Malazan Empire: The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation - Malazan Empire

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The Felisin, Tavore, Paran Situation Request for Spoiler's

#21 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:51 PM

View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2009 - 10:31 PM, said:

The reactions of people to traumatic events is varied. I'd say that the near total destruction of your family and life, going to prison, seeing people savagely murdered before your eyes, surviving a riot, crossing a sea on a prison ship, being the whore of several dozen people, being forcibly used, sliding into drugs both as a coping mechanism and because the pimps are encouraging addiction and docility, barely surviving a walk through a hellish desert, being driven by an obsessed goddess with little regard for mortal affairs, landing in a camp full of murderers and worse and having basically no time to relax or a role model/advisor you can trust would mess anyone up - much less a 16 year old girl.

The "prison of the mind" stuff pops up a lot in battered women and children, as well as some veterans of war. Furthermore, all the help she got was sporadic, not always freely given and everyone was busy with their own agendas.

I'm not saying this exculpates Felisin from any blame, but that situation is very, very tough and I don't blame her for anything other than being a confused, scared young woman who stubbornly avoided consultation with the wiser people around her.


Thank you! I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that.

By the way when Tavore sends Lostra and Pearl to find Felisin, what do people think the real reasons for that were because I was never quite sure?

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 19 October 2009 - 10:56 PM

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#22 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:01 PM

I assume she expected Felisin to have been retrieved from the mines by then and seeing as she wasn't and knowing of the chaos that occurred at the mines she sent them to retrieve her
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#23 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:13 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 19 October 2009 - 11:01 PM, said:

I assume she expected Felisin to have been retrieved from the mines by then and seeing as she wasn't and knowing of the chaos that occurred at the mines she sent them to retrieve her


Yes, that's logical. But that wasn't the reasons she gave to Lostra and Pearl, or were they the same and I've got confused? But I thought it was something about uncovering the Talons because Baudin was one of them.

Also if Tavore sent Lostra and Pearl to retrieve Felisin and then (as some people believe) knew that it was Felisin she killed at the end, then surely she would have had some sort of reaction to that because the first act seems to suggest she cares about her if you look at it that way. I'm not saying I think she would have broken down in tears but I think if she cared about Felisin and had had to kill her I think her subsequent actions would have been quite different to what they were.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 19 October 2009 - 11:16 PM

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#24 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:21 PM

Lostara and Pearl had two missions. One for Tavore that is retrieving Felisin and one for the Empire that is uncovering the Talons.

Personally I reckon she didn't know but at the same time Tavore seems like the sort of person willing to sacrifice what she wants to what she needs to do. Did Felisin need to die? Hard to say IMO but I certainly doubt even if she were free of Shaik's influence and the attention of various gods and Ascendents that she'd be capable of returning to her former life. Then there's all the psychological damage she suffered.
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#25 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:37 AM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 19 October 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:

Lostara and Pearl had two missions. One for Tavore that is retrieving Felisin and one for the Empire that is uncovering the Talons.

Personally I reckon she didn't know but at the same time Tavore seems like the sort of person willing to sacrifice what she wants to what she needs to do. Did Felisin need to die? Hard to say IMO but I certainly doubt even if she were free of Shaik's influence and the attention of various gods and Ascendents that she'd be capable of returning to her former life. Then there's all the psychological damage she suffered.


Ok thanks for clearing that up.
I don't think Tavore knew she killed Felisin but I agree she'd have probably been willing to sacrifice her. I still think she would have acted differently if she knew, even if she was completely cold and uncaring, or wanted to maintain composure in front of the army.

Don't think hardly any of the characters in the books could go back to their former lives. Actually what you said there about Felisin suggests a slight comparison between her and Apsalar. Though there was only one god and one ascendent (just L'oric), I think?

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 20 October 2009 - 09:39 AM

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#26 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:36 AM

There's more but that would be spoiler territory. Anyway why does everyone keep calling Ganoes by his surname Paran. It's pretty confusing because they could be referring to Tavore or Felisin as well. At least say Captain Paran if you really hate his first name

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 20 October 2009 - 10:39 AM

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#27 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:39 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 20 October 2009 - 10:36 AM, said:

There's more but that would be spoiler territory. Anyway why does everyone keep calling Ganoes by his surname Paran. It's pretty confusing because they could be referring to Tavore or Felisin as well. At least say Captain Paran if you really hate his first name


Well that's how SE seems to refer to him most often. I don't believe Tavore or Felisin are ever referred to as just "Paran". But yes I don't like his first name that much but I think people just call him Paran out of habit from reading it so much. It's fairly common though in books where characters have the same surname for the male characters to be referred to simply by surname and female characters by christian name, and Ganoes Paran is the first member of his family introduced so that could also be why SE has him take up the surname mantle.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 20 October 2009 - 02:42 PM

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#28 User is offline   Pilgrim 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:23 PM

Felison's death was for me one of those awesome, incredible moments in SE's books where I just sit there dumbfounded, and have to stop reading for a bit to think about what I just read. That she went down without so much as a whimper, and in the end appeared to want nothing more than to reach out to her sister, only to have her gesture misinterpreted and receive a stabbing full of otataral... Well, this is what makes Erikson a great writer. Personally, I hated the character of Felison and I'm not really sure where the character could have gone had she not been killed, but the sheer awesomeness of the scene (not really anti-climax IMHO) made me overcome my dislike of Felison, and actually feel genuine sadness at her tragic death.
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#29 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:36 PM

Ordinarily Felisin's death should have washed away all my previous ill sentiment but I've become a fan of tvtropes.org and I read about the trope Redemption = Death and I'm afraid that I've become immune to the trope since then.
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#30 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:07 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 20 October 2009 - 05:36 PM, said:

Ordinarily Felisin's death should have washed away all my previous ill sentiment but I've become a fan of tvtropes.org and I read about the trope Redemption = Death and I'm afraid that I've become immune to the trope since then.


Yeah I disagree with you about Felisin but that Redemption=Death thing is a load of crap. If a character dies achieving something then it would work but if they just die it means nothing.Well I suppose it makes her character even more tragic from one point of view or not from another.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 20 October 2009 - 07:11 PM

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#31 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:10 PM

Her death effectively signals the end of the Whirlwind, so it does mean something.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#32 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:14 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 20 October 2009 - 07:10 PM, said:

Her death effectively signals the end of the Whirlwind, so it does mean something.


Yes, but I meant in terms of redemption for the character it means nothing.
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#33 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:19 PM

Well, that would depend on whether you think she had something to redeem wouldn't it? Either she was a victim forced into a terrible situation who was ultimately killed, meaning no redemption necessary, or her actions towards other actually due matter and, therefore, she needs to be redeemed. I was pleased as pudding to see her go, her character annoyed me immensely.

As for calling the characters by their names, in the books there is one "Paran", and that is Ganoes. Tavore is either Tavore or the Adjunct, and Felisin is either Felisin or Shaik.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#34 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:25 PM

My point is I hated her but her death was so tragic that ordinarily I would relinquish my hatred but now I realise that it's a common trope to make unlikeable characters likeable in one move I'm less inclined to change my mind about characters because of the way they died. Felisin may not fulfil the criteria for said trope but she's close enough for me that my dislike for her wasn't affected by her death. The fact that Ganoes and Tavore are ignorant of her death pleases me because both of them have enough to deal and neither seems like the sort who could simply shrug it off and keep going.

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 20 October 2009 - 07:34 PM

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#35 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:32 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 20 October 2009 - 07:25 PM, said:

My point is I hated her but her death was so tragic that ordinarily I would relinquish my hatred but now I realise that it's a common trope to make unlikeable characters likeable in one move I'm less inclined to change my mind about characters because of the way they died. Felisin may not fulfil the criteria for said trope but she's close enough for me that my dislike for her wasn't affected by her death. The fact that Ganoes and Tavore are ignorant of her death pleases me because both of them have enough to deal and neither seems like the sort who could simply shrug it off and keep going.


Yes well I agree that people shouldn't change their opinion of a character just because they die tragically. But I already liked Felisin's character before and her dying in a tragic "ironic" doomed kind of way didn't make me like her any more or less. (I wish it did in the latter case).

As for Ganoes and Tavore not knowing not sure I can say it pleases me. Try to forget you hate Felisin for a moment and how she died. If you were either of them and she was your sister wouldn't you want to know what happened to her?

I mean I suppose you have the whole ignorance is bliss thing going on and maybe it would be better for them not to know. But I still want them to find out eventually because I think it would make a dynamite scene. And I just think it's going to be one of those things that comes back to haunt them, and of course it wouldn't be something they could just shrug off but that's the point. I'm not a sadist or rooting for their destruction (although admitedly I'm not too fond of Tavore right now for obvious reasons) but I think its and issue that's got to be addressed before the end of the series. I already know from another member that Lostra and Pearl aren't the only ones who know the truth and that Lostra keeping secrets from Tavore is an ongoing thing in the following books. unless someone can give me undeniable proof to the contrary that all that is going nowhere I can only assume it's not. And I would be sorely disappointed if it were.

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 20 October 2009 - 10:40 PM

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#36 User is offline   arkane 

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 06:31 PM

I'm late coming into this, and I don't have much to contribute, but I had to post - because I feel exactly the same way about Felisin as you, Kityhawk. I actually first felt this level of emotion when Coltaine died. And I did quit reading the series then. I feel silly feeling so much despair and sadness over fictional characters, but it does show how great of a writer Erikson is. Despite the engrossing stories, I didn't think I could handle any more tragedy after Coltaine. My brother convinced me to keep reading, and mostly I'm glad I did, but I just finished House of Chains and hate the way I feel now. (I am actually relieved that Midnight Tides shifts gears a bit.) Erikson brilliantly enables understanding of and empathy with all kinds of imperfect people. Felisin was very hard to like for much of the time we see her and a lot of it wasn't fun reading, but knowing how she got to that point and seeing flashes of the young girl trapped in such awful circumstances really made me root for a good end for her. Not that I wanted everything to work out just fine for her, but I hoped for some point FOR HER for all that she had been through.

So I'm just trying to focus on all the puzzles so I don't get too wrapped up in any of the characters. I already fear for a couple of my favorites, so some of the other view points on here are helpful for putting the series into perspective. (I still long for justice, though, and while I don't wish too much ill on Tavore, I definitely don't want everything to work out great for her, darn it.)
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#37 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 01:42 AM

View Postarkane, on 12 November 2009 - 06:31 PM, said:

I'm late coming into this, and I don't have much to contribute, but I had to post - because I feel exactly the same way about Felisin as you, Kityhawk. I actually first felt this level of emotion when Coltaine died. And I did quit reading the series then. I feel silly feeling so much despair and sadness over fictional characters, but it does show how great of a writer Erikson is. Despite the engrossing stories, I didn't think I could handle any more tragedy after Coltaine. My brother convinced me to keep reading, and mostly I'm glad I did, but I just finished House of Chains and hate the way I feel now. (I am actually relieved that Midnight Tides shifts gears a bit.) Erikson brilliantly enables understanding of and empathy with all kinds of imperfect people. Felisin was very hard to like for much of the time we see her and a lot of it wasn't fun reading, but knowing how she got to that point and seeing flashes of the young girl trapped in such awful circumstances really made me root for a good end for her. Not that I wanted everything to work out just fine for her, but I hoped for some point FOR HER for all that she had been through.

So I'm just trying to focus on all the puzzles so I don't get too wrapped up in any of the characters. I already fear for a couple of my favorites, so some of the other view points on here are helpful for putting the series into perspective. (I still long for justice, though, and while I don't wish too much ill on Tavore, I definitely don't want everything to work out great for her, darn it.)


YEEEEEEESSSSS!!!! Finally someone agrees with me. Totally agree with you on everything. But I just can't help getting attached to characters I like, others books (not MBOF) where I don't I just find boring. I agree with you about Tavore too. I don't hate her character (at least not after my initial reaction). I mean I don't really think there's anything to hate aside from the fact she killed Felisin (unknowingly or not). Think I probably dislike Heboric more than her. But I still really really really want either her or Ganoes to find out the truth about Felisin by the end of the series. I actually think Ganoes may have more of a right to know seeing he seems to be the only character in the books who actually liked Felisin. But either way I will be absolutely furious with Steven Erikson if neither of them do and it's just left a big secret. But that's just me.
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#38 User is offline   Ben Adephon Delat 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:53 PM

Tavore thought Felisin was a bit silly but she certainly didn't dislike her. The only who one's who I can say definitely disliked her were all the members of the group bar Herboric and Baudin. I can see why Baudin didn't dislike her but I'm not so sure why Herboric didn't dislike her probably something to do with his view of humanity being an ex-priest and a historian.
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#39 Guest_Kityhawk_*

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:25 PM

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 14 November 2009 - 03:53 PM, said:

Tavore thought Felisin was a bit silly but she certainly didn't dislike her. The only who one's who I can say definitely disliked her were all the members of the group bar Herboric and Baudin. I can see why Baudin didn't dislike her but I'm not so sure why Herboric didn't dislike her probably something to do with his view of humanity being an ex-priest and a historian.


I never said Tavore disliked Felisin (although I don't think she cared that much for her) just that Ganoes was the only one who did (at least that's how it appears to me). As for Heboric and Baudin I can't even see that you could call them friends of Felisin. I mean Baudin was supposed to have been sent to protect her. He did a real great job of that didn't he. I mean okay in some cases it was just bad luck or "fate" but if Baudin really wanted to protect her and was her friend why did he let her get involved with Beneth in the first place. I mean this is a guy who the first time you read about him, he's hacking someone's head off, so why didn't he just kill Beneth at the start? As for Heboric neither he and Baudin hardly ever seem to perform any act of goodwill towards Felisin (apart from when she was beaten by Beneth and healing a couple of other injuries) unless it serves them too. I mean when they escape they only take Felisin with them because she discovers their plan. Their relatioship seems to me, more built on necessity than friendship. And to be honest I think Baudin may just be the worst bodyguard ever (Why Hood wants him is beyond my comprehension).
As for Heboric, in my opinion he did dislike her. I saw him a bit like a dissaproving father who doesn't offer any way for his children to be anything other than a disappointment. By HOC I'd say Heboric has pretty much given up on Felisin. I mean he is the only character in the book (bar possibly L'oric) who had the power to stop her being under the goddess's influence. So surely if he did like her and if he was her friend he would use that ifluence. I mean the only reason he stays with her is because she won't let him leave. For most of the book he doesn't even want to be there except when he wants to save Felisin Younger. Damn I feel sorry for her, imagine being a kid and having that guy looking after you. I mean it's not as if he's had a great track record with looking after kids so far.

PS: What "group" do you mean Ben? All the characters in the book? or the prisoners in the mines? or the Army of the Apocalypse (but Baudin wasn't there).

This post has been edited by Kityhawk: 14 November 2009 - 09:43 PM

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#40 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:36 PM

View PostKityhawk, on 14 November 2009 - 09:25 PM, said:

View PostBen Adephon Delat, on 14 November 2009 - 03:53 PM, said:

Tavore thought Felisin was a bit silly but she certainly didn't dislike her. The only who one's who I can say definitely disliked her were all the members of the group bar Herboric and Baudin. I can see why Baudin didn't dislike her but I'm not so sure why Herboric didn't dislike her probably something to do with his view of humanity being an ex-priest and a historian.


I never said Tavore disliked Felisin (although I don't think she cared that much for her) just that Ganoes was the only one who did (at least that's how it appears to me). As for Heboric and Baudin I can't even see that you could call them friends of Felisin. I mean Baudin was supposed to have been sent to protect her. He did a real great job of that didn't he. I mean okay in some cases it was just bad luck or "fate" but if Baudin really wanted to protect her and was her friend why did he let her get involved with Beneth in the first place. I mean this is a guy who the first time you read about him, he's hacking someone's head off, so why didn't he just kill Beneth at the start? As for Heboric neither he and Baudin hardly ever seem to perform any act of goodwill towards Felisin (apart from when she was beaten by Beneth and healing a couple of other injuries) unless it serves them too. I mean when they escape they only take Felisin with them because she discovers their plan. Their relatioship seems to me, more built on necessity than friendship. And to be honest I think Baudin may just be the worst bodyguard ever (Why Hood wants him is beyond my comprehension).
As for Heboric in my opinion he did dislike her. I saw him a bit like a dissaproving father who doesn't offer any way for his children to be anything other than a disappointment. By HOC I'd say Heboric has pretty much given up on Felisin. I mean he is the only character in the book (bar possibly L'oric) who had the power to stop her being under the goddess's influence. So surely if he did like her and if he was her friend he would use that ifluence. I mean the only reason he stays with her is because she won't let him leave. For most of the book he doesn't even want to be there except when he wants to save Felisin Younger. Damn I feel sorry for her, imagine being a kid and having that guy looking after you. I mean it's not as if he's had a great track record with looking after kids so far.


Either you desperately need to re-read Deadhouse Gates, or you need some perspective. Did she have any free will at all? Did she have any choices in the matter? If she did, what were they? How would those choices have affected the actions of her COVERT protector (she was culled, the Adjunct couldn't be seen by Laseen to have provided a way out for her sister, otherwise what's the point of the cull in the first place? Just more ways the nobility are able to buy their way into and out of things through money or influence), or Heboric?

How you can be so... sympathetic? Empathetic? Of Felisin's situation, and yet so black and white and WRONG on the other two is just astounding.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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