The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation

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The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation Request for Spoiler's

#41 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 10:35 PM

HoosierDaddy, on 14 November 2009 - 09:36 PM, said:

Either you desperately need to re-read Deadhouse Gates, or you need some perspective. Did she have any free will at all? Did she have any choices in the matter? If she did, what were they? How would those choices have affected the actions of her COVERT protector (she was culled, the Adjunct couldn't be seen by Laseen to have provided a way out for her sister, otherwise what's the point of the cull in the first place? Just more ways the nobility are able to buy their way into and out of things through money or influence), or Heboric?

How you can be so... sympathetic? Empathetic? Of Felisin's situation, and yet so black and white and WRONG on the other two is just astounding.

Erm okay. Firstly as I have said previously I think that for about 90% of the time Felisin was being maniplulated and abused by one person (or entity) or another. In some cases its difficult to see where the manipulation and Felisin's free will begins, if it exists at all. Not quite sure what you mean when you say "how would those choices have affected her covert protector?" Are you suggesting that she turned Baudin and Heboric against her by her actions? I can't see that myself at least not until later in DHG. As for Tavore's escape plan for Felisin, I realise the Adjunct couldn't be seen to be involved in that but I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that this is the reason why Baudin didn't intervene with Beneth? Because I shouldn't have thought that would have got back to Tavore if Baudin had killed him. Or are you saying this is the reason why Heboric and Baudin made it appear that Felisin was not part of their escape plans?

Are you trying to say that Heboric and Baudin don't have their own agenda? Maybe I did go OTT with the whole Heboric father metaphor and Baudin being the worst bodyguard ever. But I still think neither of them were her friends. And I didn't get it when Hood had Baudin joined his House and came to collect his soul personally. I mean there seems to be many more characters who would seem to be more deserving of the honour (not sure if it is actually an honour or even that great). Or did Hood just pick him at random?

Lastly I find it ironic that you end by you saying "How you can be so...sympathetic? Empathetic? Of Felisin's situation, and yet so black and white and Wrong on the other two...."---- So "HoosierDaddy" you are basically calling me narrow-minded and "WRONG" for my opinions about Baudin and Heboric. I find this ironic because that in itself is a narrow-minded statement. The things I have said I have not claimed them to be anything more than my OPINIONS. And surely all interpretations of any novel Malazan or otherwise is merely peoples I opinions. I don't claim mine to be any superior or better than anyone else's and I respect it when other people disagree with mine (although I reserve the right to argue with them, which is enjoyable). But I don't see that someone's opinion of a novel is any more right or wrong than an alternate opinion.

#42 HoosierDaddy

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 12:54 AM

Kityhawk, on 18 October 2009 - 01:35 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 18 October 2009 - 01:00 PM, said:

Consider that while Tavore may or may not know that she killed Felisin (I'm voting that she didn't), Ganoes certainly doesn't know.

Don't quite know what you mean by that Illuyankas. Only having read up to House of Chains I'd say she probably doesn't know. That doesn't mean I can like her any more, though. She was still the one mostly responsible for Felisin's death, by sending her to the mine's and orchestrating her escape.

And of course Ganoes doesn't know about any of it. I wish he did.

You want to know why I suggest a re-read? It's because I read (present tense), and know you aren't comprehending the total picture. If you are blaming Tavore, of all people, for this it shows you have missed the bigger picture being portrayed by this incident, and are blinded by Felisin's viewpiont. Understandable, because hers is the only one of Tavore, Felisin, or Ganoes' we receive, but there is textual information that should help you view this in a more holistic.

We'll begin with, she was "mostly responsible" by "sending her to the mines."

1. Who were the people sent to the mines in that boat? Nobles. Felisin of House Paran, is a noble. Why does Laseen, the Empress, feel as though the nobility needs culled? Because Ganoes, of House Paran, when first introduced in Gardens of the Moon to Adjunct Lorn, right hand of the Empress, states to Lorn that officer corps of the Malazan Military is being bought and sold by the "nobility." After having heard this, Lorn issue instructs for a throrough investigation of the nobility's in roads into the officer corps. This extremely important because Laseen depends upon her military to police and increase her empire. Said peace and increase goes to further the riches of the major trade factors, which just so happen to mostly be the "nobility." Thus, the efficacy of the army is being decreased with noble officers, undeserving of their rank (Pormqual, cough), while they continue to get richer and richer. Wealth + armies isn't good for an Empress' secure position is it? No.

2. Tavore knew the cull was coming. If one thing can be said for Tavore, it is that she can read a situation. Thus, knowing that a cull was coming in the nobility, Tavore took the place of Adjunct. Her brother is a member of a renegade army, AND was placed where he was thanks to his family. So, Tavore takes the position and initiates the cull, becoming hated by the nobility and, in the future, by Felisin.

However, if Tavore does not agree to become Adjunct, then what? Not only is her house in a depleted position because of Ganoes, there is a cull coming. House Paran's influence is going to plummet if some other person does, meaning House Paran will have NO influence on future events as they are to occur. So, Tavore has to sacrifice Felisin's near future, for Felisin's entire future. Does Felisin escape that camp without Baudin and Heboric? No.

3. How does helping her to escape help facilitate her death? Granted, in this case it only delayed it, but for Felisin's activites after escaping she might have lived for quite a while longer. However, but for Tavore's helping her escape, Felisin would have died in the mining camp.

So, pardon me if I read that and see that either you didn't quite get those subtle connections the first read (who would?), or you were over looking Tavore's rock and hard place position. Simply extracting that after seeing more "black and white" where the context would lend to much more grey in Baudin and Heboric (helping her escape and all, Heboric staying with her as her remaining like to actually being Felisin and not some made up persona, and other stuff), leads me to believe you just aren't getting what's there.

So, I don't devalue your opinions, I devalue your argument when you don't notice textual information that would go against opinions that aren't being argued well. Hearing, "re-read, you missed stuff" would have been nicer. But, I disagreed thoroughly with what you have written in this topic, and that came out a little heavy handed.

Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....

#43 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:02 PM

HoosierDaddy, on 15 November 2009 - 12:54 AM, said:

Kityhawk, on 18 October 2009 - 01:35 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 18 October 2009 - 01:00 PM, said:

Consider that while Tavore may or may not know that she killed Felisin (I'm voting that she didn't), Ganoes certainly doesn't know.

Okay lets get into it then Hooiser. I agree with everything you say in point 1 so we can just leave that for now.

2. Perhaps you are right that Tavore became Adjunct to preserve or restore her family's position, certainly you hear that part of the reason was because of Ganoes being (or appearing to be) a rebel which would no doubt have tainted House Paran. But what do you think were Tavore's primary motivations in becoming Adjunct? Was it to secure power and influence for her House or to protect Felisin? Or both? I can see that those two things would be major factors but in my opinion the former would outweigh the latter. I don't think Tavore would have become Adjunct specifically for Felisin's benefit. Also I was never certain if when Felisin Baudin and Heboric escape from the mines if that was what Tavore intended (ie: her plan) or if that was just Heboric's escape and they were just tagging along. Does she "escape without Baudin and Heboric?" Well no obviously not. But did they intend her to come with them from the start?

//Aside: I was never quite sure how Tavore became Adjunct in the first place. The details seem a bit sketchy right now. I don't imagine someone can just go up to the Empress and say "I'd like to be the new Adjunct please." I know she arranges the cull to gain a certain amount of kudos (and does she have her mother killed or does she commit suicide? I can't remember) But before Tavore became Adjunct surely she must have had some connection with the Empress or gone through some sort of tests or application process?

3. "How does helping her to escape help facilitate her death?" Well that one is easy. It's cause and effect. Every action has a greater or lesser reaction. It's like the gunner on the star destroyer at the start of Star Wars episode 4. If the gunner had destroyed the escape pod that C3PO and R2D2 went to the planet in then they wouldn't have met up with Luke and Obi Wan and gone looking for the princess. In this case if Tavore hadn't sent Felisin to the mines then she wouldn't have escaped, became the Sha'ik and had that fateful reunion with Tavore. I'm not saying it was solely Tavore's fault (although I don't like her personally) but she did play her part in Felisin's downfall.

As to Baudin and Heboric "staying with her as her remaining like to actually being Felisin" I guessing you mean "link" there and not "like". Okay that's certainly one way of looking at it. But just who and what it the Real Felisin. It would a lot easier to answer that question if we had seen her in a situation prior to the cull. However I would say that you only see the real Felisin very rarely in the books. And Baudin and Hebroic staying with her to preserve that? I would say that that link was already beginning to fade even when they met her. And when they were in the mines it faded even more. And surely Baudin and Heboric trying to preserve the real Felisin only goes to suggest that they should have done more to stop becoming more "screwed up"?

I'll admit that I don't like Tavore but that's because of my own personal reasons(sorry it's an Italian vendetta kind of thing). I grudgingly admit she's not evil or some arch villian or something stupid like that, and perhaps she even has good reasons for doing what she did. But I still maintain that she was indirectly responsible for Felisin's death.

I also don't like Heboric because I think he and Buadin could have done more for Felisin (if as you say one of their motivations was to preserve the real Felisin). And I don't like the way that Heboric seems to give up on Felisin and focus on her adoptive daughter instead. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that but then I nearly always am picking the wrong side to play for.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 15 November 2009 - 02:12 PM

#44 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 02:49 PM

I agree with you about Baudin he did a pretty crap job as a bodyguard and didn't deserve to be honoured by Hood. It could be Erikson simply failed to convey just how devoted he was to her because what's on paper suggests he got less and less interested in her well being until he was merely going through the motions at the end. It seems to me that instead of simply protecting her he felt the need to judge her and finding her wanting he decided to leave her to her own devices. Alternatively he might simply have felt that he had the right to interfere in only some things. If she chose to be with Beneth he wouldn't do anything unlike if say Beneth had simply grabbed her and attempted to take her unwillingly. That being said I believe Baudin was meant to engineer her escape on his own initiative and simply latched onto Heboric since he seemed to already have people planning to rescue him.

#45 Sinisdar Toste

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 06:25 PM

Ben Adephon Delat, on 15 November 2009 - 02:49 PM, said:

Baudin was the main engineer of their escape form skullcup, thats what he was busy doing while felisin was with beneth. he wasn't the best bodyguard sure, but his commission was to find a way to escape from the mines. he did that. he couldn't very well actually guard felisin in any real way, that would have been completely suspect to her, beneth and anyone else who was interested (sawark maybe) and her identity needed to be kept secret. as well as the fact that tavore was having her rescued. just good luck that heboric had someone rescuing him.
i don't believe that heboric or baudin ever liked felisin much, but they cared about her, that much is obvious. felisin was resentful and embittered from the start if baudin had let any hint of his true purpose out she would not have gone along with it. so he had to appear uncaring and distant.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 08:05 PM

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 November 2009 - 06:25 PM, said:

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction, to not like someone but care about them. I don't know anyone that I don't like but care about.

#47 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:07 PM

Well I suppose that places his lacklustre efforts in a better light. Despite that I reckon Fener's mortal sword from MoI would have been a better knight and actually seems more deserving of the honour

#48 HoosierDaddy

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:16 PM

1. Fener's Mortal Sword serving another God? Nope. He wouldn't do it. Outright refused Gethol on behalf of Hood to his face, and took such affront to it he sliced him open.
2. You are underestimating, Baudin a bit, in my opinion.

@Kityhawk: You don't have any family members that you don't like but still care about? Ex girlfriend, boyfriend, wife/husband? Lucky you, Kityhawk. Seriously.

#49 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:24 PM

Considering Treach just helped himself to Herboric and the Chained God helped himself to Karsa consent doesn't seem to be an issue

#50 beru

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:31 PM

exsept the whole other GOD migth take offence...
and not to mention Paran...

i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels

#51 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:33 PM

Well I doubt Fener will be a problem but I've seen what happens to gods who cross Paran and it's not pretty

#52 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:40 PM

HoosierDaddy, on 15 November 2009 - 10:16 PM, said:

Thank you Hoosier it is true though can't speak for other people. Maybe that makes me cold hearted ba***rd but I just don't see what is the point of wasting feelings on someone you cannot stand. I should point out that hating someone is not the same as not caring about them (I know that might be obvious but just felt the need to point it out). And anyway I don't think Felisin really falls into the Exs category with Baudin and Heboric.

PS: What's this stuff about crossing Paran?? Am I missing something (No don't answer that Hoosier)? Or is that about stuff that happens after HOC?

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 15 November 2009 - 10:47 PM

#53 beru

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:50 PM

its in The bonehunters actualy...
i wont sopiler it

but just dont cross him MKAY?

and it also seems that you all have forgoten that both Feslin and Baudin were in love with each other (see death scene)

annyways im blaiming the durthag...

i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels

#54 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:57 PM

beru, on 15 November 2009 - 10:50 PM, said:

Erm okay yeah. What? No I didn't see that. I thought she just slept with him to gain some leverage over him. I thought it was just another example of Felisin using sex as a weapon. Sorry Beru don't mean to put you on the spot but can you remember where abouts in the book it says that? Becuase if it's true they both acted absolute idiots about it.

#55 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:03 PM

I'm with Kittyhawk, Felisin seemed to be in her usual manipulative role and Baudin his usual contemptuous self

#56 beru

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:05 PM

hokay

first death scene (parprased):

Feslin cradled Baudins head in her lapan cryed sayin somting like "you werent what i thoght you were", baudin responds: "neather were you"

narrator" an armor can hide even a child, espessyaly a child" end of capter (i think) and yes she slept with him for leverage.

and remeber that Baudin had lived his whole life as a supersecret aget and then got tossed out to a drug abusing teenager prostitute... and asked to babysitt, no suprise it was akward

i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels

#57 Ben Adephon Delat

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:10 PM

That doesn't really seem like love to me. There's enough relationships in this series for one to get a grasp of how relationships work in the book and this one just isn't pressing any of the right buttons. It seems akin to Pearl/Lostara or less like but still similar to Whiskeyjack/Korlat but if it were Felisin would have acted as Lostara is doing or like Korlat did but she certainly didn't act like someone whose love died

#58 beru

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:20 PM

found the qoute (page 597 trade paperback):
'You were wrong' Se wispered, an image of armour within her suddenly cracking, fissures spreding. And beneath it,behind it, somthing was building.
'my vow'
'your vow'
'your sister . . .'
'Tavore'
'She-'
'don't. No, Baudin. say nothing of her'
he drew a ragged breath. 'you . . .'
Feselin waited, hoping the life would flee this husk, flee now, before
'you . . . were . . . not what i exspected'
armor can hide anything until the moment it falles away.
Even a child. Espescialy a child.

so he obviusly had feelings for her (and she for him)

i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:11 AM

beru, on 15 November 2009 - 11:20 PM, said:

Thanks for taking the trouble to look it up.

Well They sure pick their moments don't they? I still think they acted like absolute prats about it if that's the way they felt. And Felisin? Goodness she must have the worst timing and luck in the history of the universe. I seriously think she may be the most doomed and tragic character of any book ever written. Romeo and Juilet can't even come close to that.