[Hetan]

You can't protect someone from themself. I do agree that he was the wrong man for the job but he appeared to be all that Tavore had to work with for whatever reason. Felisin didn't like him for which I can't blame her as she watched him saw the head off the woman in the prologue which must have coloured her perception of the man, but it was a demonstration of what he was capable of and probably bought him some space to maneuver in. By the time they got to the mines her mind had already decided that she had one thing to trade in order to get some position of protection, as she thought, and she went off and did it.
Now it appears that the communication between her and Heboric and Baudin after that time was sporadic, in addition to which she was sleeping with Beneth and taking the drugs to escape. These facts would make it very difficult for either Heboric or Baudin, who were both being worked like mules and worse, to be able to trust her not to let on that they were planning an escape attempt and therefore she was not clued in. She was isolated. It is a shame, but I don't see that there was any other way for them to deal with it.
I don't believe that either Heboric or Baudin wanted it to be like that, it's just that circumstance took it away from them.

[ksh1elds555]

I finished HoC about a month ago so my memory isn't super clear on this. But I seem to remember that Felisin towards the end having more thoughts of regret about her single-minded purpose of revenge against Tavore. And how senseless it was that many people would be led to die because of it. That led me to think that Felisin's going to face Tavore in single combat was an effort to end her pain, while not getting other people killed. I could be totally way off on this, but that was the impression I had. Up til that point, I hadn't really liked Felisin as a person but I did admire Erikson's characterization of her. (I think there is a difference there.) But after Felisin decided to face Tavore alone, I admired her more for coming to deal with her pain and anger herself rather than having her army attack the Malazan forces. And I found her death and Tavore's apparent ignorance of the identity of Sha'ik very compelling and tragic. Very Oedipus Rex-like. I think Erikson is a master of making characters that evolve, and first impressions can be totally blown away by events in later books.

[Smoked Out Knuckle Sammy]

I think this is a fascinating thread. Felisin certainly deserves more consideration than many on here are apparently willing to offer. As a few writers have already mentioned, the youngest Paran's circumstances would have sorely tried even the strongest of peeps. I don't remember if her age is ever given at the time she first falls from her life of privilege (I've got the vague impression that she was in her early teens) - but she starts off young, naive and sheltered. From this vulnerable beginning, SE ruthlessly pulls her through one horrific scene after the next. it seems he is deliberately trying to make her situation so impossibly tragic in order to help the reader understand that anyone in this young girl's situation would be completely broken by the process. Further, she is utterly alone; parents dead, beloved brother missing and betrayed (she thinks) by the only remaining member of her family.

Felisin actually behaves rather heroically in the beginning. Her inner strength is impressive during the forced chain march in Unta. Most would understand if she had simply given up at that point. Later, her self-sacrifices save Heboric's life on several occasions - and he is little more than a stranger to her. It would seem that Heboric's experience as a child thief would have given him greater understanding for Felisin's actions in attempting to survive her captivity. Out of necessity, she used her only asset - and in doing so destroyed what little remained of her humanity. How can this not be tragic?

It doesn't seem fair to judge her harshly for failing to cooperate with her "rescue." Perhaps she should have been told earlier that there was a plan. Maybe that little bit of hope could have sustained her. She may have even been able to use her influence and comparative freedom to assist the effort. I would certainly forgive her for not thinking of looking to Baudin - a man that she had watched decapitate an innocent woman - for salvation. At the very least, Baudin was not much better than Beneth in her eyes. Heboric treated her kindly, but she probably viewed him as someone needing her help as opposed to a rescuer. Pella could have been more clear when he attempted to let her know something was in the works. Finally, it seems that Tavore could have done more than just send a former Talon to guard her sister. Skullcup was the kind of place where help should have been easily obtainable through graft. If there needs to be an apportionment of fault, Felisin doesn't deserve a large share.

Tavore, on the other hand needs a good defense attorney. Maybe the new book will develop her character more fully, but at this point she got some 'splainin to do. It seems like she gets a pass for her self-serving behavior. What was her rationale for enslaving her sister (and I believe having her mother killed)? It's kind of bs that she was attempting to save her "House" when she's the only member left. It's still not clear how she got the Adjunct position either. SE needs to rehabilitate her character. Or not.

[Studlock]

IMO this was a horrible mistake by Tavore who said in GotM

" 'Felisin? She's too soft for this world, brother. For any world, I think.' "

She knows that Felisin is to 'soft' for the world. What does she do? Send her to a slave mine with a assassin for company. This in it self seems idiotic. Would it have been impossible to have an accident along the way? Like half of the Old Guard. Surely it would be easy to hide a single teenager in a world as vast as Wu somewhere less horrible? The princess of Quon Tali did it for fuck sakes. Another thing is many people do not give Felisin enough credit. She was just betrayed by her sister, had her parents killed, saw many people killed right before her and other gruesome things. This would be hard for anyone, but think about from a perspective of a noble's daughter whose world view would have been extremely small. Of fucking course she damaged, of course she has trust issues. Now I am not blaming either Baudin or Heboric, both them did what they could in a situation where they couldn't be as much as the could have been. I am laying the blame squarely at Tavore feet which is hard for me seeing as I really enjoy the character later on. She, who knew her sister, who was surprisingly naive perhaps, made a choice which condemed her own flesh and blood to a life which was much worst than an quiet end would have been(though I am not to sure if would have been a quiet end). Even if she did survived she would probably never be the same, it fundmentally change her. It seems almost out of character for Tavore to make such a stupid choice, as if she didn't for see the damage which would have resulted from Felisin time at the mine.

And finally what makes this all the worst is she did it for what? Her family honour? Maybe this is just a personal thing but I would rather die with my brother than have him sent into slavery, and I would find not greater honour than to die by his side. She fucked up.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 16 February 2011 - 05:23 AM

[worry]

Why would you consider it your right to determine your brother's death though?

[Studlock]

I wouldn't, but I put myself in Tavore shoes, and she had the chose of becoming Adjunct (sp?) or dieing with her family. Was it her right? No but she was giving a choice and I believe she made the wrong one. Of course if she did die wouldn't have any plot, and generally I enjoy Tavore but this one point makes me anger. There had to be another way.

[beru]

if you got one... pray tell

[Ceda Cicero]

I realize this is the HoC forum and this thread is old, but since the OP said he didn't mind spoilers I'm going to make a vague reference to series ending stuff. No technical spoilers, but this is fair warning that what I'm saying is based on knowledge of the books that follow HoC, even if I don't directly reference events therein. So don't open this spoiler tag if you're not into that.

Spoiler

I for one believe that we haven't seen the last of the Tavore/Felisin situation, and that Tavore is still - in some way, shape or form - going to have to confront some kind of consequences for how she dealt with Felisin. I'm also anticipating that we'll get some further insight into why she made the choices she did. I disagree with those who think it's been fully resolved and that Tavore will never know she dealt the fatal blow. I have some specific theories to support that idea, but articulating them would require referencing the 10 page excerpt from tCG that went up on Tor. If you want them, though, ask and I'll elaborate in spoiler tags.

Also as to the original argument of Tavore not being as fully developed as Felisin (who was extensively and at times exhaustively developed): the unknowability is one of her defining character traits. She's meant to be unknowable. It doesn't point to a deficit in SE's writing because he's deliberately constructed her that way. For my part, she's easily one of my favorite characters.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 16 February 2011 - 04:49 PM

[Studlock]

beru, on 16 February 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

if you got one... pray tell

First, I would like to say sorry for the unreadable post above, nerd rage had taken me over. Second as I stated before, as a woman of her rank and backround she could have chosen a different way, she had the resoucres. A Quon Tali princess hid in a farmhouse (Or some other rural area, my memory of RofCG is fuzzy at the moment) from the Claw and Laseen surely Felisin would have been, if not just as easy, quite easy to hide anywhere. She could of hired a ship and crew to ransack the slave ships. Or she could of have taken Felisin somewhere completely different after the show and tell of the prolouge was done. Anyways my point is I don't believe for one second in a world as large as Wu and with character as smart as Tavore that sending a sixteen year old to slave mines with a single assassin was the only option, perhaps the easist but not the only option. Of course I could be completely wrong, and this was indeed the only option and Tavore did the best she could with the amount of time and room to move given to her. Even if this is true I would still mark this decision as the dark spot of Tavore's otherwise awesome character.

At this point I would like to praise SE's writing for making me both hate and like a character at the same time. Damn you.

[Hoods Breath]

I think the Felisin story just brings home the point that Tavore is a tragic figure. Despite her best intentions, cold logic, and smarty-pantsness... everything she touches turns to feces. This seems to be an ongoing theme with her yet...

Spoiler

having read to DoD... .she's the main character being relied upon to save the world... I think.

[Calmerwater]

This is a really interesting thread - for me, I think Tavore and Felisin are both tragic figures - I can accept that Tavore felt the need to be seen to enslave her sister, in order to keep/obtain her position of as Adjunct - and to be seen to be completely on the Empresses side and avoid the death of House Paran etc ... but to some extent that is unsatisfactory though. I am hoping that actually Tavore has taken the Adjunct post for reasons which we don;t know yet - the Fat Lady hast not sung yet, and there were plenty of surprises in the later books, which leads me to agree with Ciceronian - I doubt this is the end of that side of Tavore and I haven;t read the TOR excerpt of TCG, so cant comment, but I reckon there's more to come..

Personally I really like Tavore - but I find her heroic and brave - and her killing Felisin was just tragic, for both of them, I couldn;t help sitting there first time I read it going "Nooooooooo!!!" But there was nothing I could do - this is the way the book tells it happened, and therefore I had to accept it. I was gutted though - for Tavore and her ignorance, and for what seemed like suicide on Felisin's part. But let;s hope this isn;t the end.

I have to hand it to Kityhawk though, she has passionately displayed a loyalty to a character which has until now been one of my lesser favourites and enabled me to see Felisin differently - so thanks Kityhawk, if you're still reading this thread.... !

This post has been edited by Calmerwater: 18 February 2011 - 11:02 PM

[Calmerwater]

Kityhawk, on 28 February 2011 - 02:45 AM, said:

Calmerwater, on 18 February 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

This is a really interesting thread - for me, I think Tavore and Felisin are both tragic figures - I can accept that Tavore felt the need to be seen to enslave her sister, in order to keep/obtain her position of as Adjunct - and to be seen to be completely on the Empresses side and avoid the death of House Paran etc ... but to some extent that is unsatisfactory though. I am hoping that actually Tavore has taken the Adjunct post for reasons which we don;t know yet - the Fat Lady hast not sung yet, and there were plenty of surprises in the later books, which leads me to agree with Ciceronian - I doubt this is the end of that side of Tavore and I haven;t read the TOR excerpt of TCG, so cant comment, but I reckon there's more to come..

Personally I really like Tavore - but I find her heroic and brave - and her killing Felisin was just tragic, for both of them, I couldn;t help sitting there first time I read it going "Nooooooooo!!!" But there was nothing I could do - this is the way the book tells it happened, and therefore I had to accept it. I was gutted though - for Tavore and her ignorance, and for what seemed like suicide on Felisin's part. But let;s hope this isn;t the end.

I have to hand it to Kityhawk though, she has passionately displayed a loyalty to a character which has until now been one of my lesser favourites and enabled me to see Felisin differently - so thanks Kityhawk, if you're still reading this thread.... !

Thanks for your comments I always check up on old threads from time to time. Though I am about to leave this forum for reasons stated in my Crippled God thread. Having Read all the books Felisin still ranks as one of my favourite chracters, and I'm not quite anti-Tavore any more though I don't think she's as good a character, too cryptic and distant for me. One more thing though I'M A GUY!!!! My user name derrives from Kittyhawk the place where the Wright brothers made the first powered flight of an aeroplane, but I had to use one "T" because that was taken.

Hi Kityhawk, I'm sorry I offended you with my assumption about your gender.

[Jegna Til]

I felt sad for Felesin simply because she was a child. Everyone I remember in the books that everyone sought to use her in one way or another simply to further their own agendas. Maybe Heboric cared for her the most, he seemed to come out of some darkness in order to help her. To my eyes there was no one she could safely talk to, she had to masquerade as an adult around all the adults and by doing that she knew what her role would be, as a symbol of some kind.