[Silencer]

@Powder, my point is, the Seguleh know him only as Blacksword. They do not know him as Anomander Rake, or a variant thereof. So, someone who hears about Vengeance/Grief, or sees it in action, may also give the sword another name, perhaps reflecting Rake's mood at the time.

[Powder]

 Silencer, on 01 October 2009 - 12:04 AM, said:

@Powder, my point is, the Seguleh know him only as Blacksword. They do not know him as Anomander Rake, or a variant thereof. So, someone who hears about Vengeance/Grief, or sees it in action, may also give the sword another name, perhaps reflecting Rake's mood at the time.

my bust then

[Sotgnomen]

 Binder of Demons, on 29 September 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

The most likely option is the sword being essentially being known through it's association with Rake.

But that would be no fun at all;)

Now imagine...
Dragnipurake means(as stated above) Dragonslayer, or Drinker of Dragonblood or somesuch. Even better if the "-ake" is the male form or something

Draconus's entrance in Kharkanas, and his seducing of Mother Dark caused the first rift in Andii society, sparking treachery and death in Galain. Mother Dark, grieved by this, casts Draconus out, but it is too late, and the bloodshed continiues. This drived MD into the arms of FL, spawning the Edur, and leading to Anomander drinking Tiams blood.

The slaying of Tiam caused a massive plague of soletaken dragons, and as we know, the blood of eleint does not play nice.
So over the next (years/centuries/millennia/idontknow) these new soletaken, maddened by the blood, threaten to ruin the equilibrium K'rul accomplished by binding the full eleint to his blood.
So, in answer to this, Draconus makes a sword, specifically made to kill dragons and trap their power. This is because these big powers have an annoying tendency not to stay decently dead. He already somehow bears Darkness as a blade(as he does after Dragnipur is shattered), so he somehow changes it so that anything he kills is chained to that gate for as long as the sword is whole.
This sword needs a name. And Draconus being a coldhearted sonuva, who was not on the best of terms with Anomander, gives it the very same name MD gave Anomander as she turned away. Anomander, furious at this, schemes with Envy to kill Draconus.

But oh no! The chaining of the Gate to Darkness has left it vulnerable, and Chaos aproaches. Draconus is aghast when he discovers this, and heartbroken, because he still loves MD. It almost breaks him, and in this state, Anomander and Envy come upon him and slay him. As he is dying, he tells anomander what has happened, and what he plans to do about it. So as Anomander feeds the sword with poweful beings, Draconus works from within, forcing everyone inside to pull the gate, fleeing the chaos.


Whew! ..yeah, probably has tons of holes i know, but i think i was just raped by a muse or something. Thats what long hours at work with nothing to do does for ya.

[Grief]

 Sotgnomen, on 05 October 2009 - 03:47 PM, said:

 Binder of Demons, on 29 September 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

The most likely option is the sword being essentially being known through it's association with Rake.

But that would be no fun at all;)

Now imagine...
Dragnipurake means(as stated above) Dragonslayer, or Drinker of Dragonblood or somesuch. Even better if the "-ake" is the male form or something

Draconus's entrance in Kharkanas, and his seducing of Mother Dark caused the first rift in Andii society, sparking treachery and death in Galain. Mother Dark, grieved by this, casts Draconus out, but it is too late, and the bloodshed continiues. This drived MD into the arms of FL, spawning the Edur, and leading to Anomander drinking Tiams blood.

The slaying of Tiam caused a massive plague of soletaken dragons, and as we know, the blood of eleint does not play nice.
So over the next (years/centuries/millennia/idontknow) these new soletaken, maddened by the blood, threaten to ruin the equilibrium K'rul accomplished by binding the full eleint to his blood.
So, in answer to this, Draconus makes a sword, specifically made to kill dragons and trap their power. This is because these big powers have an annoying tendency not to stay decently dead. He already somehow bears Darkness as a blade(as he does after Dragnipur is shattered), so he somehow changes it so that anything he kills is chained to that gate for as long as the sword is whole.
This sword needs a name. And Draconus being a coldhearted sonuva, who was not on the best of terms with Anomander, gives it the very same name MD gave Anomander as she turned away. Anomander, furious at this, schemes with Envy to kill Draconus.

But oh no! The chaining of the Gate to Darkness has left it vulnerable, and Chaos aproaches. Draconus is aghast when he discovers this, and heartbroken, because he still loves MD. It almost breaks him, and in this state, Anomander and Envy come upon him and slay him. As he is dying, he tells anomander what has happened, and what he plans to do about it. So as Anomander feeds the sword with poweful beings, Draconus works from within, forcing everyone inside to pull the gate, fleeing the chaos.


Whew! ..yeah, probably has tons of holes i know, but i think i was just raped by a muse or something. Thats what long hours at work with nothing to do does for ya.

Obvious hole being that you don't really have time for last words after being slain by dragnipur.
Also, from what we know of Anomander, he didn't kill Draconus because of MD turning away, as some sort of revenge.
Draconus was an evil, cruel bastard. I don't think MDs rejection of the andii had anything to do with Rakes decision to slay draconus. Especially considering his reaction to Mother Darks rejection.

[Silencer]

Indeed, technically Draconus was as cast out as Anomander was. Hence they ended up sharing the same world, for a start. Draconus didn't like Rake, probably because Rake refused to bow to him, or something.

As an aside, I think we know now, from TTH, why Raest would have meant Anomander could get taken out - not because Raest is anywhere near powerful enough to cause Rake problems, but because the addition of his soul to the sword would have been like a minor version of Hood, sans legions of the dead. XD
THEN the Galayn Lord would have taken him out. Because he'd be too weak to defend against it at that point.

[Sinisdar Toste]

could be that that was lorn's game all along, weaken rake with the most powerful jaghut tyrant of all, then sick a galayn lord, creature of pure light ,if i'm not mistaken, on the guy.

[Silencer]

It was, I believe. I think there were allusions to it, but not in reference to Dragnipur, just regarding weakening Rake enough to take him out. They just never specified how. XD

[blackzoid]

No, it was the addition of the armies of the dead (the entire realm of death's souls) that weakened Rake, not just the killing of Hood.

Think about it, if the slaying of Hood himself was what weakened Rake, then Dragnipur was a fundamently flawed weapon to begin with. Its deisgned to take out Ascendents/gods with a certain "finality".
Hood's death = weakening Rake, implies that their is a certain class level of Ascendent beyond which the bearer of Draginpur could not kill, otherwise they would become weak at the knees and would not be able to fight other foes.
A weapon that is designed to imprison Ascendents, but becomes unusable because too powerful an Ascendent has been imprisoned is pretty much a major design flaw. A flaw which I don't think Draconus would make.

Every single soul who has ever gone through Hood's gates went with Hood into Dragnipur. Thats what weakened Rake.

Draconus thinks as much, when he notices the armies of the death arrive in Dragnipur. He wonders if he could carry the sword now and whether Rake was a pulped mess as a result.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 October 2009 - 03:10 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I think any powerful ascendant is going to make Rake re-adjust to the added strain, that's just me. Yes, Hood was "worse" because of all the souls he brought.

[Powder]

Well given all of that info did Rake really 'cheat' Dassem then? Perhaps Karsa was refering to someone else... Afterall if Rake is dealing with added weight in the sword, goes for a high block and then realizes just how heavy the sword has become, just before it smashes him in the face? It would seem to clear up the 'why did'nt rake kill himself on the sword in the basement of Moon Spawn' question.

-Powder

[Sinisdar Toste]

err i dno. that seriously clashes with logic. he knew how heavy it was, he sank to his knees immediately after killing hood. why would he suddenly realize it again in the fight? he plays dassem. he shook off the weight. thats the cheat karsa was talking about.

[Silencer]

Yeah, I can't see him misjudging that. And "cheat" would not be a good word to use in that case.

And Hood himself did affect Rake - the armies of the dead did not, I think, arrive instantly. He struggled to stay upright for a second, then collapsed. It would not have happened before because Hood is immensely powerful. This is the guy who defeated death. THEN the weight of the armies? That's when, to my mind, Rake collapsed.
Now, Raest alone would not have driven Rake to his knees, but if the Galayn Lord was close by, it would have raped him while he adjusted to the weight and strain of adding another Jaghut Tyrant to his sword.

[blackzoid]

No, I can't agree there Silencer.

We have Draconus's own thoughts that even he might not be able to carry the sword now that the armies of the dead had arrived. Seeing as he is the creater of the sword I would hold his thoughts to be the primary case of evidence. He certainly doesn't wonder if Rake would have any problems with the sword, when he just saw Hood there.
Rake sank to his knees because he Hood starting dragging in thoses armies with him as soon as he was beheaded.

I mean think about it. How many people, Ascendents, demons, Gods etc have died throughout all of time. Thats a shitload of souls. How can any Ascendent, even Hood himself, compare with that?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 October 2009 - 09:24 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

just thought of something. i don't think the armies of the dead had anything at all to do with rake sinking to his knees. they aren't chained to the wagon are they? think about it. all those dead souls are is memories, but the chained retain so much more by virtue of being chained to the gate of darkness, which itself is the anchor of dragnipur. i guess im saying that the only entities that have an affect on dragnipurs metaphsyical "weight" are the ones that are actually killed by dragnipur.

edit: does rake notice when the trygalle carriage busts in carrying the mortal sword of trake? i don't think so

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 14 October 2009 - 03:36 PM

[blackzoid]

You are saying that the weight of the trygalle carriage which contains Trake's Mortal Sword should have had an extra weight and be noticeable by Rake in order for my theory, (not so much a theory since its confirmed in thoughts by Draconus, the designer of the sword) to be correct.

There probably WAS extra weight when the carriage arrived, but comparing it to the weight of the billions, upon billions upon billions upon billion etc etc of every single thing that has ever died is insane. It was probably an miniuscle increase in weight. And the souls are not all just memories, we have seen Undead-Dragons from Hood's Realm, the Ascendent Bridgeburners etc.
Now possibly some of the Asdendents who dies, lost their power and weight, but the sheer number of them should account for a lot. Its every single indvidual who has ever lived, Ascendent or otherwise (unless some other God takes their soul, which is not done for the normal non hero people as they seem to go through Hoods Gate)

When Rake kills Pearl (an Ascendent who Draconus thinks is quite powerful and could destroy a city), he is not affected. When Rake kills the Galayn Lord he is winded yes, but he did take a blow to the shoulder from what I remember.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

[Silencer]

An demon who could destroy a city.
A Jaghut Tryant, who could enslave a continent and wake Burn on a whim. I believe your scale of reference is skewed, sir. We also did not see Rake's reaction to killing Pearl.
The Hounds were not an issue for him, but then again, they are not even comparable to a normal ascendant in terms of power, for the most part. Wild, bundled balls of energy, yes, but still not even a threat to Anomander or Osserc, despite the presence of Shadowthrone AND Cotillion.
Hood? Lord of Death, Jaghut of incomparable power and age - probably Gothos is his only comparable entity, outside of Rake himself. Yes, the souls were what really pushed him down, as we see from Draconus' perspective. However, Hood himself literally blasted the chaos in the sword backwards, as Rake did. That means he is powerful beyond anything else that has arrived in the sword. And in this case, one could safely assume that power = weight.

I just can't see any other reason for Raest to be a threat to Rake. Magically, he was taken down by Quick Ben and a Cusser. Rake is the Son of Darkness, and Archmage of the Tiste Andii. His soul lived through that, but had to be imprisoned in an Azath. And Dragnipur >>> Azath when it comes to taking souls. So where would Rake have been weakened if he had to take on Raest? Only possibly by the effect his soul had on Dragnipur and the burden Rake carries.

[Urizen]

 Silencer, on 15 October 2009 - 12:11 AM, said:

I just can't see any other reason for Raest to be a threat to Rake. Magically, he was taken down by Quick Ben and a Cusser. Rake is the Son of Darkness, and Archmage of the Tiste Andii. His soul lived through that, but had to be imprisoned in an Azath. And Dragnipur >>> Azath when it comes to taking souls. So where would Rake have been weakened if he had to take on Raest? Only possibly by the effect his soul had on Dragnipur and the burden Rake carries.

Yes Raest in the end got taken down by Quick Ben and a Cusser but that was after he had had an prolonged battle against Silanah and four other Soletaken Eleint plus I seem to remember that Derudan, one of the High Mages in the T'orrud Cabal, attacked Raest/Mammot at some point before QB and Hedge got involved. If Rake had taken on Raest when he first emerged from his barrow and was "fresh", Rake most likely would have had to use a lot of power to take Raest down.

[blackzoid]

 Silencer, on 15 October 2009 - 12:11 AM, said:

An demon who could destroy a city.
A Jaghut Tryant, who could enslave a continent and wake Burn on a whim. I believe your scale of reference is skewed, sir. We also did not see Rake's reaction to killing Pearl.
The Hounds were not an issue for him, but then again, they are not even comparable to a normal ascendant in terms of power, for the most part. Wild, bundled balls of energy, yes, but still not even a threat to Anomander or Osserc, despite the presence of Shadowthrone AND Cotillion.
Hood? Lord of Death, Jaghut of incomparable power and age - probably Gothos is his only comparable entity, outside of Rake himself. Yes, the souls were what really pushed him down, as we see from Draconus' perspective. However, Hood himself literally blasted the chaos in the sword backwards, as Rake did. That means he is powerful beyond anything else that has arrived in the sword. And in this case, one could safely assume that power = weight.

I just can't see any other reason for Raest to be a threat to Rake. Magically, he was taken down by Quick Ben and a Cusser. Rake is the Son of Darkness, and Archmage of the Tiste Andii. His soul lived through that, but had to be imprisoned in an Azath. And Dragnipur >>> Azath when it comes to taking souls. So where would Rake have been weakened if he had to take on Raest? Only possibly by the effect his soul had on Dragnipur and the burden Rake carries.

Conceeded on the Pearl power part, and I'd forgotten the Hounds death. But its not fair to assume that becasue Rake didn't really feel anything when killing the Hounds that therefore the Hounds are not comprarable to a "normal" Ascendent in terms of power. Thats backwards reasoning. They are listed as Ascendents after all in the glossary. Ya, I'd agree they are no Rake or Hood levels, but they are still powerful and can take a lot of pounding.
After killing the Hounds, Rake slid his sword home pretty swiftly. No sign of any discomfort.
The Pearl instance was the same as well, but he is no "offical" Ascendent after all, although Draconus considers him to have formidable willpower.

I'm not denying that the killing of an Ascendent would add some additional pressure/weight to the sword, but the phrase that only Hood and Rake have blasted the chaos backwards is dodgy reasoning. The simple fact is that no other Ascendents arrived in the sword when the forces of Chaos were visible on the plain. We have no frame of reference for the other chained Ascendents. They were chained when Chaos wasn't in sight of the wagon. We don't know. Probably they did each blast Chaos back a bit. But there is no proof. We can't therefore say that Hood was the most powerful thing to be chained in the sword up to that point. Thats a huge assumption. There is the obvious refrain of Draconus for example. And who knows what else?

Raest was a threat to Rake if he got to his finnest. Remember what he was doing to the 4 Soletaken and Silanh? that was before he got to it. If he had reunited with his Finnest and unleashed his magical barrage on Rake, Rake would have been hard pressed. Rake with Dragnipur seems to favour meleee fighting. Raest (sans Finnest of course) seems to favour magical duels. The getting in close to Raest while enduring his attacks is what would proabably weaken Rake the most, not the Dragnipuring.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 15 October 2009 - 09:27 AM

[Ulrik]

I agree. In weakening Anaomander I simply saw "unleash Raest and see what can SoD withstand". Anomander wasnt allmighty, his battles with Malazans was hard and if my memory is right, Moon´s Spawn had to retreat. So weakened Anomander may look crispy, bloodied, exhausted... Nothing sophisticated (haw could even malazans know effect of dragnipuring), just BANG HIM WITH TYRANT!

[Silencer]

Actually, Rake only had to retreat from a battle with four High Mages, including Tayschrenn, and the mage cadre because he could not protect the entire Moon - he himself was not pressed at all during that situation.

Now regards my point about Hood and the chaos, true - what we DO see is Draconus going "HOLY MOTHER FUCK WHO THE HELL HAS JUST ARRIVED IN THIS SWORD THIS IS AMAZING POWER LEVELZ". Paraphrased, obviously. Now, the Hounds are powerful, but they are, as individuals, not the kind of repositories we're talking about here. Consider that Tulas Shorn basically carries a couple of HoL's off with no problems, the biggest manifestation of Hound power we've seen is in BH, when they were freaked out, and smashed through a city wall. Which is...not that impressive, in terms of what we've seen.

I do admit, of course, that this is all conjecture, and there's plenty of evidence to be brought to bear for both sides. But Rake himself has always been a source of immense pressure when arriving anywhere by warren, and Hood's presence was described similarly when arriving in the sword. How many other characters have we seen with that?