Malazan Empire: The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation - Malazan Empire

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The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation Request for Spoiler's

#61 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:10 AM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 15 November 2009 - 10:24 PM, said:

Considering Treach just helped himself to Herboric and the Chained God helped himself to Karsa consent doesn't seem to be an issue


But Heboric had basically withdrawn his worship of Fener, whereas the MS was faithful all the way.

And Karsa had spent his life in worship of what turned out to be an agent of the Crippled God, so he was being set up for the position anyway.

But I'm a bit confused by all this talk of the 'honour' of being the Knight of the House of Death. The positions in the deck seem to be far more about manipulation and scheming than 'bestowing honour.' I think from Hood's point of view it was just a more practical choice to take an assassin type guy than a noble character such as the MS.
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#62 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:17 PM

What about Gruntle he claimed and still claims to worship no god but that doesn't stop him from being Treach's mortal sword.

beru: Maybe it was love but if it was it's quite possibly the worst relationship in the book and that's saying something when in the company of such wonders as Apsalar/Crokus
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#63 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 02:12 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 16 November 2009 - 12:17 PM, said:

What about Gruntle he claimed and still claims to worship no god but that doesn't stop him from being Treach's mortal sword.

beru: Maybe it was love but if it was it's quite possibly the worst relationship in the book and that's saying something when in the company of such wonders as Apsalar/Crokus


Denying worship of any god is a little different to worshipping a different god though.
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#64 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 03:10 PM

With regards facing another god's wrath it is but with regards the consent or lack thereof of the person chosen it's exactly the same. Gruntle wasn't planning on serving Treach so how is him being press ganged into serving him any differant from the same happening to Heboric. I'm just saying that if Hood wanted Fener's mortal sword he could've taken him since Fener wasn't around to complain and consent isn't an issue.

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 16 November 2009 - 03:11 PM

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:17 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 16 November 2009 - 03:10 PM, said:

With regards facing another god's wrath it is but with regards the consent or lack thereof of the person chosen it's exactly the same. Gruntle wasn't planning on serving Treach so how is him being press ganged into serving him any differant from the same happening to Heboric. I'm just saying that if Hood wanted Fener's mortal sword he could've taken him since Fener wasn't around to complain and consent isn't an issue.


Agreed. With regards to bestowing an "honour" on someone by having them serve a god I'm not convinced it is (certainly not in many cases). But if people Like Gruntle, Heboric don't have any say in the matter anyway then Hood could have chosen just about anyone he wanted. It just seems a little likely that out of all those possible candidates in the whole world he chose Baudin. (I mean Baudin may have some hidden talents that I'm not aware of yet) But even being a talon, he's hardly had much going on in his life to shout about. I mean if I was Hood he'd hardly be my first choice.
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#66 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:43 PM

Maybe his relative anonymity was something Hood desired at the time.

I mean the first task that we know of that Knight of Death Baudin had to perform was the bit in MoI with Coll and Murilio right? Maybe Hood didn't want someone who was well known in the area and had died in glowingly noble fashion a couple of hundred meters away at that moment?

I think... part of us loves it when a character we like gets ascendancy of some form (even if that character is often pissed off about it.) I just see nothing, nothing at all, illogical about the choice of Buadin for the role except that we, as fans, would have liked someone different. But SE has never really pandered to us that way.

I suspect though that there is more to being selected for a position in one of the houses than has been fully explained. The Mortal Sword had a real faith of steel. For some reason I just can't see him working for any other god after Fener's fall. Gruntle and Heboric were utterly opposite - pretty much broken in spirit at the points they were chosen. I can't help but think this is a factor. Also... from the character profile we start to get for Hood, I don't think he would force the position upon someone who would be so averse to it.
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#67 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 05:00 PM

Im a little bit suprised by seeing Baudin as "bad bodyguard". If you look back, he dragged Felisin through hell - and alive. March in Chains, escape from mines, he covered her on Silanda and saved her during capsize. And finally, he badly hurt and drove off one of most powerful DīIvers. Mere man. I cant see where he could work better way. Ruin called Felisin on herself. She wasnt really under pressure of some higher power till last days of Apocalypse eruption. She was simply selfish nasty lil bitch. She drove off Heboric and Baudin (who was capable protecting her), Kulp and even in Hearth of Apocalypse she didnt act like she could - and no, it wasnt Dryjhna. She reaped what se saw.
From my POV, her only really tragic moment is final day and duel with Tavore.

Nope, I simply cant see person who acts like her as some tragic player. Because, in times when she acted worst, no ascendand gave a shit bout her (sorry for my language, not meant as offence, just...looked appropriate to me:))

Baudin was the tragic man. Full of ideals was prepared to protect lil girl from noble family. He got only loathing, hurting and intentional refusal to understand... And still held his watch.
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#68 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:16 PM

View PostUlrik, on 16 November 2009 - 05:00 PM, said:

Im a little bit suprised by seeing Baudin as "bad bodyguard". If you look back, he dragged Felisin through hell - and alive. March in Chains, escape from mines, he covered her on Silanda and saved her during capsize. And finally, he badly hurt and drove off one of most powerful DīIvers. Mere man. I cant see where he could work better way. Ruin called Felisin on herself. She wasnt really under pressure of some higher power till last days of Apocalypse eruption. She was simply selfish nasty lil bitch. She drove off Heboric and Baudin (who was capable protecting her), Kulp and even in Hearth of Apocalypse she didnt act like she could - and no, it wasnt Dryjhna. She reaped what se saw.
From my POV, her only really tragic moment is final day and duel with Tavore.

Nope, I simply cant see person who acts like her as some tragic player. Because, in times when she acted worst, no ascendand gave a shit bout her (sorry for my language, not meant as offence, just...looked appropriate to me:))

Baudin was the tragic man. Full of ideals was prepared to protect lil girl from noble family. He got only loathing, hurting and intentional refusal to understand... And still held his watch.


this is basically my reading of it. felisin, willingly and not, is blind to so much about baudin, thats the tragedy
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#69 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:29 PM

I agree about Felisin, but I do think it's fair to expect that kind of reaction from a girl that (to her knowledge) is put in to slavery by the only family she really thinks is alive, and then more or less forced in to being a sex slave, during which time she only copes through a tragic drug dependancy.

There's a couple of scenes (one I'm a little fuzzy on in DG, and then in HoC when she breaks down crying on Heboric when she realises that Ganoes is alive) where it's clear that inside she knows what a little bitch she is being but is too broken to break down the wall she's built around herself.
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#70 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:32 PM

View PostKanubis, on 16 November 2009 - 06:29 PM, said:

I agree about Felisin, but I do think it's fair to expect that kind of reaction from a girl that (to her knowledge) is put in to slavery by the only family she really thinks is alive, and then more or less forced in to being a sex slave, during which time she only copes through a tragic drug dependancy.

There's a couple of scenes (one I'm a little fuzzy on in DG, and then in HoC when she breaks down crying on Heboric when she realises that Ganoes is alive) where it's clear that inside she knows what a little bitch she is being but is too broken to break down the wall she's built around herself.

i agree, in no way do i want to cheapen the trauma that felisin experiences, i just think its unfair not to give baudin and even heboric, their due.
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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:42 PM

View PostUlrik, on 16 November 2009 - 05:00 PM, said:

Im a little bit suprised by seeing Baudin as "bad bodyguard". If you look back, he dragged Felisin through hell - and alive. March in Chains, escape from mines, he covered her on Silanda and saved her during capsize. And finally, he badly hurt and drove off one of most powerful DīIvers. Mere man. I cant see where he could work better way. Ruin called Felisin on herself. She wasnt really under pressure of some higher power till last days of Apocalypse eruption. She was simply selfish nasty lil bitch. She drove off Heboric and Baudin (who was capable protecting her), Kulp and even in Hearth of Apocalypse she didnt act like she could - and no, it wasnt Dryjhna. She reaped what se saw.
From my POV, her only really tragic moment is final day and duel with Tavore.

Nope, I simply cant see person who acts like her as some tragic player. Because, in times when she acted worst, no ascendand gave a shit bout her (sorry for my language, not meant as offence, just...looked appropriate to me:))

Baudin was the tragic man. Full of ideals was prepared to protect lil girl from noble family. He got only loathing, hurting and intentional refusal to understand... And still held his watch.




Well with regards to Baudin I'd say he was a bad bodyguard because, while not knowing the bodyguard's code of conduct (I know he actually a Talon, but that was the "hat" he was wearing), but isn't a bodyguard supposed to preserve their charge's life. And surely that would apply to mind as well as body. I kinda get the feeling you're a Baudin fan, Ulrik so this may be a completely futile effort on my part but ok Baudin did get her out of the mines, and across the desert, and saved her from the D'ivers which was all very impressive. But I do think you seem to be viewing him as bit of a "Knight in Shining Armour" which he hardly was in my opinion. I mean for 99% percent of the time he seems to have nothing but contempt for Felisin and all for all his "ideals" about protecting a damsel in distress just makes him seem like even more of a bad bodyguard for not following them. I would say that Baudin was a very professional sort, who had been given a job that he didn't want to do or didn't like but knew he must fulfill his orders regardless.

With regards to Felisin, you seem to be in good company there as lot of people seem to feel that way. But I'm not one of them. I would argee with this:

"I'd say that the near total destruction of your family and life, goingto prison, seeing people savagely murdered before your eyes, survivinga riot, crossing a sea on a prison ship, being the whore of severaldozen people, being forcibly used, sliding into drugs both as a copingmechanism and because the pimps are encouraging addiction and docility,barely surviving a walk through a hellish desert, being driven by anobsessed goddess with little regard for mortal affairs, landing in acamp full of murderers and worse and having basically no time to relaxor a role model/advisor you can trust would mess anyone up - much lessa 16 year old girl." [amphibian]

I mean that's another reason why I think Baudin was no good as a bodyguard because even before he died the girl that was Felisin was already nearly dead (in spirit at least). I think to blame all Felisin's misfortunes on her is a bit harsh to say the least. And I've said before I in my opinion I don't think Heboric and Baudin were her friends. I not actually sure if she had any friends at all, (aside from maybe Ganoes possibly). But maybe that's just me looking at her in a similar idealistic view as you seem to view Baudin. (no offense meant, Ulrik)
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#72 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:04 PM

Im really not Baudin fan:) I do not count characters to be like "Im fan/ Im not", I just view this one that way (I event didnt like him much in first read and now, well, one of many). And no, he is no knight in shining armour and I never seen him like this - by cautious with your guesses and do not put ideas into my mind...:) (Im not offended...but nearly :D)

Felisin was really hit hard by all those events...but her reaction, to bark and bite at her saviours, well... not my way. She was good as dead without Heboric and Baudin. Didnt Baudin said samothing like "Cant save her if she doeasn want to"? Im not sure, Im not fan...:D For me simply Felisin went too eagerly into easy way of life to spread legs and got head stuffed by durhang. Noone from those she blamed forced her. And so, her death didnt moved me...maybe a little bit to feel of satisfaction... she didnt protect even her "daughter", she failed in everything.
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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:43 PM

View PostUlrik, on 16 November 2009 - 08:04 PM, said:

Im really not Baudin fan:) I do not count characters to be like "Im fan/ Im not", I just view this one that way (I event didnt like him much in first read and now, well, one of many). And no, he is no knight in shining armour and I never seen him like this - by cautious with your guesses and do not put ideas into my mind...:) (Im not offended...but nearly :D)

Felisin was really hit hard by all those events...but her reaction, to bark and bite at her saviours, well... not my way. She was good as dead without Heboric and Baudin. Didnt Baudin said samothing like "Cant save her if she doeasn want to"? Im not sure, Im not fan...:D For me simply Felisin went too eagerly into easy way of life to spread legs and got head stuffed by durhang. Noone from those she blamed forced her. And so, her death didnt moved me...maybe a little bit to feel of satisfaction... she didnt protect even her "daughter", she failed in everything.


Ulrik: Firstly I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth that was not my intention it was only the way part of your last post sounded that conveyed certain impressions (at least in my mind). Personally I don't think it's that bad to be fans of certain characters and therefore slightly biased towards them. I guess if I didn't think that I'd just be a complete hypocrite based on what I've said before.

But to say Felisin went eagerly in the easy way of life. WHAT???. Do you seriously think that? Because I can't see ANYTHING in Felisin's life that was easy. (at least not within the timeline of the books). And loads of characters in both DHG and HOC forced her to do things that led to her demise, yes sometimes she could have chosen not to do them but often it appeared that the only alternative was death. I guess maybe she should have chosen that.

And the whole business with her daughter. I think she must have cared about her, otherwise why adopt her in the first place? But bear in mind she was very much a puppet of the whirlwind goddess for most of that time. And the brief moment when Heboric frees her of that she does express strong feelings for her. Yes she failed to protect her but what with the whole Sha'ik thing and Heboric and Karsa and eveyone else not actually telling her, I don't think the blame for what happened to Felisin Younger lies squarely at Felisin's feet. I mean Karsa and Heboric both knew what Bidithal had planned for her and even they couldn't prevent it.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 16 November 2009 - 08:46 PM

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#74 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:10 PM

Eh, easy, wrong choice of word. Easier - to life in mines. Baudin and Pella(?) iirc had prepared way out much earlier, but cant escape due to her...erm, actions. Baudin from beginning showed that he is capable of defending her, without need to surrender her life (and you can say that she maybe saved Heboricand youīre right) - Yeah, its not simple case, I just want to say that I do not like Felisin. Despite she took her beating, her notorious chosing of wrong action made me dislike her. No to hated fox example...damn, no examples, I do not want to spoiler.

For Felising Younger - everyobody failed, but Older despite of Loricīs warning didt made anything. She wasn driven by Whirlwind in that time yet, she just needed Bidithal. And karsa, well, he is selfish enough and Heboric went into his "I, poor destriant" phase...and Loric came late. But F Older let Bidithal cripple whole army of her adoptive daughters...for me, again no plus point...

BUT - I do not see her in white/ black manner, for this is SEīs writing too complex. Her parts from HoC about "being third form Paranīs house" and forced prematurity hurts. Its very human, or realistic. But as in real life, although she was hurt, she always started at peoples who wanted to help her. And I dont like it in real and not in book:)

(and dont worry, really no offense was taken and I hope I didnt offended you)
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#75 User is offline   Kanubis 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:05 PM

I think it was just a tragic miscalculation on Tavore's part. She's a steely person - had it been her in the mines (and on the briefly mentioned but never seen horrific journey there) she probably would have had to iron will to get through with it. It doesn't seem like she was ever overly empathic with Felisin, and I think she only thought to provide physical assistance for Felisin through Baudin.

But poor Baudin is basically a killer. He doesn't have anything like the emotional arsenal to protect Felisin in the way that she truly needs - psychologically.

I suppose Heboric did his best, but he had no preperation for it. The fatherly figure role he somewhat lamely tries to adopt seems utterly unfamiliar to him (let's face it, a priesthood followed by a scholarly life isn't exactly ideal preperation for physcologically protecting a child either.)

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 16 November 2009 - 11:06 PM

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:17 PM

View PostUlrik, on 16 November 2009 - 10:10 PM, said:

Eh, easy, wrong choice of word. Easier - to life in mines. Baudin and Pella(?) iirc had prepared way out much earlier, but cant escape due to her...erm, actions. Baudin from beginning showed that he is capable of defending her, without need to surrender her life (and you can say that she maybe saved Heboricand youīre right) - Yeah, its not simple case, I just want to say that I do not like Felisin. Despite she took her beating, her notorious chosing of wrong action made me dislike her. No to hated fox example...damn, no examples, I do not want to spoiler.

For Felising Younger - everyobody failed, but Older despite of Loricīs warning didt made anything. She wasn driven by Whirlwind in that time yet, she just needed Bidithal. And karsa, well, he is selfish enough and Heboric went into his "I, poor destriant" phase...and Loric came late. But F Older let Bidithal cripple whole army of her adoptive daughters...for me, again no plus point...

BUT - I do not see her in white/ black manner, for this is SEīs writing too complex. Her parts from HoC about "being third form Paranīs house" and forced prematurity hurts. Its very human, or realistic. But as in real life, although she was hurt, she always started at peoples who wanted to help her. And I dont like it in real and not in book:)

(and dont worry, really no offense was taken and I hope I didnt offended you)


Ulrik I am really really sorry but I can't understand most of this post.

But I was fairly sure Felisin was under the Whirlwind's influence from pretty much the start of House of Chains and maybe even at the end of Deadhouse Gates.

Kanubis-- I agree on a number of levels with your assesments of Tavore, Baudin and Heboric.
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#77 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:37 PM

View PostKityhawk, on 16 November 2009 - 11:17 PM, said:

Ulrik I am really really sorry but I can't understand most of this post.


Do not apologize, Im tired and with it, my english is worse than usally...
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#78 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 02:54 PM

Baudin saved her life on numerous occasions - to me that makes him a good bodyguard. Even after Felisin "discharges" him, he stalks them through a sandstorm and keeps saving her. He may have been mean and uncaring of her emotions, but he still kept her alive. That doesn't reduce his competency as a bodyguard to me, just means he's not a particularly nice one (which I think was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#79 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 12:18 AM

I agree with D'rek - once they were in the mines the only way Baudin could have protected her from all that they had to deal with there would surely have seen him killed and therefore without any bodyguard whatsoever. His way, she at least was alive and they were able to escape.
Just because you are a bodyguard doesn't mean that you have to like the person - your job is to keep them alive, which he did.
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Posted 20 November 2009 - 12:52 AM

View PostHetan, on 20 November 2009 - 12:18 AM, said:

I agree with D'rek - once they were in the mines the only way Baudin could have protected her from all that they had to deal with there would surely have seen him killed and therefore without any bodyguard whatsoever. His way, she at least was alive and they were able to escape.
Just because you are a bodyguard doesn't mean that you have to like the person - your job is to keep them alive, which he did.


Well I'm not sure I really see that they only way he could have protected her in the mines would have had him killed too. I mean I'm not saying he should have declared himself as her honorable protector and stood vigil over her bed whilst she slept and vowing to kill any man who so much as looks at her. But I mean the guy is a professional assasin so I would have thought he would have some ideas on how to solve certain problems should he be so inclined.

I'm not saying he didn't save her life on numerous occasions but I just think he was the wrong man for the job. I mean like I said he was an assasin not a bodyguard/babysitter, it's not as if he would have any experience or knowledge on how to protect someone like Felisin. I'd agree that he did a pretty good job of keeping her body alive (but not her spirit) and a very poor job of protecting her.

Maybe that wasn't all his fault as I don't imagine he volunteered for that assignment and maybe he did the best he could. But that's the way it appeared to me. And no, if you are a bodyguard you don't have to like the person you are protecting but it helps to a bit otherwise you might decide they're not worth protecting. (not saying that was necessarily the case with Baudin just giving a for instance)
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