[Path-Shaper]

more boozing tonight peoples. will be back on in the morning.

[alt146]

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

[HoosierDaddy]

Lol, I can prove my not vigging quite easily. But keep on voting, someone scummy will jump on the bandwagon.

[alt146]

HoosierDaddy, on 12 September 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

Lol, I can prove my not vigging quite easily. But keep on voting, someone scummy will jump on the bandwagon.

I assume you would do so by day vigging? It wouldnt CI you, but it would prove you were telling the truth. It's tricky though - the fact that we dont get a CF means it doesn't actually give us all that much information.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes, but seeing as how I'm innocent, anyone jumping on the case at this point is scum to me. The refusal to believe the two separate killers possibility is just bad news.

[alt146]

HoosierDaddy, on 12 September 2009 - 09:08 PM, said:

Yes, but seeing as how I'm innocent, anyone jumping on the case at this point is scum to me. The refusal to believe the two separate killers possibility is just bad news.

I believe not looking at all the different possibilities is bad news. If there are two killers then either Silencer is scum or was targetted by one. So I'm taking the possibility into account and if something convinces me that there are in fact two scum kills I would be looking at Silencer as my chief suspect. And if you could prove your vig without it possibly losing the game for us I would be looking at Hinter or Silencer, as one of them would have had to have lied. At the moment though the simplest solution in my mind is that you lied and I have placed my vote accordingly.

[Tapper]

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Actually, a killer targeting a guard makes sense, I'd say - a guard is pretty dangerous. We're lucky that they in all likelyhood (in the wcs scenario) targeted a guard that was being healed. I still think the two-seperate-kills-scenario is the most likely. We haven't had any luck whatsoever with figuring out what kind of killers we face, and it is going to be tough to say who is trying to mislead whom without a CF. We were facing the same issue yesterday, with largely the same camps - HD, Hinter voting for you; Silencer, you, me keeping an eye open to the shared-kill-option in varying degrees. We need to break that impasse.

The whole stuff with the missed NA submission, whether truly an accident or not, is not helping you at this point and opens a can of WIFOM as I said before, and HD made a pretty comprehensive case on you, too. I'll hold my vote for a while but I'm starting to think that we may be better off knowing your CF. If you come up as inno, then Hinter and HD imho need a much, much closer look.

Basically, what is holding me back from voting so that we can get a CF we can deduce info from, is that we're at 7 alive and there are at the least 2 scum alive, potentially 3 - bad lynch and we could lose. I dare not gamble that PB was the symp or that scum screwed up and killed one of their own just to get information.

[Tapper]

HoosierDaddy, on 12 September 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

Lol, I can prove my not vigging quite easily.

Yeah, and what are the risks if you're wrong? You'd have proven you still can vig but lose us the game. At this point, I'd rather be in doubt whether or not you vigged than having it confirmed and then straightaway get the password to SH dropped on thread. For someone who is constantly going on about wcs you're remarably cavalier on this particular point.

[HoosierDaddy]

Agreed. But, say you had a vig and thought you were getting trained by scum. Do you take a shot at the scum or do you just whimper and die?

[alt146]

Tapper, on 12 September 2009 - 09:21 PM, said:

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Actually, a killer targeting a guard makes sense, I'd say - a guard is pretty dangerous. We're lucky that they in all likelyhood (in the wcs scenario) targeted a guard that was being healed. I still think the two-seperate-kills-scenario is the most likely. We haven't had any luck whatsoever with figuring out what kind of killers we face, and it is going to be tough to say who is trying to mislead whom without a CF. We were facing the same issue yesterday, with largely the same camps - HD, Hinter voting for you; Silencer, you, me keeping an eye open to the shared-kill-option in varying degrees. We need to break that impasse.

The whole stuff with the missed NA submission, whether truly an accident or not, is not helping you at this point and opens a can of WIFOM as I said before, and HD made a pretty comprehensive case on you, too. I'll hold my vote for a while but I'm starting to think that we may be better off knowing your CF. If you come up as inno, then Hinter and HD imho need a much, much closer look.

Basically, what is holding me back from voting so that we can get a CF we can deduce info from, is that we're at 7 alive and there are at the least 2 scum alive, potentially 3 - bad lynch and we could lose. I dare not gamble that PB was the symp or that scum screwed up and killed one of their own just to get information.

True enough, it's not impossible someone could have targetted Silencer.

Like I said, I told the truth. I understand it raises WIFOM, but I wasnt going to lie about what happened.

Lynching badly will likely lose the game, even if there's just one kill we cant be sure the symp is dead. The fact that we have two guards and three healers left means we have a slightly better than normal chance of surviving the night, but it's not something we can depend on.

[Tapper]

HoosierDaddy, on 12 September 2009 - 09:28 PM, said:

Agreed. But, say you had a vig and thought you were getting trained by scum. Do you take a shot at the scum or do you just whimper and die?

'Whimper and die' sounds like you're a sissy if you fail to use the vig, as if you've lost your balls. If you go at mafia like fucking Lee van Cleef, you're going to fuck up unless you're a symp or a daring vocal scum. As town, it is generally much better to avoid distractions and testosterone. and your wording hints at the last.

As for using the vig: depends entirely on the situation. The basic thing about a vig for town during an impasse is this: the lynch is caused by a majority, albeit a majority that contains scum and can be steered and manipulated and dead wrong. A vig is a single individuals prerogative. That individual can thus ignore the majority and still get a CF. He however can also be steered, manipulated and dead wrong and rather than a full train, the debate is largely with his own thoughts rather than with other people, and in a debate with yourself, you're usually horribly biased .

When I design a game, I constantly need to tone down on the vigs cause we at Malaz are so god-damned triggerhappy. We see a vig largely as a must-use ability, often used at the first available opportunity, and often to make a (minor) point. Imho, a vig should be played like an RI. You're one, essentially, with a one shot option that is powerful, but often not vital and can do serious harm to the town. It is definately not important enough to lay low for in an alted game with the roles unknown.

If you haven't vigged yet, you've shown more restraint than most would, but we're now on what appears to be d-day, and were I in your shoes, I would not use it. Simply put: you use it now and you're wrong, and we might lose immediately. You use it during the day and we won't even know if you hit an inno/symp or a killer, which, seeing the discussion we're having for the past 2 days, is pretty vital info cause from that we can deduce what we are facing and how to interprete the morning news by the Dibs Broadcasting Company.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 12 September 2009 - 09:50 PM

[Hinter]

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Why would you make it up? This is Mafia and if you are scum its your job to confuse and confound us before you kill us!

As for jumping over trains, I've been completely consistent in voicing my disquiet with you since day 1. The fact that others are also seeing you as a wrong 'un reinforces my initioal opinion, hence my vote.

Tapper, on 12 September 2009 - 09:21 PM, said:

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Actually, a killer targeting a guard makes sense, I'd say - a guard is pretty dangerous. We're lucky that they in all likelyhood (in the wcs scenario) targeted a guard that was being healed. I still think the two-seperate-kills-scenario is the most likely. We haven't had any luck whatsoever with figuring out what kind of killers we face, and it is going to be tough to say who is trying to mislead whom without a CF. We were facing the same issue yesterday, with largely the same camps - HD, Hinter voting for you; Silencer, you, me keeping an eye open to the shared-kill-option in varying degrees. We need to break that impasse.

The whole stuff with the missed NA submission, whether truly an accident or not, is not helping you at this point and opens a can of WIFOM as I said before, and HD made a pretty comprehensive case on you, too. I'll hold my vote for a while but I'm starting to think that we may be better off knowing your CF. If you come up as inno, then Hinter and HD imho need a much, much closer look.

Basically, what is holding me back from voting so that we can get a CF we can deduce info from, is that we're at 7 alive and there are at the least 2 scum alive, potentially 3 - bad lynch and we could lose. I dare not gamble that PB was the symp or that scum screwed up and killed one of their own just to get information.

So do it, vote! At least we will get a much needed breakthrough in this game. If (and its a big if imo) Alt is CF'ed inno you can look at me and HD, but because I have nothing to hide I am encouraging you to just do it!!!

[Tapper]

Hinter, on 12 September 2009 - 09:53 PM, said:

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Why would you make it up? This is Mafia and if you are scum its your job to confuse and confound us before you kill us!

As for jumping over trains, I've been completely consistent in voicing my disquiet with you since day 1. The fact that others are also seeing you as a wrong 'un reinforces my initioal opinion, hence my vote.

Tapper, on 12 September 2009 - 09:21 PM, said:

alt146, on 12 September 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

Finally back.

I dont see how what I said is scummy. It's what happened. I first thought I had been guarded so I confirmed with PS before I accused one of the guards of lying, but it turned out he just didnt get my provisional. Why would I make something like that up?

What is interesting is that unless a killer targetted Silencer, or Silencer is a killer there cant have been two separate scum kills. Something that I've been doubtful of all game.

Looking back on night one with that in mind I would think HD lied about not vigging. He's been pushing the two scum kills thing hard and constantly going on about his innocence. I think one of the other people that have jumped all over the train on me
could be either a partner or the symp. Most likely Hinter.

Which means I'm going to

vote HD

Actually, a killer targeting a guard makes sense, I'd say - a guard is pretty dangerous. We're lucky that they in all likelyhood (in the wcs scenario) targeted a guard that was being healed. I still think the two-seperate-kills-scenario is the most likely. We haven't had any luck whatsoever with figuring out what kind of killers we face, and it is going to be tough to say who is trying to mislead whom without a CF. We were facing the same issue yesterday, with largely the same camps - HD, Hinter voting for you; Silencer, you, me keeping an eye open to the shared-kill-option in varying degrees. We need to break that impasse.

The whole stuff with the missed NA submission, whether truly an accident or not, is not helping you at this point and opens a can of WIFOM as I said before, and HD made a pretty comprehensive case on you, too. I'll hold my vote for a while but I'm starting to think that we may be better off knowing your CF. If you come up as inno, then Hinter and HD imho need a much, much closer look.

Basically, what is holding me back from voting so that we can get a CF we can deduce info from, is that we're at 7 alive and there are at the least 2 scum alive, potentially 3 - bad lynch and we could lose. I dare not gamble that PB was the symp or that scum screwed up and killed one of their own just to get information.

So do it, vote! At least we will get a much needed breakthrough in this game. If (and its a big if imo) Alt is CF'ed inno you can look at me and HD, but because I have nothing to hide I am encouraging you to just do it!!!

Yeah, but... look at the following:

- if i vote we're on L-1
- we're on what might be D-day
- the only people online are the votees and the voted
- MTS was drunkenish this afternoon and I think hasn't read the thread at 100% attention at that time
- I'm not sure everyone has gotten their NAs in.

[Tapper]

Anyways, I'm off to bed. Should be back in 8 hours or so, maybe a bit more.

[Silencer]

You do realize both Hinter and HD are encouraging people to vote, and HD is trying to hold the threat of a vig over people's heads? I seem to recall a game, namely LOST, where a certain character attempted to hold things over the heads of the other characters. Got him butt-raped pretty darn quick. I don't like it, and if I wasn't already voting for HD I would be now.

[HoosierDaddy]

I've encouraged people to play. Encouraging people to vote makes them take a stand. You'll note I haven't voted for anyone yet, today, seeing as how it's important to lynch right. I don't know why you have a hard on for me, but whatever.

Edit: Well, I've played a bad game, but jesus. If I was scum this would be the worst game ever played by one.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 12 September 2009 - 10:13 PM

[Tapper]

Silencer, on 12 September 2009 - 10:10 PM, said:

You do realize both Hinter and HD are encouraging people to vote, and HD is trying to hold the threat of a vig over people's heads? I seem to recall a game, namely LOST, where a certain character attempted to hold things over the heads of the other characters. Got him butt-raped pretty darn quick. I don't like it, and if I wasn't already voting for HD I would be now.

I realize that. However, voting against them for that is purely petty factionalism that we can't have at this time. I'll vote for someone who I believe is the most likely to be scum AND to yield good game info at this point, and while I dislike the way HD flaunts his vig (see a few posts up), and while I agree that he and Hinter both have been very eager to mention they are inno, that they ahve worked together today and yesterday in votes and cases and that especially HD has been skirting the edge of scummy play today, one thing is holding me back. If HD is scum, why does he no day-vig? Now seems the time for a scum to do that.

That, and alts lynch will make things more clear than lynching HD or Hinter since they're so buddy-buddy - one could be another's symp, whereas alt, if he is scum, probably is proper killer scum.

I'll think one hour more, than I'll cast my vote. Way things are now, it is going to go on alt.

Also, I'm somewhat disappointed that next to no-one posted for the past 8 hours, but meh, that's life.

[Silencer]

One lynch + one NK gives us five, if there is only one killer, or two separate killers, then HD still wouldn't want to use his vig, as that would not be possible for them to win. Especially as after the lynch (six players), with two guards still alive...they're pretty fucked for getting two NK's in, right?

The only way he'd want to use his vig was if it ended day, and if he was in a partnership that knew their symp was still alive.

[Hinter]

Oh yes, I've been encouraging people to vote. We've been tippy-toeing about in this game achieving sweet FA while scum have been quite happily killing us off. Our major offensive weopon is lynching and yet we've not managed one so far because people are unwilling to commit.

As for HD and I being so buddy buddy - the only similarity between us that I can see is that we've both stated our opinions and voted accordingly, whilst everyone else seems to be talking a lot but not actually doing much.

[Silencer]

Silencer's lawyers would like to point out that he has voted, and has in fact had a vote on since the start of this morning. Thank you.