[Tehol]

Clip, on 28 November 2009 - 11:24 PM, said:

Tehol, on 26 November 2009 - 10:41 PM, said:

I think the evidence for Sinn being Fire aspected is quite overwhelming... this does not however mean that she cannot hold a 'death' aspect in the Deck of Dragons. There is ability and talent (fire) and then there is intent - death. She has shown a penchant for death and destruction for sure.

The problem I have with Sinn being fire-aspected is that she showed immense power at Y'ghatan, and not with fire, but against it. Now that can be taken as being magic related to fire, but again, the Nether (I think) said that she was killing the ice, I don't have the book, so I can't find the quote (hint hint), but it's there. Same with the ice.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

She blew up four sky keeps.

Simple power, doesn't need an aspect.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

And Grub tells her she is too good at using fire in the Azath, because he didn't even feel it.

Control of magic, affinity with magic, could have been an illusion.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

Fire is the death of ice.

Not the death of Jaghut ice, even Tellan couldn't defeat it (just found a way around it).

I can see that she has an affinity with fire, but she also is an incredibly powerful mage in her own right (since before Y'ghatan) so applying a simple aspect like fire to a person so complicated and powerful doesn't quite work in my mind.

Yes, Sinn was already powerful before Y'Ghatan - she was training to be a High Mage - or at least the 7 cities equivalent. Apprentice to Fayelle.

Being fire aspected or whatever dosn't mean that she is then a one-sided mage. She remains complex and powerful, and also has some strong relationship to fire, possibly even some kind of lead role in the new warrens.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Tehol, on 28 November 2009 - 12:42 AM, said:

Ben Adephon Delat, on 28 November 2009 - 12:14 AM, said:

The thing about Grubb I don't get is him being the First Sword now there's no rule against them being mages but generally speaking everyone we've seen has been a warrior of unmatched skill rather than a blast you with my warren type. I wouldn't mind if he was a mage in the assassin mage way [more assassin than mage] but he seems to be a proper one. I guess the Empire he serves will be significantly different from what it originally was

True true. There is that other thread, Swords of Wu maybe, that touches on the way often powerful ascendants prefer to use a sword rather than all out sorcery... maybe Grubb's ability with a sword develops (he has plenty of time) and he relies more on that than on his magic.

Of interest in Dessem.... who as Dassembrae is 'probably' a powerful magic user... but we've never seen that.

All very interesting.

Rake has millenia for his sword skills to become as formidable as his magery. In addition he tends to use hax swords like Grief/Vengeance and Dragnipur which boosts his sword skills with added power. Grubb is probably going to be first sword before he reaches some ripe old age so I doubt he'll be as good with a sword as he is with a spell unless he's a hella fast learner

[Tehol]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 29 November 2009 - 02:51 AM, said:

Tehol, on 28 November 2009 - 12:42 AM, said:

Ben Adephon Delat, on 28 November 2009 - 12:14 AM, said:

The thing about Grubb I don't get is him being the First Sword now there's no rule against them being mages but generally speaking everyone we've seen has been a warrior of unmatched skill rather than a blast you with my warren type. I wouldn't mind if he was a mage in the assassin mage way [more assassin than mage] but he seems to be a proper one. I guess the Empire he serves will be significantly different from what it originally was

True true. There is that other thread, Swords of Wu maybe, that touches on the way often powerful ascendants prefer to use a sword rather than all out sorcery... maybe Grubb's ability with a sword develops (he has plenty of time) and he relies more on that than on his magic.

Of interest in Dessem.... who as Dassembrae is 'probably' a powerful magic user... but we've never seen that.

All very interesting.

Rake has millenia for his sword skills to become as formidable as his magery. In addition he tends to use hax swords like Grief/Vengeance and Dragnipur which boosts his sword skills with added power. Grubb is probably going to be first sword before he reaches some ripe old age so I doubt he'll be as good with a sword as he is with a spell unless he's a hella fast learner

Ya, I agree Ben... but I guess it is worth considering that Grubb (from his first memories onwards) has grown up in an army, and not just as a camp follower, but in the tent of one of the fists. He has probably been privy to countless tactical conversations and meetings of commanders, as well as being around the constant training of the squads. Given the way I play with my own children, it is also very reasonable that many of the Malazan marines 'play fight' and teach him swordplay, as would be suitable for a young one (i.e. not overly brutal.... maybe). Although we do not see this happening from any POV - I think it would be safe to assume that this goes on.

I would say that this upbringing would be the perfect setting to develop a being with the qualities of a First Sword... at least so far. But hey, he's still so young....

And then, there are all the crazy possibilities such as he could get possessed by a god and learn that god's penultimate fighting skills before the god leaves him to fend for himself but with the memories and abilities of said god... stranger things have happened

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I can't see Grub just becoming a master swordsman sight unseen. I reckon the most likely thing that will occur is that an ascendant/god grants him an aspected sword. Let's face it, he's way too involved to just take a bunch of lessons and work his way up to First Sword.

[Clip]

A First Sword is just a title in the Malazan Empire, it means Commander of the Malazan Army. Although Dassem was a fighter and a swordsman, that doesn't mean that all future First Swords of the Malazan Empire have to be the same. After all, Dassem was the first First Sword of the Malazan Empire, after he dies the title was vacant, until now, with Korbolo Dom, and I can't see him leading from the front, or being a particularly brilliant swordsman.

This post has been edited by Clip: 29 November 2009 - 03:05 PM

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Korbolo Dom wasn't portrayed as a brilliant swordsman in RotCG but he did lead from the front. Korbolo probably viewed himself as a greater swordsman than he actually was.

[Hoods Balls]

Interesting thread. Sinn is sort of a mystery to me. Another piece of the puzzle is that Sinn had a Tanno Spiritwalker tutor when she was young (when ever that was). I think that definetely means something, especially when discussing the spirit aspects of Sinn.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Hoods Balls, on 03 December 2009 - 02:53 PM, said:

Interesting thread. Sinn is sort of a mystery to me. Another piece of the puzzle is that Sinn had a Tanno Spiritwalker tutor when she was young (when ever that was). I think that definetely means something, especially when discussing the spirit aspects of Sinn.

are you sure it was a spiritwalker? i'm pretty sure her tutor was fayelle, one of kamist reloes subordinates

[iRFNA]

Ain, on 29 November 2009 - 09:40 AM, said:

I can't see Grub just becoming a master swordsman sight unseen. I reckon the most likely thing that will occur is that an ascendant/god grants him an aspected sword. Let's face it, he's way too involved to just take a bunch of lessons and work his way up to First Sword.

I'd imagine his penchant for predicting the future seemingly at a whim could be quite useful in a swordfight, among his many other abilities.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

She talks to Grub about having a Tanno tutor during that whole conversation about drowning on wisdom in azath.

[Ulrik]

To case of First Sword. He is in first place High Commander of Malazan Army. Yes, he can use sword, he can fight in front rank, but Dassem, was special. Korbolo Dom is probably solid swordsman, but his title was rightful by his role as commander.

So Grubb doesnt have to superb swordsman. He MUST be tactician and strategist...and he grew in tent of Coltaine, was raised by Keneb and saw Tavore in work. He can learn to be solid swordsman like Whiskeyjack, but i think his main role is Commander. And in case of duel, well, not much sense of fairn play, but his  magic abilities... Hit him with earth!

[Sinisdar Toste]

Hellian, on 04 December 2009 - 09:52 AM, said:

She talks to Grub about having a Tanno tutor during that whole conversation about drowning on wisdom in azath.

ah ok, so she's had at least two tutors

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I think its more of an educational tutor re: Tanno one than Fayelle who kept her as a sorcerous apprentice/minion.

[Hetan]

Here's a quote regarding Sinn and whether or not she is aspected to fire - and I'm pretty sure from this that she is :-

Quote

I'll tell you who made me. An assassin named Kalam. He found me hiding with a bunch of bandits who were pretending to be rebels. He carved things on to my soul, and then he left. And then I was made a second time – I was added on to. At Y'Ghatan, where I found the fire that I took inside me, that now burns on and on like my very own sun. And after, there was Captain Faradan Sort, because she knew that I knew they were still alive – and I knew because the fire never went out – it was under the city, burning and burning. I knew – I could feel it." She stopped then, panting to catch her breath, her eyes wild as a wasp-stung cat's. (DoD)

There are quite a few other snippets from her conversations with Grub, for instance, inside the Azath where he comments to her that she can make fire talk and she replies with "I can make it shout too" - and his reply is "Loud enough to break the world, Sinn". So my thoughts on this is that primarily her warren was Mockra and at Y'Ghatan she was so worried about her brother that she found a way to control fire.

[mayhem]

Ulrik, on 04 December 2009 - 10:44 AM, said:

To case of First Sword. He is in first place High Commander of Malazan Army. Yes, he can use sword, he can fight in front rank, but Dassem, was special. Korbolo Dom is probably solid swordsman, but his title was rightful by his role as commander.

So Grubb doesnt have to superb swordsman. He MUST be tactician and strategist...and he grew in tent of Coltaine, was raised by Keneb and saw Tavore in work. He can learn to be solid swordsman like Whiskeyjack, but i think his main role is Commander. And in case of duel, well, not much sense of fairn play, but his magic abilities... Hit him with earth!

Here's a bit of wmg to throw out there.
Grub is Earth-aspected. What are the odds he ends up with Greymane's mysterious 'other' sword, which from memory is implied to involve Burn, and presumably Earth.

Grub then has experience of fighting around every major Malazan High Fist, plenty to get him a First Sword post, plus he then gets the aspected sword that Greymane has giving him even more bashybashy powers.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Grub isn't getting Greymane's sword. I mean, I guess its possible, but they do not know each other at all and have never crossed paths. The sword seems to be some sort of gift to Greymane from Burn. Grub does not have a relationship with Burn that we are aware of. The only time we see Grub use sorcery is after he and Sinn have traveled through the Azath and into Icarium's warrens. So the earth power that Grubb used was not Burn, but something new that Icarium had just created. So I don't think Grubb has any connection with Burn.

Also, Grub has experience with no Malazan High Fists. The closest he was to one was Pormqual in Aren at the end of the CoD, and I don't think he learned anything there. Coltaine was just a Fist (though obviously one of the best commanders we've seen) and Tavore is the Adjunct. Grub has never met Dujek or Dassem or Whiskeyjack or any of the Old Guard commanders.

[Torrud Segul]

do the fists in the 14th not count? his foster father was Fist Keneb after all? not to mention he's caught the eye of the adjunct as being a significant power? not to mention she's the sister of one of the few High Fists still around

[T'renn]

I hope we'll see something mindwhomping from him in CG, I mean, he has the potential to be a High Mage (he's equal to Sinn, or not ? I mean, he could counter her magic), and maybe, some other stuff as well. I think (and hope) that there will be a suitable remnant of the Bridgeburners left in the end, and that he will lead them back home (by warren or something.)

Him being First Sword will be very interesting. Will Mallick still be emperor then ?

Quote

Yes, Sinn was already powerful before Y'Ghatan - she was training to be a High Mage - or at least the 7 cities equivalent. Apprentice to Fayelle.

Being fire aspected or whatever dosn't mean that she is then a one-sided mage. She remains complex and powerful, and also has some strong relationship to fire, possibly even some kind of lead role in the new warrens.

I second this. Though for example most minor mages have only one warren, the stronger ones have more. All High mages mentioned had a strong aspect and secondary warrens. QB, main warren: His own, Meanas(1), with his illusions and shadows, while further having each and every warren accesible to humans(10) + presumumably Kurald Galayn (1). Tayschrenn is very strongly aspected to his High Telas, while also having Denul, Mockra, Thyr and possibly Serc. L'oric, Aspected to Kurald Liosan (or Thyrlann) and has Denul as well. And so on....

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 11 January 2010 - 12:01 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Torrud Segul, on 11 January 2010 - 07:50 AM, said:

do the fists in the 14th not count? his foster father was Fist Keneb after all? not to mention he's caught the eye of the adjunct as being a significant power? not to mention she's the sister of one of the few High Fists still around

Well the post I was responding to said High Fists. You can count Keneb if you want, but I believe he was a captain that got promoted out of necessity in Raraku when the Adjuncts old servant died (Gamet?). He has certainly never been thought of as a military genius. Even in the war games in Lether, Fiddler is the one that gives him the tactics that allow the malazans to surround the letherii. The Adjunct certainly is one I believe, although it might be tough to learn from someone that won't explain anything ever, ever her motives. And I assume you mean she is brother to Ganoes Paran? He is just a captain as well, though, perhaps he gets some sort of field promotion for having to assume command of the remnants of Onearm's Host.

[Blend]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 January 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:

Torrud Segul, on 11 January 2010 - 07:50 AM, said:

do the fists in the 14th not count? his foster father was Fist Keneb after all? not to mention he's caught the eye of the adjunct as being a significant power? not to mention she's the sister of one of the few High Fists still around

Well the post I was responding to said High Fists. You can count Keneb if you want, but I believe he was a captain that got promoted out of necessity in Raraku when the Adjuncts old servant died (Gamet?). He has certainly never been thought of as a military genius. Even in the war games in Lether, Fiddler is the one that gives him the tactics that allow the malazans to surround the letherii. The Adjunct certainly is one I believe, although it might be tough to learn from someone that won't explain anything ever, ever her motives. And I assume you mean she is brother to Ganoes Paran? He is just a captain as well, though, perhaps he gets some sort of field promotion for having to assume command of the remnants of Onearm's Host.

Well, you can almost be sure that each and every one of the "High Fists" you seem to be talking about were once "just captains" too... That's the reality of leading a host or army, the commanders sometimes die and get replaced. We don't hear everyone talking about the new ones as if they are legends because they have only recently been promoted... Legends aren't born overnight, they're created through years of work, sweat and blood. That doesn't really matter though.

What is being implied above is that Grubb could gain knowledge and expertise that would be useful as a first sword because he's constantly surrounded by the element he would be leading when he gets that position - namely, an army. Not just is he constantly surrounded by an army, he's spending most of his time with the Adjunct and the fists. Who cares where the fists came from, or what kind of expertise they have? They're still the people who are commanding some 10000 men and women, and so the men and women who have to deal with all the logistics, orders, etc... that the First Sword would eventually be responsible for. Just having been around when things like that are happening would be enough, who cares whether they're competent.

Next, comparing Fist Keneb, who was green to begin with and recently promoted because of Gamet's flight to crazyland, to someone like Dujek or Fiddler, who've spent their entire long lives soldiering, isn't fair. Of course Keneb won't have as much experience. The important thing for a Fist is to know where your strengths are. Even Dujek relied on Sergeant Whiskeyjack's opinion more often than not - despite the Empress constantly trying to kill him, bust him down, whatever... Fiddler is a legend. He's not just a Bridgeburner, he's the quintessential Bridgeburner. He's the bomb-diggity, and so Keneb (and even the Adjunct I might add) relies on his advice. It's pretty simple and what I would do if I were the Fist.