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#1 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 06:50 AM

Something I noted, in conjunction with a discussion I'm having with q21.

Anomandaris Dragnipurake.
First of all, does anyone get the feeling that his first name could have a 't' on the end? It's basically Andarist with Anom in front. And we know he shortens his second 'name' all the time...
Second of all, Dragnipurake. Clearly, there is a link to Dragnipur there. Or IS there? This is the real question, as I noticed in TTH:

Quote

"Anomander took his first step on to the stone stairs.

And was held there, as her voice filled them.

No. Be warned, Anomander, dear son, from Andii blood is born a new world. Understand me. You and your kin are no longer alone, no longer free to play your vicious games. There are now . . . others.

Anomander spoke. 'Mother, did you imagine I would be surprised? Horrified? It could never be enough, to be naught but a mother, to create with hands closed upon no one. To yield so much of yourself, only to find us your only reward - us slayers, us betrayers.'

There is new blood within you.

'Yes.'

My son, what have you done?

'Like you, Mother, I have chosen to embrace change. Yes, there are others now. I sense them. There will be wars between us, and so I shall unite the Andii. Resistance is ending. Andarist, Drethdenan, Vanut Degalla. Silchas is fleeing, and so too Hish Tulla and Manalle. Civil strife is now over, Mother.'

You have killed Tiam. My son, do you realize what you have begun? Silchas flees, yes, and where do you think he goes? And the newborn, the others, what scent will draw them now, what taste of chaotic power? Anomander, in murder you seek peace, and now the blood flows and there shall be no peace, not ever again.

I forsake you, Anomander blood of Tiam, Dragnipurake. I deny my first children all. You shall wander the realms, bereft of purpose. You deeds shall avail you nothing. Your lives shall spawn death unending. The Dark - my heart - is closed to you, closed to you all.

And, as Anomander stood unmoving, Endest Silann cried out behind him, falling to his knees in bruising collapse. A hand of power reached into him, tore something loose, then was gone - something, yes, that he would one day call by its name: Hope.

TtH, US TPB, p.111


Now, this is BEFORE Draconus makes the sword. We know this, because the sword is not yet made 100% in the prologue of RotCG, and in that they are not in Darkness any more, and Osserc is known to Draconus, which he would not have been prior to the break with Mother Dark depicted above. Yet, MD calls Anomander Dragnipurake. (THE TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT) Is this a discrepancy? Author slip? Or are the two names not connected?
We know that Rake's second name appears as Irake (MT), Ipurake (various), and Rake (GotM and almost all non-historical references) throughout the series. But part of that seems to be convenience.

Now, one thing I can think of is that Dragnipurake is something like "Dragons' blood" (as in: Anomander Dragonblood), and so MD bestows this name upon him when he slays Tiam. Now, Dragnipur is a shorter version, and if you take into account the drinking/slaying aspect, then Dragnipurake could be Dragon's blood drinker, while Dragnipur is dragon slayer (as is often the case, it's fair game to have a shorter or slightly altered version of a word with the same basic layout to have a quite different, contextual meaning, especially when it comes to fantasy languages). Hence, the two are related in that Dragnipur is primarily used, at least early on, to kill dragons and soletaken dragons, and Rake was the first to kill Tiam (of the Andii, at least, Olar Ethil possibly coming before him), who is the mother of dragons....

So, the question is basically: Dragnipurake - discrepancy in TTH, or simply a naming convention?
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#2 User is offline   dktorode 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:11 AM

The simple answer would be that maybe the sword Dragnipur only got that name after anomander started weilding it?
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:20 AM

View Postdktorode, on 28 September 2009 - 07:11 AM, said:

The simple answer would be that maybe the sword Dragnipur only got that name after anomander started weilding it?


I was thinking the exact same thing.

Also, all this naming business is going to do your head in. Sometimes I think Erikson deliberatly looks at what he's writting, a name, a historical event, and he twists it. Makes it deliberatly "wrong". Because history never makes perfect sense when you're working with several different and older sources.
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#4 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:30 AM

Aha. Tbh I hadn't thought of Dragnipur gaining it's name FROM Rake. Nice idea. Though...could Draconus have gone without naming it? Meh.

@Apt - perhaps that could go on your list of questions? XD
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#5 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:50 AM

View PostSilencer, on 28 September 2009 - 06:50 AM, said:



Now, one thing I can think of is that Dragnipurake is something like "Dragons' blood" (as in: Anomander Dragonblood), and so MD bestows this name upon him when he slays Tiam. Now, Dragnipur is a shorter version, and if you take into account the drinking/slaying aspect, then Dragnipurake could be Dragon's blood drinker, while Dragnipur is dragon slayer (as is often the case, it's fair game to have a shorter or slightly altered version of a word with the same basic layout to have a quite different, contextual meaning, especially when it comes to fantasy languages). Hence, the two are related in that Dragnipur is primarily used, at least early on, to kill dragons and soletaken dragons, and Rake was the first to kill Tiam (of the Andii, at least, Olar Ethil possibly coming before him), who is the mother of dragons....

So, the question is basically: Dragnipurake - discrepancy in TTH, or simply a naming convention?


I've always thought the above explanation makes most sense.
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#6 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:10 PM

[quote name='Silencer]Silchas is fleeing' date=' and so too Hish Tulla and Manalle. Civil strife is now over, Mother.'[/quote']
I was wondering if Hish Tulla could actually be Tulas Shorn...:D
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#7 User is offline   Powder 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:23 PM

I agree with teh above. Yet i would seek to broaden the discussion some. Perhaps it is a question of word divisions/connections. Is it Dragnipu rake? Is it Dragni purake? Is it Drag nipu rake? How you divide up the words that make up his name could give you some different options. Perhaps the reason people call him Rake is because they willfully wish to ignore the sword strapped to his back, even to the point of avoiding saying its name? (I feel as though the sword got its name from rake himself as it is a great extension of his personality)....
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#8 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:58 PM

Well, then the question becomes one that only the author's can answer - how far did they go in defining linguistic features of their world and it's people? With Tolkien you can quite easily (heheh) see the whole language coming together as he intended it. With SE, we do only have snippets and glimpses, done of which are concrete. And, once again, the whole thing is being shortened down and turned into English-approximation, which means that Dragnipurake could be just the start of a much longer title, no? XD
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#9 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 08:42 PM

[quote name='Hetan' date='28 September 2009 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1254165041' post='682058']
[quote name='Silencer]Silchas is fleeing' date=' and so too Hish Tulla and Manalle. Civil strife is now over, Mother.'[/quote']
I was wondering if Hish Tulla could actually be Tulas Shorn...:D
[/quote]

I doubt it, since Hish Tulla (and Manelle) are Tiste Andi and female while Tulas Shorn is Tiste Edur and (probably) male. Hish Tulla and Manelle are lumped in with Drethdenan and Vanut Degalla, Andii Lords of enough importance and power to challange the likes of Rake, Silchas and Andarist. I wouldn't mind if Hish Tulla or Manelle turns up in some future book as a leader for a colony of Tiste Andii
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#10 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:40 PM

Heh, I can certainly see them being talked about or involved in the Andii trilogy. And with Rake's death in the main sequence, if they're still alive the chance of the returning at his death is quite high, no? (Though I can't see SE introducing them in book 10. O.O)
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#11 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 12:59 AM

not to mention "kagamandra tulas shorn" is referenced as an edur who stood took up swords along with scabandari and "did not dream of peace"

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 29 September 2009 - 01:01 AM

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 01:41 AM

Didn't Draconus intend to make the sword with two goals?

1) To keep Mother Dark away from Chaos
2) To kill/remove the warring Eleint

The suffic "-pur" often refers to a place in the Middle East and South Asia. "Dragni-pur" might be the place where all dragons are supposed to go and "Dragni-purake" might be the source of many of those contentious dragons - as in Anomander briefly unlocked the choke point in the access to Tiam's blood.
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#13 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:38 AM

View PostSilencer, on 28 September 2009 - 10:40 PM, said:

Heh, I can certainly see them being talked about or involved in the Andii trilogy. And with Rake's death in the main sequence, if they're still alive the chance of the returning at his death is quite high, no? (Though I can't see SE introducing them in book 10. O.O)


Has it been confirmed that the Andii trilogy will be from the time before MD turned away?
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#14 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:45 AM

I don't believe so, but unless they are dead, they could be involved either way, and no matter what time period or status, they should be talked about, I'd imagine. Or hope. XD
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#15 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:59 AM

The reason I asked was because I felt the ending in DoD with regards to the Shake could be a set up for the Andii trilogy since I don't see how the Shake( or should it be Shore now?)in Kharkanas can tie into the Kolanese/Crippled God storyline that (presumably) will dominate the final book.
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Posted 29 September 2009 - 08:11 AM

Yeah, it could very well be. But to me, that would be the perfect reason to talk about those older characters: the Shake attempting to discover their history. It would be neat to have the trilogy deal with an almost then-and-now 'flashback' system, imo.
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#17 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 08:20 AM

[quote name='Urizen' date='28 September 2009 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1254170532' post='682112']
[quote name='Hetan' date='28 September 2009 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1254165041' post='682058']
[quote name='Silencer]Silchas is fleeing' date=' and so too Hish Tulla and Manalle. Civil strife is now over, Mother.'[/quote']
I was wondering if Hish Tulla could actually be Tulas Shorn...:D
[/quote]
[quote]
I doubt it, since Hish Tulla (and Manelle) are Tiste Andi and female while Tulas Shorn is Tiste Edur and (probably) male. Hish Tulla and Manelle are lumped in with Drethdenan and Vanut Degalla, Andii Lords of enough importance and power to challange the likes of Rake, Silchas and Andarist. I wouldn't mind if Hish Tulla or Manelle turns up in some future book as a leader for a colony of Tiste Andii
[/quote]

or Telorast and Curdle...
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#18 User is offline   Raatchi 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 03:21 PM

I like the idea that Drangipur is named after Anomander, I wouldn't have thought of that.

But can't it just be the case that MD can see some of what the future holds in store for her son?
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#19 User is offline   Binder of Demons 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 04:57 PM

The most likely option is the sword being essentially being known through it's association with Rake.

don't forget that Rake's own sword was known as Vengeance, and is now known as Grief due to it's being wielded by Dassem.

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#20 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:46 PM

View PostBinder of Demons, on 29 September 2009 - 04:57 PM, said:

The most likely option is the sword being essentially being known through it's association with Rake.

don't forget that Rake's own sword was known as Vengeance, and is now known as Grief due to it's being wielded by Dassem.


I feel a nitpick coming on.. :Oops:

It's not known what Rake called his sword, although at some point (Ereko in ROTCG?)it's implied that the sword was called Rage at some point then became Grief when Andarist wielded it and then became Vengeance when Traveller picked it up.
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