push the button!" scenario.

The only good place for a "General Books" subforum would be in the latest book forum in my opinion. That way everyone will know there will be spoilers.

Braven Tooth's Recruitment Ground can handle anything else that new members may ask.

[HoosierDaddy]

If the "New Members" forum is going to be towards the top, I think it'll receive a fair bit of attention. Especially if it is populated quickly with general basic help for forum usage. As long as it's clearly delineated as the place to go to figure out how best to use the site, I think it'll work well in that function.

Plus, it'll be nice to just be able to direct them to the New Members forum as opposed to provide every individual help each time they spoil a thread or forum, and have to ask how to un-spoiler it.

[Illuyankas]

Sticking a box with the acronym of the book title the OP's discussing things from in the thread title might be useful - for example, "[HOC] I heard Karsa's cock made the earth move for Burn when it slipped from under his loincloth, Confirm/Deny" for Cougar's thread. It'll be a fairly straightforward sign of which books people are discussing up to. You'd still have to be careful when making the title but that's nothing new.

[Tsundoku]

Abyss, on 08 December 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

I recognize that we're trying to open the accessibility and it's all good but take this to the (il)logical end and about a year or three from now we would need... by non-exhaustive example... and only in respect of the books:One general all books NO spoilers UBER anything goes subforum;One general all books spoilers allowed UBER anything goes subforum;One general MBF-specific NO spoilers subforum;One general MBF-specific spoilers allowed subforum;Ten book specific MBF subforums;One general B&KB Novella subforum (spoilers? no spoilers???);Four specific Novella subforums;One general ICE/Malazan Empire series NO spoilers subforum;One general ICE/ME series spoilers allowed subforum;Three (eventually more) book specific ICE/ME subforums;One general Anomander Rake trilogy NO spoilers subforum;One general Anomander Rake trilogy spoilers allowed subforum;One (eventually three) Anomander Rake trilogy book specific subforum...and so on and so on and so on......see where this is going? eventually we need series-fora and book fora and no spoiler form and fora gods' sakes enuf is enuf. (heehee see what i did there? ), to say nothing of trying to decipher which spoilers are okay where... rather than making this easier on new arrivals we're going to send them screaming in horror back to Dragonmount or wherever .The books are written in an order. Don't want to read them in order? Fine, but we're not required to protect anyone's future enjoyment just because they take a lazy approach to the concept of time. Darth Vader is Luke's father. If someone missed that little fact because they skipped directly to The Phantom Menace knowing there were three movies already made that's not my problem (that's not an invitation to a debate about Star Wars actually being part 4... i'm on a roll, shut up and let me finish).I suggest ONE general, anything goes, spoilers allowed, any book, any time uber forum.I also suggest we preserve the approach that any earlier book (by ICE, SE, or thier illlegally made mash-up clones the existance of which i deny and further deny any involvement with) is spoilers open in any more recent book, because not being able to discuss RCG in the TtH subforum is just silly when the books overlap and both have been widely available for a year or more.

Centzon Totochtin, on 08 December 2009 - 06:10 AM, said:

...people just need to write DoD spoiler ot Midnight Tides spoiler so people know if they can read it or not

...and i think we can make THAT reasonably clear without terrifying anyone.- Abyss, liked it better in the olde days when everyone had to obscure spoilers with smoke signals...

Cougar, on 08 December 2009 - 09:18 PM, said:

Abyss I've given examples before, I'm not writing the same thing out again, lazy moggy.I do not know why it is causing you guys such issues. You have a general forum, it covers, the more frivolous elements ofcharacter discussion, who has the best swords, what is your fave book and why. It has community news (so meet ups BBQs etc) and maybe some stuff like the Naina thread etc that doesn't want to be in the inn cos it gets mocked, but isn't a book discussion thread.Anything can be discussed, but anything that is a spoiler is spoilered IN EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER YOU HAVE TO FOR OTHER FANTASY AND MOVIES THREADS which is managed quite easily. If you want to create a thread where spoilers don't apply then put in the title SPOILERS UP TO RotCG or whatever and people will know. This is dead simple.In all honesty, I'm not 100% it'll work as an idea, but we need a more accesible area for people to start in, we can not be responsible if people don't take the time to read the advice we will post or the rules and spoiler themselves.

In a weird way I'm agreeing with elements from both the cats above. Yes yes wonders never cease etc etc etc.

Everyone who makes their way to this forum is ostensibly a fan, right? I'm not including trolls, who come here with their own agenda and cannot be affected by anything decided here.

We can also safely assume they are an adult and/or reasonably intelligent and able to read English?

I believe we leave the format roughly as it is - separate and highly distinct sections with the novels and related discussion being the lion's share, and the Rest, being off topic stuff. This format works everywhere else, so why mess with a winning formula? Has anyone found a fan forum format (oooh, alliteration!) that works better?

I say we treat people as intelligent and/or adults. Don't adopt a nanny state situation of affairs. I already resent the fact my government assumes I am as stupid as the (regrettably large) percentage of the population that watches "Idol", I don't want to be treated the same way in my favourite online oasis of relative sanity, intelligence and calm. carefully note I said "relative".

Don't we send confirmation emails with links when people register? How about adding a message to that email along the lines of "OK you may or may not know it's a series of books, plus novellas and other novels in the same shared world by this other bloke (ICE), and it has been going for a while. The book forums (fora?) are divided into the order in which the books have been released, and the extra novels and novellas have their own subforum(s).
If you do not like spoilers, we here at malazanempire.com suggest and support your right to avoid the heck out of the subforums (subfora?) of the books you have not read. If you are OK with spoilers then fill your boots, strap your helmet on and go your hardest.
There is also an off-topic section where we would appreciate it if you didn't drop spoilers all over the place, because, well ... it's an off-topic forum. However, if you DO feel the need to make a post that simply CANNOT work without a possible spoiler reference, use the spoiler tags (somebody with a better ability to describe their use feel free)."

Or something along those lines anyway. Maybe the activation link in this email can send them straight to Braven Tooths, wherein lies the Introduce Yourself thread plus Rules and so on.

Is it so difficult a concept? Can somebody please explain to me if this is just too unwieldy to code, or just yet another one of my stupid ideas?

We generally don't have people here who need to be treated as kids, so why go to any extra effort that may be counter-productive? Treat visitors/possible recruits to this site as adults and they may pleasantly surprise you.

I think any negative press possibly stems from perceptions of elitism and snarkiness, not so much anything actually structural in basis.

Just my 2 Aussie pesos. Negrep away.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 09 December 2009 - 09:41 AM

[Cougar]

The only problem with the not having a general forum is that it still leaves the phoneix as the centre of the forum and unless we get away from that then we'll continue to put people off. I'm sorry guys but it's a fact that's a plain as can be. People check in, look at the Phoenix cos it's so busy and think 'I don't want to discuss what's messing with my groove, or whine about my girlfriend, I don't want to look at 4chan lite or play at running an imaginary pub' and leave. The recruitment centre is a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem.

I'll outline this for you as an example.

Mal wanted to create a thread about someone who had a Malazan blog, he couldn't put it in a book discussion so he had to put it in the Inn, he expressed reservations about this because he felt that it would just have the piss taken out of it, which would make our membership look like dicks. He was right, I had to delete a series of posts that bordered on racism or at least lazy stereotyping and there were several that mocked someone for the termerity of actually liking the books and blogging about it. Then Mal kicked off and there was a lot of whining with various levels of fallout. Now the problem here was that there was nowhere to post it where it wouldn't be ripped on, and consider this, if that is the reception a post from the forum owner gets, what message does that send to anyone who wants to come on the forum cos they love Malazan, rather than Lolcats, the ORLY? owl and whatever other early noughties memes we are recycling to death this week.

I really like the Inn, it's a top laugh, but it's totally at odds with any forum structure I can think off besides fudging 4chan, for a fan forum to have the de facto main forum as an anything goes off topic packed with exclusionary in (should that be Inn?) jokes etc is totally counter productive as it hardly eases people into the place. I'm not saying that there is anything malicious, but there are cliques and friendship groups in there. I'll not name names but in one of the cliquiest areas (very welcoming to newcomers but that's not the point, a clique is still off-putting) I noticed someone discussing another members first post in another forum. WTF? They can still read it, it's like the popular kids whispering about someone just loud enough for them to hear.

[Mezla PigDog]

Sombra, on 09 December 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

I think any negative press possibly stems from perceptions of elitism and snarkiness, not so much anything actually structural in basis.

Just my 2 Aussie pesos. Negrep away.

What I believe the mods are trying to do here is keep the current users happy yet also work out ways to encourage new members to come and then stay so that this website can grow and be self-sufficient. That means the perception of elitism has to go, as much as we elitists may like it. A general area that isn't as caustic as the Inn will encourage some members to stay who have nowhere to chat when the book forum is quiet. The Inn isn't suitable enough for this. For starters it is not particularly appealing to female members of the community as evidenced by the fact you can count regular female posters on a cyber-geeks spare hand. It's like a boys bedroom. No female really wants to go in there without the e-equivalent of a HazMat suit.

[Cougar]

Being a massive chauvanist I'd forgotten about the girls. I commented that at the book signing there was at least 35-40% women yet our membership, especially active members are almost all male., the past has shown us that the overwhelming majority fit in by flirting/being smutty with the boys, which is just further evidence of what a boys club we really are.