[The Tyrant Lizard]

What do you think is the most effective martial art. I mean this in the sense of what martial arts were designed for (defending yourself from attack)... not for winning sports competitions.

I realise I have bracketed some together here. wrestling comes under many guises and many of the arts have numberous different styles, but the poll is only so big.

This post has been edited by The Tyrant Lizard: 25 November 2009 - 12:18 PM

[blackzoid]

Other.
Mixed Martial Arts, take the best from all of them.
If not unarmed then gun/knife/stick training. Kali for example.

[Jusentantaka]

Kalaripayatt, Kali or Kung Fu are all pretty dead even in my mind.

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 25 November 2009 - 12:17 PM, said:

I mean this in the sense of what martial arts were designed for (defending yourself from attack)

I was under the impression that the point of martial arts was to win a fight - regardless of what the reason behind being in a fight is. The best method of defending yourself is to not get into the fight in the first place. Or running away as quick as you can. So by your definition of the question, Not Fighting is the best martial art.

As far as winning fights, it's been conclusively proven that MMA dominates when fighting a resisting opponent. Even in a street fight, with no rules in effect, blending BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai and boxing is going to put the fighter in a better position to win than anything else out there. No-gi judo might help some, but the value of that decreases as you go up in weight - as does wrestling (gets progressively harder to move the opponent and effective sprawls become more commonplace). A big deal's been made of Machida's karate background, but he still does all the other arts - his big thing is using the shotokan-style spacing well.

Of the four main components of MMA, BJJ usually takes the longest to get good at - though all require extensive time, effort and training to master.

For the average person, just learn how to box proficiently. And always keep those running skills polished.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 November 2009 - 06:54 PM

[mr butterson]

Personally id say western martial arts, not a strctly recognised one but been doin it for about 3 years and lovin it. mainly based upon medieval armamnet manuscripts (ie sword, mace, spear etc) but also do lots of hand to hand and bar brawlin.

[wolf_2099]

Obviosuly it's going to be MMA, which utilizes all the martial arts into 1 fighting form.

However, whatever you think is best is purely subjective, like asking what your favorite color is. Especially if you're thinking of training one, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

Throw in the difference between a striking, wrestling, submission, or purely defensive martial art and it becomes impossible to tell.

Eg - Muay Thai is going be awesome if someone attacks you in a bar or on the street, as it's the strongest striking, but if you end up on the ground, you're shit out of luck. Then you need Jui Jitsu or wrestling or some sort, therefore MMA.

[wolf_2099]

mr butterson, on 25 November 2009 - 06:58 PM, said:

Personally id say western martial arts, not a strctly recognised one but been doin it for about 3 years and lovin it. mainly based upon medieval armamnet manuscripts (ie sword, mace, spear etc) but also do lots of hand to hand and bar brawlin.

This sounds ridiculous, cool, but ridiculous.

Do you actually fight other people with maces, spears and swords? Where would you even find a place that teaches that? it sounds more like LARPing.

[Jusentantaka]

amphibian, on 25 November 2009 - 06:54 PM, said:

As far as winning fights, it's been conclusively proven that MMA dominates when fighting a resisting opponent.

Not especially complaining, but do you have a source for that? The only stuff I've read makes it out like 'some guy who played football in high school and is a douche will get his ass beat hard by an MMA-trained guy' Or the beyond-retarded claims from 'I teach things that the US military doesn't want "you" to know' sites.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 25 November 2009 - 08:32 PM

[wolf_2099]

Jusentantaka, on 25 November 2009 - 08:32 PM, said:

amphibian, on 25 November 2009 - 06:54 PM, said:

As far as winning fights, it's been conclusively proven that MMA dominates when fighting a resisting opponent.

Not especially complaining, but do you have a source for that? The only stuff I've read makes it out like 'some guy who played football in high school and is a douche will get his ass beat hard by an MMA-trained guy' Or the beyond-retarded claims from 'I teach things that the US military doesn't want "you" to know' sites.

I don't have sources handy, but common sense would say it would win. See my last post for examples. I'll take a few minutes later today to try and find them.

No one martial art focuses on striking, submission, and grappling, so to cover every possible way a fight could go, you need a variety of disciplines, and as soon as 2 are used, it becomes MMA.

Side Note - Those douches who played football, and US Military crap guys generally don't know shit, and is funny to see them get their asses beat when they come to a class. They never come back afterwards.

[Jusentantaka]

Doesn't everyone get their ass beat the first time they show up for a martial arts class? I thought that was a sort of rite of passage - getting beat by the instructor to humble you.

a part of me is tempted to learn BJJ (so I'd learn some submission/grappling) when my hair grows back, but I'm a 130 pound woman, so being able to put someone in a coma or dead if necessary is a lot more useful than trying to make them cry like a bitch and quit being bitches. What do you think?

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 25 November 2009 - 09:11 PM

[wolf_2099]

Yeah, most people do get their butts whooped, not from the instructor though, a good instructor doesn't really beat their students. Mostly the beating though is from no being in any shape, and suffering through class. Anyone with an ounce of humility deals with it and moves on.


I do Muay Thai with a lot of women, so if you're worried about being a woman, don't be.

Would you be comfortable rolling with guys? Decent women only martial arts gyms don't really exist, and it's awesome to see a girl take down a 200 lbs guy. I might even know a gym, depending on where you are located.

[wolf_2099]

Also, any Gracie Barra gym is always a pretty safe bet for BJJ.

[Jusentantaka]

wolf_2099, on 25 November 2009 - 10:32 PM, said:

Would you be comfortable rolling with guys?

Only if they're hot.


I've done plenty of martial arts with men and women since I was 15ish (Kali and later Shaolin). Which is many more years ago than I will ever admit.

The reason women-only gyms don't exist is because women are fucking mean. We cheat and bite, claw, scratch and punch each other in the box. I'd say it's not pretty, but I'm sure someone is already rushing for an ice cold shower.

I'm around DC, if you know anywhere in particular within about 40-50 miles.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 25 November 2009 - 11:29 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

Jusentantaka, on 25 November 2009 - 11:28 PM, said:

The reason women-only gyms don't exist is because women are fucking mean. We cheat and bite, claw, scratch and punch each other in the box. I'd say it's not pretty, but I'm sure someone is already rushing for an ice cold shower.

you know, there's a lot of truth in that. I HATE sparring with women. at the first opportunity they tend to aim for the crotch. or scratch.

In fairness, I always tell them that when fighting men, the first thing they should do is go for the crotch (if only to trigger the instinctive flinch away that guys have so that you can then punch them in the face)

but still........

[amphibian]

Jusentantaka, on 25 November 2009 - 08:32 PM, said:

Not especially complaining, but do you have a source for that? The only stuff I've read makes it out like 'some guy who played football in high school and is a douche will get his ass beat hard by an MMA-trained guy' Or the beyond-retarded claims from 'I teach things that the US military doesn't want "you" to know' sites.

MMA, by virtue of its incorporation of several ground-based and striking-based arts, is a much more complete set of skills applicable to fighting. Combat sambo comes close, but seems to be largely some very dirty boxing, judo throws and the famous array of leglocks combined with some armlocks. Look at the world of professional mixed martial artists - there are exactly two elite level Sambo practicioners among the world's best MMA athletes (two brothers and one may never fight again [Aleks, due to possible hepatitis infection]).

I'm not saying that the average person who trains MMA will suddenly stomp an elite judoka/ninja/angry little Filipino with kali sticks, but I am confident in saying that the variety of skills it emphasizes will allow the person to fight in a manner where a significant advantage for that person can be gained and utilized against an opponent.

Right now, MMA isn't really a single martial art that's being taught. It's usually broken up into ground-based arts (BJJ/wrestling/ground striking) and striking-based arts (Muay Thai/boxing) and insane amounts of conditioning work. It is slowly being centralized and refined, partly due to the professional scene and partly due to people indeed picking and choosing what works best from other martial arts. The elite still go to individual experts in each art for training though, as they hunt for those refinements of technique and slight advantages.

Jusentantaka, on 25 November 2009 - 09:09 PM, said:

Doesn't everyone get their ass beat the first time they show up for a martial arts class? I thought that was a sort of rite of passage - getting beat by the instructor to humble you.

a part of me is tempted to learn BJJ (so I'd learn some submission/grappling) when my hair grows back, but I'm a 130 pound woman, so being able to put someone in a coma or dead if necessary is a lot more useful than trying to make them cry like a bitch and quit being bitches. What do you think?

Why would the instructor hand out beatdowns to new students? That makes no sense. They want new students to "stick".

The feeling of "butt whooping" generally comes from not being in shape for the new movements of the art and pace of the class, as well as some sparring with the students. A BJJ instructor, if rolling with a new student, will generally go easy on that student - gently sweeping, no painholds and the grappling is done somewhat with an eye towards showing the student what is possible if the years and effort is put in. Furthermore, the other students usually don't want to put each other out of commission. That'd shrink the pool of training partners and diminish enjoyment of the classes. Don't get me wrong though - they won't make it easy for a new student to win or even do much of anything resembling winning.

There's a 130 pound girl in my BJJ class. We roll pretty often and she's been improving consistently since her introduction about seven months ago. She loves the sport and shows up on MMA days often too. She tagged me in the face a bunch of times two Saturdays ago.

I don't know why people like Krav Maga so much. The more I learn and explore things, the more I seem to think it's a marketing triumph and not as useful as it claims. It's both surprisingly easy and surprisingly hard to "put someone in a coma or dead if necessary". A ranged weapon like a gun in the hands of a skilled user is near terrifying in its power to end lives, yet it takes a surprising amount of power and effort to make someone unconscious or dead using your own body. Krav Maga doesn't seem to actually be able to do the latter better than the various arts that make up MMA or even other arts.

A ton of BJJ moves can incapacitate or kill people. That's why they exist. Furthermore, the tap-out exists to stop things short of that.

[amphibian]

Jusentantaka, on 25 November 2009 - 11:28 PM, said:

Only if they're hot.

Chances are high there'll be a few attractive people in the BJJ clubs. The classes tend to weed out the not physically fit and the camaraderie is usually high. Muay Thai - maybe not so much because they're getting elbows and knees to the face - but they're tightly linked too.

Quote

I'm around DC, if you know anywhere in particular within about 40-50 miles.

There's Maguilla in Silver Springs, MD. He's my instructor's instructor. Vic is an amazing person even outside of the gym and always speaks highly of Maguilla.

Lloyd Irvin is a very famous instructor in Camp Springs, MD. He has had a hand in training many elite athletes, but will likely have a higher rate than Maguilla or the others.

There's probably a few Gracie schools in the area, as well as several Yamasaki schools in Maryland and Virginia.

[Jusentantaka]

I'll probably give them a try... sometime in the spring if I'm lucky, so long as I don't lose any more money in the market anyway. Thanks. I will be expecting various degrees of hawt though, and if I'm disappointed... well, I'll write a very irate forum post about it.


& I really didn't mean beat down like going to the hospital when you leave. Really.

There was some sort of question I was going to ask about something else and now its completely gone. Damned kids.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 26 November 2009 - 12:45 AM

[amphibian]

Jusentantaka, on 26 November 2009 - 12:37 AM, said:

I'll probably give them a try... sometime in the spring if I'm lucky, so long as I don't lose any more money in the market anyway. Thanks. I will be expecting various degrees of hawt though, and if I'm disappointed... well, I'll write a very irate forum post about it.


& I really didn't mean beat down like going to the hospital when you leave. Really.

There was some sort of question I was going to ask about something else and now its completely gone. Damned kids.

I forgot to mention that since you're near a big city, there will possibly be women-only classes or a good amount of girls your size or slightly smaller in the general classes. And most of those will be decently attractive to hot as well. Tournaments are ridiculous and I almost wish I was a single guy for the next few I'll do (this is a joke, for those of you who did meet M in Chicago).

I know what you meant, but how many people respond to immediate adversity all that well? Or little kids romping around the house being little kids? My instructor has an awesome story about his then-two year old son trying to armbar his judo instructor and Boogie's legs didn't even extend much past the guy's elbow. So funny. Boogie's now seven and will eventually surpass all us students in his knowledge.

[Battalion]

Being that the question is what is the most effective martial art, I think answering with M.M.A is a complete and utter cop out.

That's like me saying, what is your favorite planet, and you saying Earth, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Satern. They all bring their own strengths to the table, so I vote for all of them mixed together. Doesn't really answer the question.

On a side note, I thought that when U.F.C and other similar championships were born, there was far more excitement. When it all started it was one style of martial arts facing another -- like the movie Blood Sport -- rather than how they tend to be now, everybody using the same boring styles, rolling around on the floor for twenty minutes, grunting and such.

Knock outs are so much more spectacular than arm bars or rear naked choaks. And on that note, if you're a pussy, no amount of training in the world is going to stop you from getting knocked the fnck out when you take one on the chin.

[wolf_2099]

Battalion, on 26 November 2009 - 07:58 AM, said:

Being that the question is what is the most effective martial art, I think answering with M.M.A is a complete and utter cop out.

That's like me saying, what is your favorite planet, and you saying Earth, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Satern. They all bring their own strengths to the table, so I vote for all of them mixed together. Doesn't really answer the question.

That's the most ridiculously stupid comparison I have seen in a long while, it makes no sense.

M.M.A. is a type of training utilizing the strengths of various fighting styles, generally some sort of Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Jui Jitsu to form a well rounded fighting style. Sure, it's still fairly new now, but it won't long if it isn't already its type of martial art. It might not be traditional, but with so many MMA gyms everywhere, and it being the prevalent sport, how is it not an answer? If you wanted a specific type of fighting, grappling, submission, striking, wrestling or what not, then it can be a very different argument, but the type of training that encompasses all of them is going to win, every time.