[Ben Adephon Delat]

That doesn't explain Grubb. Apparently he's the anthropomorphic personification of the Chain of Dogs but I hardly see how that translates into him being a powerful mage.

[prq]

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 November 2009 - 05:54 PM, said:

i think thats the idea behind the fire elemental, instead of it being born, sinn took it into herself as a force of raw power. instead of an ascendant being within her, she is becoming an ascendant in her own right

I find it acceptable that Sinn would so get the fire elemental's power, but on the other hand she did gain some conscience (evolving from the "simple mind"), and I don't think she'd have gotten that from the elemental.

And as someone else mentioned, similar happened to Grub.

[Tehol]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 19 November 2009 - 06:05 PM, said:

That doesn't explain Grubb. Apparently he's the anthropomorphic personification of the Chain of Dogs but I hardly see how that translates into him being a powerful mage.

My thoughts on that would be the nature of TCoD - where Sinn embodies fire - Grubb embodies land. TCoD crossed an entire continent, on foot, where the land was as harsh as the enemies pursuing them often as not.... and then there were the the magics involved, such as the Wickan Warlocks and the spirits of the land that rose up to devour an entire army or something like that.

In DoD we see Grubb's power to be complete control of land.

[Mezla PigDog]

Tehol, on 20 November 2009 - 09:50 PM, said:

In DoD we see Grubb's power to be complete control of land.

So maybe he will be able to help out Burn with the damage caused by the CG....

[Leigh1992]

didnt we find out in reaper's gale that the warren Mockra had a conciousness when it spoke to seren pedac and that grub was the unknowing mortal embodiment of Mockra kinda like Aranatha was the mortal embodiment of Mother dark?
also with sinn, all through RG and DoD she is described as realy thin and that no one has ever seen her eat anything? she is probably described as a runt because she is very small and due to nutrition hasnt continued growing like she should.

[Clip]

From the conversations between Grub and Sinn when they are alone we know that how they act around others is not their real personalities. Since all our descriptions of them come from others, we have to take their perceptions of Grub and Sinn into account. THey may be described as childlike not because of physical reality, but because that is the way the describer sees them.

The fact that they are, or rather were, fooling those around them into thinking that they were childish, or somehow 'not quite there' makes me think that they have something to hide. I believe that by the time they go into the Azath in Letheras they have already ascended. Their apparent level of knowledge and power seems unlikely to belong to your typical or atypical non-ascendant teenagers.

[Tehol]

I am of the opinion that Grubb & Sinn are indeed 2 members of the new pantheon of gods, the 'Grandchildren' - and not merely ascendants.
New Pantheon topic

I think that they may have held other positions in the old pantheon (amongst Mockra et al) but from now they are striking out into something completely new...

Just a thought.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Tehol, on 20 November 2009 - 09:50 PM, said:

Ben Adephon Delat, on 19 November 2009 - 06:05 PM, said:

That doesn't explain Grubb. Apparently he's the anthropomorphic personification of the Chain of Dogs but I hardly see how that translates into him being a powerful mage.

My thoughts on that would be the nature of TCoD - where Sinn embodies fire - Grubb embodies land. TCoD crossed an entire continent, on foot, where the land was as harsh as the enemies pursuing them often as not.... and then there were the the magics involved, such as the Wickan Warlocks and the spirits of the land that rose up to devour an entire army or something like that.

In DoD we see Grubb's power to be complete control of land.

On that basis I'd be fine with Grubb being a powerful warlock but he isn't one he's a mage. Sinn either became or absorbed a fire elemental while present at a humongous conflagration the likes of which is hardly ever seen so I can accept that. Simply walking over land no matter how harsh your journey shouldn't give you massive control of land because if that were the case then everyone in the Snake is going to wind up as strong as Grubb. The spirits of the land didn't really seem to be offering the CoD much help but assuming they did and I simply don't remember the spirits in question would be the Spirits of Seven Cities rather than land in general.

I'd find it more acceptable to say that Grubb due to his unique origin/experiences ended up with an affinity for the new warrens rather than the old warrens and so did Sinn. This works better than saying they absorbed spirits of the land or fire elementals because you'd have to ask why previous mages never tried to perform such an action to boost their power.

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 26 November 2009 - 11:44 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 26 November 2009 - 11:43 AM, said:

Tehol, on 20 November 2009 - 09:50 PM, said:

Ben Adephon Delat, on 19 November 2009 - 06:05 PM, said:

That doesn't explain Grubb. Apparently he's the anthropomorphic personification of the Chain of Dogs but I hardly see how that translates into him being a powerful mage.

My thoughts on that would be the nature of TCoD - where Sinn embodies fire - Grubb embodies land. TCoD crossed an entire continent, on foot, where the land was as harsh as the enemies pursuing them often as not.... and then there were the the magics involved, such as the Wickan Warlocks and the spirits of the land that rose up to devour an entire army or something like that.

In DoD we see Grubb's power to be complete control of land.

On that basis I'd be fine with Grubb being a powerful warlock but he isn't one he's a mage. Sinn either became or absorbed a fire elemental while present at a humongous conflagration the likes of which is hardly ever seen so I can accept that. Simply walking over land no matter how harsh your journey shouldn't give you massive control of land because if that were the case then everyone in the Snake is going to wind up as strong as Grubb. The spirits of the land didn't really seem to be offering the CoD much help but assuming they did and I simply don't remember the spirits in question would be the Spirits of Seven Cities rather than land in general.

I'd find it more acceptable to say that Grubb due to his unique origin/experiences ended up with an affinity for the new warrens rather than the old warrens and so did Sinn. This works better than saying they absorbed spirits of the land or fire elementals because you'd have to ask why previous mages never tried to perform such an action to boost their power.

mages have done this, QB springs to mind, granted not spirits of the land, but powerful spirits none the less. then theres the apocalyptic, dryjhna. she wrapped herself up in a bunch of spirits just through the force of her anger.

also sormo enath was constantly using spirits for aid on the chain of dogs, and none of those were the seven cities spirits, the spirits of "Seven Cities" are the deragoth. he called upon the older spirits, and for the sake of the argument we have to believe Grub somehow did the same. on that point, i don't neccesarily believe thats where his power has come from

[Clip]

Tehol, on 26 November 2009 - 09:19 AM, said:

I am of the opinion that Grubb & Sinn are indeed 2 members of the new pantheon of gods, the 'Grandchildren' - and not merely ascendants.]

I think that they may have held other positions in the old pantheon (amongst Mockra et al) but from now they are striking out into something completely new...

The thing is they already have positions in the original Deck of Dragons. Grub is Sceptre and Sinn is Virgin of High House Death. However, they have only recently filled said positions, so probably are recently ascended. Also, since they have no worshippers, they cannot really be called Gods, by the usual classification.

As to the nature of their power, where have we ever seen Sinn do anything fire-aspected. At Y'Ghatan she was killing the fire in a specific location (no mention of absorbing the elemental), on that prison island she was killing the ice. Sinn is death aspected, related to her position in the Deck. I'm not sure how Sceptre is aspected, but it seems to fit with total control of the land (ie a sceptre being a symbol of authority). Not sure what conclusions one can take from all this....

[Sinisdar Toste]

wow never thought of sinn as death aspected before, its an interesting angle on what she does with her sorcery.

i do want to mention thought, that while traversing the new warrens she tells grub that her "blood is on fire" and shoots a huge fireball at him. thats seems like she may have assumed the aspect of fire. Tehols New Pantheon thread has an interesting theory about her place in the new system. and the new system itself

[Clip]

Sinisdar Toste, on 26 November 2009 - 06:11 PM, said:

wow never thought of sinn as death aspected before, its an interesting angle on what she does with her sorcery.

i do want to mention thought, that while traversing the new warrens she tells grub that her "blood is on fire" and shoots a huge fireball at him. thats seems like she may have assumed the aspect of fire. Tehols New Pantheon thread has an interesting theory about her place in the new system. and the new system itself

I had forgotten about that scene. Does seem to jar with her being death aspected.

I suppose that could mean either filled with power, or adolescence (she is a teenager), and along those lines, teens going through puberty often strike out at their object of desire...

Apart from that, both times Sinn has displayed extrodanary power (against fire elemental and sorcery filled ice, other mages nearby have said that she was killing the fire/ice.

This post has been edited by Clip: 26 November 2009 - 06:17 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

She blew up four sky keeps. And Grub tells her she is too good at using fire in the Azath, because he didn't even feel it. Fire is the death of ice.

Edit to add: Lots of characters have been given roles in the Decks of Dragons, they change depending on what they're up to - doesn't always mean they have a place in that particular House.

This post has been edited by Hellian's Keg Lid: 26 November 2009 - 08:26 PM

[Tehol]

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

She blew up four sky keeps. And Grub tells her she is too good at using fire in the Azath, because he didn't even feel it. Fire is the death of ice.

Edit to add: Lots of characters have been given roles in the Decks of Dragons, they change depending on what they're up to - doesn't always mean they have a place in that particular House.

Agree. The positions change quite often, and the positions held in the pantheon are different from being assigned an aspect from the cards in a reading.

I think the evidence for Sinn being Fire aspected is quite overwhelming... this does not however mean that she cannot hold a 'death' aspect in the Deck of Dragons. There is ability and talent (fire) and then there is intent - death. She has shown a penchant for death and destruction for sure.

Ben Adephon Delat said:

On that basis I'd be fine with Grubb being a powerful warlock but he isn't one he's a mage. Sinn either became or absorbed a fire elemental while present at a humongous conflagration the likes of which is hardly ever seen so I can accept that. Simply walking over land no matter how harsh your journey shouldn't give you massive control of land because if that were the case then everyone in the Snake is going to wind up as strong as Grubb. The spirits of the land didn't really seem to be offering the CoD much help but assuming they did and I simply don't remember the spirits in question would be the Spirits of Seven Cities rather than land in general.

I'd find it more acceptable to say that Grubb due to his unique origin/experiences ended up with an affinity for the new warrens rather than the old warrens and so did Sinn. This works better than saying they absorbed spirits of the land or fire elementals because you'd have to ask why previous mages never tried to perform such an action to boost their power.

It is not the act of walking itself - it was the Chain of Dogs that spawned Grubb. My comment was in reference to the fact that the Chain of Dogs was an overland journey - on foot - therefor very connected with the land as far as a major event goes, in the same way as Y'Ghatan was very connected with Fire. So, not every mage will gain power over land by going for a walk. Of course not, that would be ridiculous. What we do know is that really major events, such as Pale (Silverfox), Black Coral (The Redeemer), Y'Ghatan (Sinn) and the Chain of Dogs (Gubb) have the ability to spawn incarnations of those events.

In terms of Grubb's and Sinn's relationship to the new warrens... I think that as 'children' they are the most adaptable magic users, they are able to learn new ways more easily, in the manner of children of our world being able to easily learn several languages where adults often struggle, or take a lot longer. That they may be new godlings is just a theory.

Quote

(Mael:) "You would devour our children, but even that desire proves that you have lost touch, that you - we, all of us here - are nothing more than the spent forces of history. Errant, our children have grown up. Do you understand the significance of that?"
"What stupitiy are you –"
"Old enough," cut in Sechul Lath, all at once comprehending, "to have children of their own" Abyss below! - (DoD p.531)

And we know that Icarium is the creator of the new 'warrens', and that Grubb and Sinn were exploring his Warrens on their way to the final battle in DoD...

Badalle says at the end of her poem, speaking of Grubb, Sinn, Rutt Held and herself,

Quote

'Heal the would, God (Icarium)
Your children are close–'

There are more quotes pointing to the theory that Sinn and Grubb are now godlings which I can dig out...

[Ben Adephon Delat]

I wasn't simply referring to a leisurely stroll I was referring to a torturous journey. The Snake isn't facing armies but they're certainly undergoing as much if not more suffering than the Chain of Dogs. Anyway since you seem to be agreeing with my point that due to factors such as age or unique experiences/perspective they have a greater affinity for the new warrens over the old ones then I don't really see any point of contention

[Tehol]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 27 November 2009 - 08:43 AM, said:

I wasn't simply referring to a leisurely stroll I was referring to a torturous journey. The Snake isn't facing armies but they're certainly undergoing as much if not more suffering than the Chain of Dogs. Anyway since you seem to be agreeing with my point that due to factors such as age or unique experiences/perspective they have a greater affinity for the new warrens over the old ones then I don't really see any point of contention

Yeah, I agree with you, I was just clarifying what I meant in the earlier post. And I also agree that the Snake's journey has been just as harrowing, in its own way. It seems that Rutt, Held, Badalle and Saddic are the main figures 'absorbing' the experience... certainly from the written perspective anyhow.

I love this line by Badalle:

DoD p.564 said:

'...The Quitters have questions
But we are the eaters
Of answers.'

This post has been edited by Tehol: 27 November 2009 - 10:04 AM

[Ben Adephon Delat]

The thing about Grubb I don't get is him being the First Sword now there's no rule against them being mages but generally speaking everyone we've seen has been a warrior of unmatched skill rather than a blast you with my warren type. I wouldn't mind if he was a mage in the assassin mage way [more assassin than mage] but he seems to be a proper one. I guess the Empire he serves will be significantly different from what it originally was

[Tehol]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 28 November 2009 - 12:14 AM, said:

The thing about Grubb I don't get is him being the First Sword now there's no rule against them being mages but generally speaking everyone we've seen has been a warrior of unmatched skill rather than a blast you with my warren type. I wouldn't mind if he was a mage in the assassin mage way [more assassin than mage] but he seems to be a proper one. I guess the Empire he serves will be significantly different from what it originally was

True true. There is that other thread, Swords of Wu maybe, that touches on the way often powerful ascendants prefer to use a sword rather than all out sorcery... maybe Grubb's ability with a sword develops (he has plenty of time) and he relies more on that than on his magic.

Of interest in Dessem.... who as Dassembrae is 'probably' a powerful magic user... but we've never seen that.

All very interesting.

[Clip]

Tehol, on 26 November 2009 - 10:41 PM, said:

I think the evidence for Sinn being Fire aspected is quite overwhelming... this does not however mean that she cannot hold a 'death' aspect in the Deck of Dragons. There is ability and talent (fire) and then there is intent - death. She has shown a penchant for death and destruction for sure.

The problem I have with Sinn being fire-aspected is that she showed immense power at Y'ghatan, and not with fire, but against it. Now that can be taken as being magic related to fire, but again, the Nether (I think) said that she was killing the ice, I don't have the book, so I can't find the quote (hint hint), but it's there. Same with the ice.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

She blew up four sky keeps.

Simple power, doesn't need an aspect.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

And Grub tells her she is too good at using fire in the Azath, because he didn't even feel it.

Control of magic, affinity with magic, could have been an illusion.

Hellian, on 26 November 2009 - 08:25 PM, said:

Fire is the death of ice.

Not the death of Jaghut ice, even Tellan couldn't defeat it (just found a way around it).

I can see that she has an affinity with fire, but she also is an incredibly powerful mage in her own right (since before Y'ghatan) so applying a simple aspect like fire to a person so complicated and powerful doesn't quite work in my mind.

This post has been edited by Clip: 28 November 2009 - 11:25 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I came away with the impression she simply likes destroying things, and you rarely see her work with anything else... Whether you say she uses it/negates it, two sides of the same coin. I don't doubt either she can use more than that, but favours it.