[Battalion]

How is it stupid? The clue is in the name. MIXED MATRIAL ARTS. That means it is a MIX of MARTIAL ARTS. So by definition, it is a MIX of more than one of the poll's MARTIAL ARTS.

If I said what is better to use in a fight, punching, kicking or headbutting, I ask the question because I want to know what is better. Saying: when I fight I use all three, doesn't answer the question that I asked.

So if you've got any more ridiculously stupids comments to make, feel free express yourself.

Also, if my post is the most ridiculouslt stupid comment you have seen in a long while, then I suggest you haven't been browsing the forums enough lately.

This post has been edited by Battalion: 26 November 2009 - 09:13 AM

[wolf_2099]

And kick boxing break into elements of punching and kicking, is it not a valid type of martial art, despite being a hybrid of 2 types of striking?
I get your point of it being a mixed martial art, but every fighting style takes elements of those before it, and shapes it into something new. MMA just doesn't have a fancy name, yet. It is still a style of training, and is the best one to use to get an all around ability to fight.

What I'm saying is none of them are better than the other. It's all situational and is impossible to answer what one is the best, so it is best to learn a bit of everything to cover all your bases if you want to fight.

If you really want to know the best skill to have in a fight, if you cannot run away? The ability to take a punch. (or hit of some kind.)

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I discounted MMA from the outset. So far as I can tell that art has been specifically designed to win a fight in the octogon. Try getting someone in an armbar in a street fight, and while you're breaking one person's arm, some other guy's stamping on your face and knocking all your teeth out. Same goes if you try to smother someone BJJ style, and trap them in a mount until an opening presents itself. Your back becomes a huge target. Fighting in the street, in a real life situation, can not be fought the same as when it's just you and another guy, with a ref watching.

Anything with a Do at the end (Tae Kwon Do, Hepkido, Judo - and by extension BJJ, which derives from Judo) has been developed as a sport. Japanese arts that finish with jitsu or jutsu are developed for the battle field, and so are in my opinion, more effective as a self defence.

Ultimately i went for ju jitsu. Would a ju jitsu expert win a fight in the UFC against a MMA fighter? Probably not. In a real fight, i would say yes. It incorperates grappling, striking, joint manipulation and throws, as well as nerve point and pressure point attacks, that will get you out of alot of those MMA clinches that get people tapping out.

[Gothos]

it may not be pretty, but Krav Maga strikes me as the most effective means of getting yourself to safety. I think I could even say it's less focused on actually fighting someone, and more on disabling the opponent as fast as possible using any means neccesary and flee. that's my vote anyway.


for coolness factor, tho, ninjitsu!

[Pig Iron]

The real life fights I've seen (very few) or heard reliable stories of have all been ended with boxing, knees from thai-clinch or chokes from BJJ. And then I'm not counting drunk guys rolling around inefficiently on the curb outside a pub. Anecdotal evidence, sure.

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 26 November 2009 - 11:40 AM, said:

I discounted MMA from the outset. So far as I can tell that art has been specifically designed to win a fight in the octogon. [...] Fighting in the street, in a real life situation, can not be fought the same as when it's just you and another guy, with a ref watching.

You seem to have this idea that MMA is purely ground work. It is not. Yes, being on the ground in a street fight is usually not a good place to be, but there is a strong emphasis in MMA, BJJ, wrestling etc. on developing a good sprawl (to avoid being taken down), getting back up to the feet or being on top. Again, the best self-defense is Not Fighting - whether it be by defusing the situation or running away. For winning a fight, MMA will put you in a better position to win than just about everything I can think of that doesn't involve having a ranged weapon.

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Anything with a Do at the end (Tae Kwon Do, Hepkido, Judo - and by extension BJJ, which derives from Judo) has been developed as a sport. Japanese arts that finish with jitsu or jutsu are developed for the battle field, and so are in my opinion, more effective as a self defence.

Using linguistics to create categories is really not a good way to have your opinion be accepted as valid. Focusing on which arts emphasize live sparring against a resisting opponent and a deemphasis on long chains of specific "forms" done against the empty air (coughtaekwondocough, ahem) would do you better.

I'm not arguing for the superiority of BJJ/grappling against everything else - and will even say if you're limiting it to single formal schools of martial arts, combat sambo is probably going to be the best. It has the most coverage of striking, throwing and grappling of a formal martial art thus far. However, MMA surpasses it in most areas and is becoming institutionalized in a manner that will likely lead towards it becoming a formal school in time.

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Ultimately i went for ju jitsu. Would a ju jitsu expert win a fight in the UFC against a MMA fighter? Probably not. In a real fight, i would say yes. It incorperates grappling, striking, joint manipulation and throws, as well as nerve point and pressure point attacks, that will get you out of alot of those MMA clinches that get people tapping out.

Small joint manipulation is both difficult to do and not usually a huge deal to the determined opponent. Attacks to nerves and pressure points is near useless in most situations. Most jujitsu schools do not teach those kinds of attacks either.

Getting out of a Thai Plum clinch via pressure point attacks is a good way to get kneed into oblivion.

[wolf_2099]

I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but how many of you guys commenting have ever trained and sparred in a martial art? I'm curious how much of this is first hand knowledge versus speculation/seeing it on TV.

[Cold Iron]

Kendo. Gimme a wooden sword and I'll beat your ass.

[wolf_2099]

Cold Iron, on 26 November 2009 - 08:36 PM, said:

Kendo. Gimme a wooden sword and I'll beat your ass.

What about a chair leg? Can you break a chair on someone then use the leftover leg to fight off the other attackers in style?

[Cold Iron]

Only if it's an ornate japanese high chair. :

[amphibian]

wolf_2099, on 26 November 2009 - 08:54 PM, said:

What about a chair leg? Can you break a chair on someone then use the leftover leg to fight off the other attackers in style?

It only counts if he does it with sufficient gravitas and proper technique.

The wiki says the actual term for that is a four syllable word with some really deep meaning about being one with the spirit, weapon and the body.

Here's the perspective of a guy who's been doing multiple forms of martial arts pretty much his entire life: Link is here. Here's his "CV" as y'all Europeans say: "BJJ, followed by muay Thai, followed by English boxing, goju-ryu karate, generic Korean taekwondo, hapkido, judo, American wrestling, kali, silat, and wing-chun. I have three black belts and one brown belt (which would have been black except that I missed the test). I don't claim to be an expert in any art but by dint of moderately extensive knowledge of at least BJJ (14 years, a lot of it in Rio de Janeiro with highly reputable instructors) and muay Thai (six to ten weeks per year for 16 years, in Thailand), I think I was able to grasp the essential aspects of even those styles that I had limited exposure to. Each has its merits. But in some cases the merits have nothing to do with self-defense."

[The Tyrant Lizard]

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Small joint manipulation is both difficult to do and not usually a huge deal to the determined opponent. Attacks to nerves and pressure points is near useless in most situations. Most jujitsu schools do not teach those kinds of attacks either.

Getting out of a Thai Plum clinch via pressure point attacks is a good way to get kneed into oblivion.

I'm affraid I disagree with you. Having a thumb knuckle-deep in someone's eye is not my idea of a useless technique - especailly not if you flick to eye out. These techniques rely on pain compliance, which - unless you're fighting someone who is immune to pain - should work. Simple things like biting tender parts of flesh give you the fragment of time or space you need to work a way out of a situation. Nerve and pressure point attacks do work, I've had them done on me.

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I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but how many of you guys commenting have ever trained and sparred in a martial art? I'm curious how much of this is first hand knowledge versus speculation/seeing it on TV.

I train in Ishin Ryu Ju Jitsu, my instructor is a guy called Kevin Pell Hanshi. check it out. I've been to martial arts seminars with fast track introductions to a variety of martial arts from all over the world. I found the most impressive was a Croatian dojo called Combat Jujitsu. These guys are useing their techniques erveryday in real life and death situations.

This post has been edited by The Tyrant Lizard: 27 November 2009 - 07:51 PM

[Sindriss]

Well, I think most are biased from what style they themselves are training. Of course, I voted karate since that is what I train. Actually taking the test for black belt in one week.

Anyway, it seems to be that the best martial art depends on the context. I mean, one on one, I would pick BJJ any day of the week. He will get in close with you, get you in the ground and dominate you. You could say that MMA also can do that, but I would say that someone who exclusively traines BJJ will be a lot better in this area than somebody who tries to train 4-5 different martial arts and then tries to combine it into a fighting routine.
Closed terrain like a bar, I would probably pick MMA, Muy thai or karate.

[Binder of Demons]

I've done Aikido on and off for years, since it's proven really hard to find a good dojo when moving around so much. Very frustrating as it's not really one you can practice on your own. But despite my love for it, it's not really one i'd put down as 'the most effective martial art' on a list like this. At least not until you are seriously skilled at it (which is way beyond me at present). And since you don't really learn striking in aikido, many students will often study another martial for kicks and punching techniques.
For example, my old instructor was previously a black belt in judo, and had been boxing for 20 years.

The Daitoryu Aiki Jujitsu, which was the precursor to Aikido, is more in keeping with the type of martial arts you are looking for. it was an old, and particularly brutal form of jujitsu, which often used dirty strikes and violent joint manipulation to end things quickly. The 'inventor' of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba, was a student of this form originally before becoming a pacifist, and modified the Daitoryu into what is now aikido. To that end, you can still actually make aikido a pretty brutal martial art if you show no concern for your opponent, but perhaps it's greatest strength is being able to deflect aggression very well and often prevent a situation from escalating to violence.

For general purpose self defense though, i would agree with several of the above posters in saying MMA. I now it's not strictly one of the traditional martial arts, but it is well on it's was to being recognised in it's own right. It gives you a good exposure to punching, kicking and ground attacks (as well as submissions/joint manipulation), and does so with the emphasis on sparring. The sparring really is the key. I've seen many people who can perform a kata perfectly, lose their composure completely when actually slapped in the head.

[Sindriss]

Yeah, but that is very different from the different dojos. By the way, you included karate as one art, but there are several different schools in it who practice very different things. I train in a Wado-ryu school, under Flemming Almtoft, a 5 dan master. As one of the few schools in Denmark, we actually train a lot of combat and at each graduation, it is not enough to know the different katas, renrakuwaza, ohyokumite or yakusoku kumite. After you have show these things, there is jiyokumite, which is combat without any breaks or pauses. However there is no contact to the head or groin (it is without gloves), otherwise you are free to knock somebody to the ground.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Actually I agree that many people will be biased according to what theyve trained in.

I think judo is a severely underrated art. Most people know how to throw basic punches and kicks, but the grappling and throwing learned in judo will stand someone in good stead in a fight against a pissed up mugger. Your average rear naked choke is more likely to knock someone out that your average right hander.

[wolf_2099]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 27 November 2009 - 11:57 AM, said:

Quote

Small joint manipulation is both difficult to do and not usually a huge deal to the determined opponent. Attacks to nerves and pressure points is near useless in most situations. Most jujitsu schools do not teach those kinds of attacks either.

Getting out of a Thai Plum clinch via pressure point attacks is a good way to get kneed into oblivion.

I'm affraid I disagree with you. Having a thumb knuckle-deep in someone's eye is not my idea of a useless technique - especailly not if you flick to eye out. These techniques rely on pain compliance, which - unless you're fighting someone who is immune to pain - should work. Simple things like biting tender parts of flesh give you the fragment of time or space you need to work a way out of a situation. Nerve and pressure point attacks do work, I've had them done on me.

How is ramming your finger into someones eyes a pressure point or what not?

That's just a dirty, painful move, and one of the 2 things they tell girls to do if they can't run away from an attacker. The second is obvious.

[wolf_2099]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 27 November 2009 - 07:56 PM, said:

Actually I agree that many people will be biased according to what theyve trained in.

I think judo is a severely underrated art. Most people know how to throw basic punches and kicks, but the grappling and throwing learned in judo will stand someone in good stead in a fight against a pissed up mugger. Your average rear naked choke is more likely to knock someone out that your average right hander.

I have a buddy I see a couple times a year who does Judo, I do Muay Thai. I am always impressed at how well he can take me down, but he still can't hold up against a lot of the leg strikes. BJJ however, gets me every time.

God it's fun to learn how to toss someone though.

[Jusentantaka]

wolf_2099, on 27 November 2009 - 08:02 PM, said:

How is ramming your finger into someones eyes a pressure point or what not?

That's just a dirty, painful move, and one of the 2 things they tell girls to do if they can't run away from an attacker. The second is obvious.

Lizzie is a bit over stating what you'd do with your finger, but a quick jab to the eye is fucking PAINFUL. I wouldn't go so far as to gouge out an eye or nothing, considering all the nasty bloodborne shit which can be found in eye juice, but its definitely a pressure point in the broader sense, and one that will work on anyone short of a CIPA patient cause the ocular nerve doesn't deaden like others under various drugs. If you're going to call it dirty and painful, then what is kneeing someone in the face? Dirty and painful, but acceptable?

[Abyss]

As a related aside to this otherwise interesting chat, does 'Ninjutsu' even belong on that list?
Ignore all the (awesome, cool) movies, and assume that ninja existed in any sense that reflects what we think we know, then to my limited understanding 'ninjutsu' is a way of killing people real quick without being seen in the first place, as opposed to the 'win a fight' point of a martial art, in the most general sense.

- Abyss, can kill insects with one finger.