[wolf_2099]

Jusentantaka, on 27 November 2009 - 08:51 PM, said:

wolf_2099, on 27 November 2009 - 08:02 PM, said:

How is ramming your finger into someones eyes a pressure point or what not?

That's just a dirty, painful move, and one of the 2 things they tell girls to do if they can't run away from an attacker. The second is obvious.

Lizzie is a bit over stating what you'd do with your finger, but a quick jab to the eye is fucking PAINFUL. I wouldn't go so far as to gouge out an eye or nothing, considering all the nasty bloodborne shit which can be found in eye juice, but its definitely a pressure point in the broader sense, and one that will work on anyone short of a CIPA patient cause the ocular nerve doesn't deaden like others under various drugs. If you're going to call it dirty and painful, then what is kneeing someone in the face? Dirty and painful, but acceptable?

Depends what sport. In Muay Thai kneeing someone in the face is expected. Low blows, eye gouging, are both pretty dirty. Both are meant to do nothing but cause a lot of pain, and doesn't really have any finesse. Both are acceptable is someone is randomly attacking you, though. In a sanctioned fight though, really, really dirty.

Yes, I realize that was an awful argument, but couldn't figure out how to articulate it better. Any help?


Oh! Idea for a second conversation!

How many of you guys if in a bar fight, or attacked on the street, some mouthy guy at a party or wherever, would fight dirty?

If some guy attacked me, I'd pull out every dirty, cheap move I could possibly think of. I see no point in going easy on a guy who wants to hurt me, I'd rather end it as soon as possible, and be known as a dirty fighter, than loose and risk getting hurt.

Plus, people get nervous around dirty fighters.

This post has been edited by wolf_2099: 27 November 2009 - 10:35 PM

[Jusentantaka]

wolf_2099, on 27 November 2009 - 10:27 PM, said:

Depends what sport. In Muay Thai kneeing someone in the face is expected. Low blows, eye gouging, are both pretty dirty. Both are meant to do nothing but cause a lot of pain, and doesn't really have any finesse. Both are acceptable is someone is randomly attacking you, though. In a sanctioned fight though, really, really dirty.

Yes, I realize that was an awful argument, but couldn't figure out how to articulate it better. Any help?

well, its hardly an accepted move for sparring or something. But martial arts aren't just for winning a sparring match. I dont think that argument really can be articulated at all unless you live in some rainy, assend of the ocean country where self defense that inflicts pain on the person who attacked you is some sort of crime.

wolf_2099, on 27 November 2009 - 10:27 PM, said:

Oh! Idea for a second conversation!

How many of you guys if in a bar fight, or attacked on the street, some mouthy guy at a party or wherever, would fight dirty?

If some guy attacked me, I'd pull out every dirty, cheap move I could possibly think of. I see no point in going easy on a guy who wants to hurt me, I'd rather end it as soon as possible, and be known as a dirty fighter, than loose and risk getting hurt.

Plus, people get nervous around dirty fighters.

Only fight I've ever been forced to get involved in, a guy swung a beer bottle at my head and I dislocated his arm (Kali=useful in a bar fight, that guy linked before was talking out of his ass). And then kneed him in the crotch. Guess that is dirty. But I'm not getting some skanky miller bottle glass imbedded in my body just to play nice. (To be compltely honest, I THOROUGHLY enjoyed causing him immense harm, cause he was some kinda spindly, douchefag acting white trashy cauliflower) No contest to me. Fair is for sparring, short of doing something that's gonna get blood sprayed on me, anything goes in a real fight.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 27 November 2009 - 11:12 PM

[Binder of Demons]

I think you need to make the distinction between a sport and specifically self-defense. In self defense I don't think there are any dirty moves (if it is your only way of defending yourself). But many of those dirty tactics are massive overkill for most situations, which is where training comes in really handy, so you can potentially incapacitate someone without doing major damage (or preferably dissuade them or others from trying anything again).

I have been very fortunate in that i have never had to actually punch someone despite being attacked a couple of times. Since i had no training the first time, i just went to end things as fast as possible and took out his knee and then pinned him face down on the ground until help came. But I was really lucky to have not damaged his knee and drawn any legal woes upon myself. I will walk away from pretty much anything though, unless you are genuinely threatening my life or that of any of my loved ones.

To that end, i've even done security work here in a student pub for a year and found that most situations can be ended peacefully (or through the quick application of a wrist-lock ). A well applied technique and the right attitude will prevent a lot of follow up trouble. Despite being the smallest guard there (I'm 5'7" if i stand up very straight ), I might have been the only one there that was never punched, or had to punch anyone.

In a street fight though, if you couldn't walk away in the first place, aim to immobilise quickly, by any means, and then run. You can't risk there being concealed weapons involved, or being hit from behind by another assailant.

[amphibian]

Jusentantaka, on 27 November 2009 - 08:51 PM, said:

Lizzie is a bit over stating what you'd do with your finger, but a quick jab to the eye is fucking PAINFUL. I wouldn't go so far as to gouge out an eye or nothing, considering all the nasty bloodborne shit which can be found in eye juice, but its definitely a pressure point in the broader sense, and one that will work on anyone short of a CIPA patient cause the ocular nerve doesn't deaden like others under various drugs. If you're going to call it dirty and painful, then what is kneeing someone in the face? Dirty and painful, but acceptable?

The eye is a very small target and it is encased in an often moving and protected hard case. I'd decline the poking at someone's head when I could be throwing punches or clinching.

Judo is great - in my opinion, not as effective as other arts for the rather vague situation laid out here. It hurts too. Very fun though. I'll work my way to it after Muay Thai and wrestling/boxing.

And most people do not know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick.

[Jusentantaka]

amphibian, on 28 November 2009 - 02:40 AM, said:

The eye is a very small target and it is encased in an often moving and protected hard case. I'd decline the poking at someone's head when I could be throwing punches or clinching.

Judo is great - in my opinion, not as effective as other arts for the rather vague situation laid out here. It hurts too. Very fun though. I'll work my way to it after Muay Thai and wrestling/boxing.

And most people do not know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick.

Kinda stands to reason that the same people who don't know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick also don't know how to move to avoid a blow either.

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

amphibian, on 28 November 2009 - 02:40 AM, said:

Jusentantaka, on 27 November 2009 - 08:51 PM, said:

Lizzie is a bit over stating what you'd do with your finger, but a quick jab to the eye is fucking PAINFUL. I wouldn't go so far as to gouge out an eye or nothing, considering all the nasty bloodborne shit which can be found in eye juice, but its definitely a pressure point in the broader sense, and one that will work on anyone short of a CIPA patient cause the ocular nerve doesn't deaden like others under various drugs. If you're going to call it dirty and painful, then what is kneeing someone in the face? Dirty and painful, but acceptable?

The eye is a very small target and it is encased in an often moving and protected hard case. I'd decline the poking at someone's head when I could be throwing punches or clinching.

Judo is great - in my opinion, not as effective as other arts for the rather vague situation laid out here. It hurts too. Very fun though. I'll work my way to it after Muay Thai and wrestling/boxing.

And most people do not know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick.

Great thread here, enjoying reading other peoples opinions on this.

I've studied Judo for 16 years now, not the sports crap you see on tv in the Olympics, the proper traditional Judo that's basically Ju Jitsu with all the nasty shit taken out. It's great for being able to put someone on their back, but i wouldn't use it past there on the street. Put the boot in then move on.

I'm a great fan of Wing Chun too, been studying that for 8 years. Perfect art for learning to avoid a punch or kick. The problem is that when things kick off all your technique goes out the window. There's nothing like that first dump of adrenaline to make you forget everything you know :-)

[wolf_2099]

amphibian, on 28 November 2009 - 02:40 AM, said:

And most people do not know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick.

Most people when throwing a punch would break their hand if it was bare knuckle with any amount of force. Twist that damn arm! It is fairly easy to learn though.

Learning a basic, effective kick, a roundhouse say though, is fairly hard, as it requires a fair amount of flexibility and balance to properly do it, and for most people I see in Muay Thai and kick boxing, it takes them a long time to get the proper hip flexibility and snap to throw a good, solid, kick.

Learning to dodge, block, or take one of those hits is an entirely different ball game. You just need to get hit, a lot. (It's more complicated than that, but it's where to start.)

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Quote

And most people do not know how to throw a basic, effective punch or kick.

Are you sure?

Ask someone who works at Accident and Emergency. Hospitals are full to bursting of people who have been punched and kicked the fuck out of by people outside bars all over Britain. I'm sure not all of those people are trained in martial arts. A basic motor mechanism young children use are punches and kicks against one another - they might not Kiai, they might not use the prominant knuckles, or put their hips into it, but a bloody nose or a black eye still hurts. When I was at school the boys were always bashing the shit out of each other, and not an ounce of training between them.

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 28 November 2009 - 10:23 PM, said:

Ask someone who works at Accident and Emergency. Hospitals are full to bursting of people who have been punched and kicked by people outside bars all over Britain.

Enthusiasm and vigor will get some results, but there are a ton of people in the ERs with broken hands and other related injuries from bashing heads with sloppy/dangerous punches.

Quote

I'm sure not all of those people are trained in martial arts. A basic motor mechanism young children use are punches and kicks against one another - they might not Kiai, they might not use the prominant knuckles, or put their hips into it, but a bloody nose or a black eye still hurts. When I was at school the boys were always bashing the shit out of each other, and not an ounce of training between them.

Disclaimer: These are my observations and thoughts.

Violence isn't a cure-all, but it does solve some problems. As children, we sort of discover its power and through trial and error we learn when to employ it. While we go through that process, we're prone to aping the movements that we've seen in TV shows, movies, read about in books and have seen other people punch or kick in real life. As a result, most people sort of know the general idea, but don't actually know how to do it in a way that lessens the significant risk of injury to themselves. Heads are hard. It hurts to hit them. There will be less pain and less risk of injury for the attacker if technique is learned and refined and the strikes will damage the attacked more too.

A surprisingly high percentage of the people put in the emergency room by fighting were sneak attacked, ganged up on, attacked with weapons or any combination of the above. Those are ways we get around the risk of injury inherent in one on one combat - "fair" is something that rightly goes out the window in those situations. Many of those fighting are in less than optimal states of mind due to alcohol/drugs/whatever. The ER cases are kind of a weird testament to the human body's ability to inflict damage when motivated. I'd argue that many cases are in there because of the weaker, less effective strikes - because more of those need to be applied and with such ferocity, the person being beaten takes more accumulated damage than fewer solid blows would cause.

Once you get punched by a boxer or kicked by a Thai boxer, you start seeing and feeling how much more damage can be caused with even less risk of injury by those sufficiently trained. Hopefully, you'll have pads on when that happens.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 28 November 2009 - 11:52 PM

[wolf_2099]

To get amphibians point across.

New guy in kickboxing class has no control, kicks someone in the leg, with no pad, and it hurts for a while, no bruise.

I do a low kick to the leg of the new guy with a large square pad on his leg, and I knock the guy over, maybe leave a bruise.

Instructor kicks me (who can take a hit, kind of) with the same large square pad, as hard as he can. I have a big ass bruise, and am limping for 2 days.

Take away the pads, you're looking at broken legs for most people.

[Valgard]

In this discussion I don't think there is one be all and end all martial art for self defense as people are different what will work for some people won't for others. I trained for 8 years in a style of Ju-jitsu in the UK. In this style we focused on locks and throws mostly. You would be suprised how easy it is to get a lock on a wrist after having practised it seveal hundred times. We were taught basic punches and kicks in the style but I will never claim to be any good compared to a martial art that practises at them more regularily. Kicks and punches are great for ending fight early, but don't forget a lot of fights happen after a few drinks have been had in the pub, it makes everything a lot harder. Otherwise I think I will agree with however said above that the best self defense is the ability to run fast to avoid the fight in the first place. Also I agree that you need to be able to take a hit in case but better is not being hit at all.

One thing noone has mentioned is any defense against an armed attacker obviously if it is a mugger then give them what they want the money isn't worth dying over. Otherwise I wouldn't want to try and punch kick or grapple a man with a knife that is just asking you to lose body parts or be stabbed repeatedly, unless you are amazingly good at any of the above techniques. For this wrist and arm locks are possibly better as it keeps you in control of the knife and keeps it away from you all good.

[Jusentantaka]

Valgard, on 03 December 2009 - 09:16 AM, said:

One thing noone has mentioned is any defense against an armed attacker obviously if it is a mugger then give them what they want the money isn't worth dying over. Otherwise I wouldn't want to try and punch kick or grapple a man with a knife that is just asking you to lose body parts or be stabbed repeatedly, unless you are amazingly good at any of the above techniques. For this wrist and arm locks are possibly better as it keeps you in control of the knife and keeps it away from you all good.

Thing is though, people who tend to whip out a knife don't know fuck all about using one. Not to say you can ignore it, but I wouldn't say that you have to be 'amazingly good' to defend yourself. Of course, it also depends on the situation you're in.

[Valgard]

This is not true even if they have no idea how to use it if you don't know how to defend yourself properly then you will get stabbed and cut all over. Even if you do know what you are doing expect to get cut trying to take the knife off him. We tried this with red pens in one sessions to simulate knives and the amount of red marks we had on our arms was not good this went all the way up the grades. Only the people that had been training for a long time were able to to avoid the majority of cuts. It is harder than you'd think to deal with a knife even if they don't know what they are doing.

[Pig Iron]

Shallow cuts aren't necessarily that bad, I've seen quite a lot of those. You need some stitching up and it looks ugly. On the other hand, a very small penetrating wound to the thorax or the abdomen can kill fast. Knives are really scary. When not "opportunistically" used (grabbing a knife in the kitchen in a drunken fight) they seem to be most often covertly employed, the attacker holds the knife concealed and stabs from that or from behind or the side on someone already in a fight.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 05 December 2009 - 07:26 AM

[wolf_2099]

Jusentantaka, on 03 December 2009 - 04:14 PM, said:

Valgard, on 03 December 2009 - 09:16 AM, said:

One thing noone has mentioned is any defense against an armed attacker obviously if it is a mugger then give them what they want the money isn't worth dying over. Otherwise I wouldn't want to try and punch kick or grapple a man with a knife that is just asking you to lose body parts or be stabbed repeatedly, unless you are amazingly good at any of the above techniques. For this wrist and arm locks are possibly better as it keeps you in control of the knife and keeps it away from you all good.

Thing is though, people who tend to whip out a knife don't know fuck all about using one. Not to say you can ignore it, but I wouldn't say that you have to be 'amazingly good' to defend yourself. Of course, it also depends on the situation you're in.

I've been robbed at gun point. Someone pulls a knife or gun on you, you give them whatever you want. Nothing you have on your person is worth it. A weapon is a weapon, even if they don't know how to use it properly. They just need one decent shot and you're dead.

If you're talking about a home invader, or rapist or some other person, I'd suggest drop it, as nothing good ever comes from those conversation. It's all well, I'd do this, and this and this, and unless you've been there, What's the point?

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Id say any outcome from being held up by a knifeman or gunman when you come out the other end alive is a good one. As said, giving up your possessions, or even taking a cut, is far preferable to getting killed.

Ive seen guys stabbed with a knife, and it aint pretty, but those guys didnt have the chance to give up their wallet and shit, the guy was a nutcase. One man ended up with a cut throat, another had his face slashed to ribbons, severing his nerves and half paralysing his face, and a third (my brother) had his face cut open to the teeth. Would martial arts training have helped them disarm him? Who knows, because its hard to train for situations such as this, but it certainly wouldnt hurt.

Generally if someone fucks around with a knife and makes a lot of threats, he isnt prepared to use it... those guys who have violence in mind, just go right ahead and start cutting.

Also, i want to change my vote. I forgot all about the five point palm exploding heart technique

[Binder of Demons]

wolf_2099, on 05 December 2009 - 07:40 AM, said:

I've been robbed at gun point. Someone pulls a knife or gun on you, you give them whatever you want. Nothing you have on your person is worth it. A weapon is a weapon, even if they don't know how to use it properly. They just need one decent shot and you're dead.

If you're talking about a home invader, or rapist or some other person, I'd suggest drop it, as nothing good ever comes from those conversation. It's all well, I'd do this, and this and this, and unless you've been there, What's the point?

Wow, Wolf, sorry to hear you had that kind of run-in. Glad you obviously walked away from it.

I agree with you that there's rarely anything valuable that comes out of a hypothetical discussion on situations like those described above. And given my limited skills when it comes to martial arts, I'm certainly not going to claim I'd do anything fancy.

However, it's strange for me, in that I know i'd be scared witless if faced with a gun (since you'd have been hard pressed to come into contact with a handgun in Ireland when i was still living there, since i didn't live in Limerick, or up North). And I'd likely be pretty scared too if confronted with a straight-up unarmed fight. But, when i was actually training regularly (which is over 5 years ago now) I know i didn't have the same level of fear of being confronted by an attacker with a knife, or certainly with a bottle or bat (i was studying aikido, and tried to get along to kendo whenever i could). I'd be scared no doubt, but those were the types of attacks we defended against repeatedly in sparring, and often their lines of attack were quite predictable. Plus it helped that kote-gaeshi (wrist-control) was by far and away my best technique. Now that i have been away from sparring for so long, I wouldn't have anything like that confidence anymore. Probably a good thing.

I guess it's true what they say, a little confidence is a dangerous thing!

I agree though, that the most sensible course of action is to do your best to avoid any confrontation, and failing that prevent it from escalating to physical violence.

[Battalion]

I've never had any training in any martial art whatsoever, but that hasn't stopped me from knocking more people on their backs than I can count. Why? Because I'm so hard.

[wolf_2099]

Binder of Demons, on 05 December 2009 - 10:31 AM, said:

However, it's strange for me, in that I know i'd be scared witless if faced with a gun (since you'd have been hard pressed to come into contact with a handgun in Ireland when i was still living there, since i didn't live in Limerick, or up North). And I'd likely be pretty scared too if confronted with a straight-up unarmed fight. But, when i was actually training regularly (which is over 5 years ago now) I know i didn't have the same level of fear of being confronted by an attacker with a knife, or certainly with a bottle or bat (i was studying aikido, and tried to get along to kendo whenever i could). I'd be scared no doubt, but those were the types of attacks we defended against repeatedly in sparring, and often their lines of attack were quite predictable. Plus it helped that kote-gaeshi (wrist-control) was by far and away my best technique. Now that i have been away from sparring for so long, I wouldn't have anything like that confidence anymore. Probably a good thing.

I think the biggest distinction probably has to be whether someone pulled a weapon just to hurt you, or to steal from you. Obviously if they are doing it just to hurt you you're going to try your best to run away or fight back (in that order I hope), and the training can be a great thing.

Some gal in my teachers other class got attacked from behind in a movie store parking lot (in one of the busiest parts of town, sigh). She used one of the self defense techniques we trained, and spun around, grabbed his arms in the notch of one elbow, and using the other elbow, elbowed him in the nose, and broke it. The guy ran off. Most attackers are really surprised when someone actually fights back, it seems.

[Soulessdreamer]

wolf_2099, on 25 November 2009 - 07:52 PM, said:

mr butterson, on 25 November 2009 - 06:58 PM, said:

Personally id say western martial arts, not a strctly recognised one but been doin it for about 3 years and lovin it. mainly based upon medieval armamnet manuscripts (ie sword, mace, spear etc) but also do lots of hand to hand and bar brawlin.

This sounds ridiculous, cool, but ridiculous.

Do you actually fight other people with maces, spears and swords? Where would you even find a place that teaches that? it sounds more like LARPing.

Yes you actually fight with maces and such but blunted and with rounded points (mostly there are loons). Personally I've been in a 90 aside skirmish but some of the big american and european ones number in the thousands.

Some groups do culture based stuff Norse, Roman. My group is cuurently studing English weapons master George Silvers treatise Paradox's of Defense, alot of manuals only comming to llight with the openning of the vaticans vaults a few years ago.

Google WMA western martial arts or HEMA historical european martial arts.

The SCA or society for creative anachronisim sp? is an international group is creadited with being the largest privite army.

Then there are also re inactors and Living History who reinact battles (Hastings has about 20k people) or live the life. One mate of mine was on the pro circut in europe for awhile.

plenty of you tube vids to get an idea

TTFN