[Binder of Demons]

Urizen, on 29 September 2009 - 06:46 PM, said:

Binder of Demons, on 29 September 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

The most likely option is the sword being essentially being known through it's association with Rake.

don't forget that Rake's own sword was known as Vengeance, and is now known as Grief due to it's being wielded by Dassem.

I feel a nitpick coming on..

It's not known what Rake called his sword, although at some point (Ereko in ROTCG?)it's implied that the sword was called Rage at some point then became Grief when Andarist wielded it and then became Vengeance when Traveller picked it up.

That's a very good nitpick, but it does kinda reaffirm the notion of a sword's name being changeable depending on the wielder (and hence Dragnipur being the association with Dragnipurake).

[Silencer]

You're both wrong. In HoC Andarist states that "it's maker named it Vengeance, [some Andii word] in our language. I call it [some Andii word]." "What does that mean? [Cutter]" "Grief".
So it was named Vengeance by Anomander, and when it passed to Andarist he called it Grief. When Traveller took it, he got to choose between names, and called it Vengeance.

However, Andarist also notes that it has 'many names'. Take for example Rake's visit to the Seguleh island. He gets called 'Blacksword'. I believe the implications of Ereko's quote in RotCG are that different opponents of the blade called it different things (can't see there being wielders between Rake and Andarist, can you?).

Anyway, Nitpicking over?

[haroos]

well, I have not yet read the 9th book, but in tth, one of the andii endest silahn thinks :
"Draconus, you thought you could give answer to all of us. You were wrong" and then thinking of rake "... until now here you stand, virtually alone"

and later the high priestess of dark thinks to mother dark : "Don't you see ? This was all Draconus's doing"

so maybe draconus made the sword for rake because he knew rake would be able to withstand the power of the sword.
there are a few other hints, but like these two the represent pov's, not neccsarily facts.

[amphibian]

haroos, on 29 September 2009 - 08:03 PM, said:

well, I have not yet read the 9th book, but in tth, one of the andii endest silahn thinks :
"Draconus, you thought you could give answer to all of us. You were wrong" and then thinking of rake "... until now here you stand, virtually alone"

and later the high priestess of dark thinks to mother dark : "Don't you see ? This was all Draconus's doing"

so maybe draconus made the sword for rake because he knew rake would be able to withstand the power of the sword.
there are a few other hints, but like these two the represent pov's, not neccsarily facts.

So then, when Draconus and Anomander fought... why didn't Draconus just give Anomander the sword instead of getting distracted by Envy and killed by Rake?

I'm not necessarily arguing that you're wrong - I'm saying your theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense as we currently understand events.

[Silencer]

There are certain implications that Draconus may have set it up - Mael in DoD comes to mind. But it's all speculation.

Oh, and I just practically headdesk'd onto a bed of nails.
Dragnipurake, last name of Anomander, Son of Darkness.
Dragnipur, name of the sword containing the gate to the warren of Darkness.

Pretty damn obvious, isn't it?

[haroos]

amphibian, on 29 September 2009 - 08:10 PM, said:

haroos, on 29 September 2009 - 08:03 PM, said:

well, I have not yet read the 9th book, but in tth, one of the andii endest silahn thinks :
"Draconus, you thought you could give answer to all of us. You were wrong" and then thinking of rake "... until now here you stand, virtually alone"

and later the high priestess of dark thinks to mother dark : "Don't you see ? This was all Draconus's doing"

so maybe draconus made the sword for rake because he knew rake would be able to withstand the power of the sword.
there are a few other hints, but like these two the represent pov's, not neccsarily facts.

So then, when Draconus and Anomander fought... why didn't Draconus just give Anomander the sword instead of getting distracted by Envy and killed by Rake?

I'm not necessarily arguing that you're wrong - I'm saying your theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense as we currently understand events.

maybe draconus didn't plan on dying in the process of giving the sword to rake, or maybe he was already addicted to the sword and his addiction led to his famed cruelty,
which led to rake having to face him and taking it from him.
and don't forget that kallor's curse on draconus changed the course of the sword as well.

however I think we can agree that rake took the swords many thousands of years after the whole "darkness turning aways from the andii's."

This post has been edited by haroos: 29 September 2009 - 08:21 PM

[Grief]

Silencer, on 29 September 2009 - 08:14 PM, said:

There are certain implications that Draconus may have set it up - Mael in DoD comes to mind. But it's all speculation.

Oh, and I just practically headdesk'd onto a bed of nails.
Dragnipurake, last name of Anomander, Son of Darkness.
Dragnipur, name of the sword containing the gate to the warren of Darkness.

Pretty damn obvious, isn't it?

Then why is Silchas not Dragnipuruin? And I don't think Andarist is confirmed with a last name.

A slightly different theory:

Dragnipur, as you say, contained MD.
So, what if Dragnipur was say a name/title of Mother Dark. It could be her name(also sort of fits with Draconus-whose name is similar as is his aspect). Draconus simply calls the sword Dragnipur because at the beginning of it's existance(before it contained other souls) it would have simply been mother Dark. It is a sword that embodies darkness.

If Dragnipur is Mother Darks name/title, then Dragnipurake could simply mean Son of Darkness-with the "ake" suffix added for Son.

On the other hand, it kind of makes little sense at all the whole "son" relation with MD involved, due to the naming of her other children. I feel the theory that the name of the sword came from Rake is best.

As for Draconus setting it up-it doesn't really make sense considering what we see from his POV.

This post has been edited by Grief: 29 September 2009 - 09:05 PM

[Silencer]

Preeeety much what I was saying, Grief. XD
The point is that the common link comes from Darkness - a sword containing MD, and the Son of Darkness, first born of MD.

Seriously, when I first thought of that I just went: How the shit did we miss that. Damn I'm an idiot.

[Grief]

Meh, similar but not the same. On the other hand, it still doesn't explain the other Andii.

After all, why Ruin? A very crazy theory: The word Ruin is andii or whatever for "light"-as Ruins skin is-and later became associated with how we know the word due to the destruction visited upon the andii by light.

Though I doubt SE thinks quite so much about things like that.

But yes, Dragnipur could simply mean Darkness. Which would make it Mother Darks name really in one language or another, since she is the embodiment of it.

[Grief]

I think Darkness could be the connection, but with only two things with the name (Rake and the Sword) then there are several possibilties. After all, it could simply mean "slayer" or something.

"I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, Dragnipurake. I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all."

The other thing that strikes me here is that the name seems to be said with some contempt. It is also the first time we see him called Dragnipurake-so I reckon that actually it's a name that means something contemptible-it's an insult of sort, branding him with a name, a reminder of what he has done.

Isn't dragnipur referred to somewhere as the "slayer of Dragons" or something similar. That could also be the connection, if the name is given to him as a result of him killing tiam/becoming her kin.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I can't think of the quote, but in MT, Feather Witch does her reading, and starts talking in another language... Which Udinaas understands, and there is also a word "purake" used I'm sure... So I'm guessing it is more dragon-tiam related than darkness.

*goes hunting*

[Silencer]

So, we're still at the basic assumption that either I'm right, and it's dragons or killing dragons, or I'm right, and it's darkness in some way? Sweet. XD

However, why would she say he is blood of Tiam, THEN Dragnipurake if it is something to do with Tiam? Dragonslayer, perhaps, and that would make it more of an insult - you are of Tiam's blood, you killed her. Thus also suggesting his betrayal of Andii blood. Hrm...

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Wheee, found.

"The Hold of the Dragon," Feather Witch said *snip* "Eleint Tiam purake setoram n'brael buras-

"Draconean words," Udinaas said, *snip* "Children of the Mother Tiam lost in all that they surrendered." More or less. The poetry suffers in translation-

Editing as now I said that I like the look of it so I'm ready to be pelted with tomatoes.

I think its lost to Dark. When Mother Dark is naming him that, its with scorn, and she then goes on for another three lines about how everyone is going to be bereft just because of him.

It also means its a simple language join up, not the sword named after the wielder, or vice versa.

Dragnipur, the sword, depending on which language you use thats either a harsher form or weaker reference to the fact its a sword holding Darkness lost within it, that radiates that fact. Or the sword name is just reflecting what it did "Lost Dark".

This post has been edited by Hellian's Keg Lid: 29 September 2009 - 09:58 PM

[Grief]

Silencer, on 29 September 2009 - 09:47 PM, said:

So, we're still at the basic assumption that either I'm right, and it's dragons or killing dragons, or I'm right, and it's darkness in some way? Sweet. XD

However, why would she say he is blood of Tiam, THEN Dragnipurake if it is something to do with Tiam? Dragonslayer, perhaps, and that would make it more of an insult - you are of Tiam's blood, you killed her. Thus also suggesting his betrayal of Andii blood. Hrm...

I think it's more an added insult. Anomander blood of Tiam, Dragnipurake. Dragnipurake sort of seems like an added insult-but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't mean something similar.
As for the darkness aspect, it doesn't seem to make sense now I consider the way it's said. I mean: I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, Son of Darkness, doesn't really work for me. The dragnipurake is definetely something contemptible in my opinion, and if you're forsaking them, why call them soemthing like "son of darkness" or whatever. Dragnipurake seems to be a title of some sort. It could just be an ancient title meaning something similar to blood of Tiam, with her just using it to emphasise her contempt-could just mean something like Soletaken Elent-if becoming one was held in contempt. Potential problem is that at that stage being of Tiams blood would not be around much so the chances of a term for it or something similar are small. So, dragon aspected insult(chaos-blood, Soletaken Elent(if they were held in contempt which is possible-Tiam isn't always described nicely) etc) could be possible.

It is certainly said with contempt-so describes something contemptible. HKLs post is interesting.

Children of the Mother Tiam lost in all that they surrendered
Eleint Tiam purake setoram n'brael buras

"Eleint Tiam" seems most likely to mean "children of the mother Tiam". Though this leaves an odd question. The Eleint are by definition Tiams Children, so why say "Eleint Tiam" rather than just "Eleint".

That aside it means Purakes meaning is most likely somewhere in "lost in all that they surrendered".

Now it can only really from there be "lost" or "surrendered".

Either can be possible in the context.

It could be as mentioned that Dragnipur means darkness-dragnipurake then being lost to darkness-which coming from mother dark would certainly be plausible. It kind of doesn't fit for me though because of how that would read:

I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, [lost to darkness]. I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all.

Where she says it just doesn't fit for me.

Lost to [some aspect of eleint] doesn't work for me either due to the fact he seems to have embraced it-so purake as "lost" doesn't seem to work to me.

So surrendered perhaps?

If so, the dragon aspect is more likely-surrendered to darkness just doesn't seem to work. Andarist accuses Rake of giving in to his chaotic blood in return for his youthful appearance, for not forsaking it as he, andarist, has. But what aspect of the Eleint could be surrendered too that Dragnipur also possesses. Well, the sword possesses the warren Chaos that pursues Darkness.

Which leaves us:

I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, [Surrendered to chaos(or something similar)]. I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all.

This works for me in some ways better. The surrendered to chaos refers back to what was said previously-that he has unleashed chaos-which makes more sense than giving him a title of "lost to darkness" before declaring him and the andii lost to her. Also if he is forsaken anyway, calling him lost to her doesn't seem to work. Just seems to come at the wrong part of the sentence to flow well for me.

So this leaves us dragnipur as:

Some aspect of the Eleint which can be surrendered to(they have several which it could be, I just used chaos as an example)
Darkness-which would probbaly be a simpler explanation but not one that works well for me personally due to the way it would make her speech read.

Edit: Apologies for the massive post which makes little sense-I had trouble trying to explain what I meant. It's late. I'm tired. I'll probably look back tommorow and think that what I said makes no sense and wonder what I meant.

This post has been edited by Grief: 29 September 2009 - 10:59 PM

[Silencer]

My link would read:
Eleint - Children of the Mother
Tiam
purake - lost

But that's based on the two words which we know. Though to me the use of Tiam is redundant, as Eleint are Tiam's children...

Anyway, the other thing is that Darkness is the wandering hold, so that would tie in with the lost thing. Nice find!

[Silencer]

Crosspost with Grief.

It could be Lost to Darkness - because he is of Tiam's blood, he is lost to her. Not said with contempt, but with sorrow. Anger, yes, but not contempt.

"Lost to [some aspect of eleint] doesn't work for me either due to the fact he seems to have embraced it-so purake as "lost" doesn't seem to work to me."
It could also be Lost to dragons: he is lost to the blood of Tiam, as in lost from Darkness.
It could also be Surrendered to Dragons.

Though they sound weird. Then again, Udinaas does say it translates over poorly. If we assume that there is not a direct correlation, it could sound much nicer.

Anomander, blood of Tiam, lost to Darkness.
Anomander, blood of Tiam, lost from Darkness.

I think you're taking "Lost to Darkness" too much in the sense of towards something. "He is lost to us" does not mean he has gone to us. It means he is gone FROM us.

[Grief]

Aye, but that's what doesn't read well for me.

Anomander, blood of tiam, Lost to darknes. You and the andii will have a generally shite time. You and the andii are now lost to me(darkness).

Ok, it's a terrible paraphrase, but it just doesn't work to me for her to call him "lost to darkness" earlier in the speech and then repeat herself like that-the writing just doesn't flow if you assume Dragnipurake means Lost to darkness.

[Silencer]

I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, [lost to darkness]. I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all.

But she doesn't repeat lost. She says her heart is closed to them. That's different, and encompasses the Andii as a race. A-and, don't forget "Eleint Tiam". THAT doesn't make sense either, both of us agree on that.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I was thinking more Lost in the context of exiled, sealed from, removed from, as posted above, not in the sense of you lost your way in the supermarket.

It would also explain why Andarist and Ruin don't have the name - they didn't bring this about. And we know Rake is the kind of awesomesauce who would just wear that and carry on about his day.

The first is personal to him, for what he has done.

I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, Dragnipurake.

Its a naming, like Silchas decided at random to call Scabandari Bloodeye, or Tool dumped Aral Fayle on Toc. So it marks what he has done, at that moment. What has been done, to him. You're not going to get a bang on hit with what the word means, but personally it has that flavour to me.


I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all.

Then she just carries on and forsakes everybody. Her speech, like K'rul, Nightchill, and Draconus to Kallor, is carrying the weight of what she's doing to all of them. Power in words and all that, its just extra salt in the wounds on Rake who has been personally forsaken already.

This post has been edited by Hellian's Keg Lid: 30 September 2009 - 10:22 AM

[Powder]

Rake fought the seguleh with dragnipur not vengence? That is why he is called black sword amongst them. Grief is described as being greyish blue in HoC.... sorry for the huge digression back to your regularly scheduled posting....