[Tapper]

Mappo, on 23 September 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

Gu'Rull was the first to have wings? I don't remember a mention of this. Could you provide a quote?

The idea I got from that section, from Gunth Mag's transformance to function as a mount for the KCCM Destriant and from the excrement shovelling drone transforming itself into a different sort of worker bee in the Icarium Hive, was that KCCM can alter their gene structure/ body by themselves according to their own needs, possibly within a given limit according to their caste or original purpose.

A Shi'gal growing wings and a new set of eyes for an outdoors mission would thus be perfectly acceptable even without the matron doing anything to allow it, he is after all expected to be the ultimate killing machine.

It seems likely that this is mostly allowed for drones, who may have to become matrons, workers who may have to alter themselves to multi-task according to the hive's need and the assassins - soldiers/ hunters are soldiers and hunters and only have the task of killing.

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 26 October 2009 - 10:28 PM, said:

so, the FAs won the just wars and took Liosan women as the prize? or was it the other way around?

Iirc, the 'Judgment Wars' involved the FA and Liosan, so there could be some inter-species sheboingy happening either way.

amphibian, on 27 October 2009 - 02:05 AM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 25 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

Quote

"The mystery is, there's at least three in there I can't even identify. A woman, a girl and some bearded bastard who feels close enough to spit on.

Olar Ethil?

I can't remember - did she have a beard?

Hetan, on 27 October 2009 - 07:24 AM, said:

I'd agree with Kalyth and Setoc, however would QB not know Ruthan Gudd? Although the fact that he is close enough to spit certainly suggests he's the best candidate.

And just for good measure, as he's riding to his 'death' against the KN, Gudd acknowledges QB in his internal monologue, something like 'Quick ben, how long can you hide'...

Tapper, on 27 October 2009 - 12:38 PM, said:

Mappo, on 23 September 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

Gu'Rull was the first to have wings? I don't remember a mention of this. Could you provide a quote?

The idea I got from that section, from Gunth Mag's transformance to function as a mount for the KCCM Destriant and from the excrement shovelling drone transforming itself into a different sort of worker bee in the Icarium Hive, was that KCCM can alter their gene structure/ body by themselves according to their own needs, possibly within a given limit according to their caste or original purpose...

Either upthread or elsethread it's been noted that QB takes one look at the Stormy/Gesler abduction scene and guesses it's a Shigal because they can fly two thousand leagues or something... point being QB already knows the Shigal can do this, so Gurull can't be the first, tho he may have been the first at that particular Uprooted, hence no one there knew about it til the Matron 'discovered' it.


- Abyss, discovered the question mark?

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 27 October 2009 - 01:36 PM, said:

Either upthread or elsethread it's been noted that QB takes one look at the Stormy/Gesler abduction scene and guesses it's a Shigal because they can fly two thousand leagues or something... point being QB already knows the Shigal can do this, so Gurull can't be the first, tho he may have been the first at that particular Uprooted, hence no one there knew about it til the Matron 'discovered' it.

I'm telling you - Quick Ben peeled off one of his souls and left it with the skykeeps from The Bonehunters for years. That's what the pebbles are - anchors for one of his souls. This is definitely a crazy theory, but it may explain his knowledge of current events which he shouldn't know.

[Animace]

Hey there guys, I'm new to the forums but just finished reading DoD and subsequently this thread

Some of my random musings, in relation to theories already proposed and some of my own.

1. The snake - This is just a thought that springs to mind, but when Twilight and The Watch are discussing the true shore, I believe there is some mention of the Liosan suffering due to the turning away of Father Light, and being lesser than they were or some kind of perversion. My thought is that Kolanse is a nation of mixed FA, Liosan and Human origins, with the Inquisitors a more purer strain of FA, and the snake the last remains of a more Liosan influenced human population.

Page 654 UK Bantam Press, Badalle - "But it was not the Quitters that cut down our world. They only came in answer to the death of our gods - our faith - when the rains stopped, when the last green withered and died. They came in answer to our prayers. Save us! Save us from ourselves!"

To me, this draws a parallel to the Shake in that Liosan warren that was baking itself dry, and the absence of Liosan gods (After all, the stand in demon Osserc placed was killed).


This ties into my next point - The Liosan are known for their arrogance and scorn for everything lesser, and the Inquisitors seem to me as FA with a Liosan skew on their thinking. Also in this favor is the Inquisitor POV that there power is the Holy Fire or Holy word or some such. They draw alot of similarities to the Children of Light in the Wheel of Time series, in my mind.

This is till a random suggestion though.

2. Badalle - Part Liosan? Would explain the fascination with fire. My theory on Badalles power however, is that she has some kind of latent talent that gets brought out by the hardship, and then untrained her mind is attracted like a moth to a flame with all the Ascendant powers wandering around the wasteland, and she begins soaking up power from all the residual energies floating around.


I have some more floating around in my head, will try to construct them better and post them soon.

Great post Abyss,

also, Hai Guyz

[Abyss]

Animace, on 29 October 2009 - 05:34 PM, said:

Hey there guys, I'm new to the forums but just finished reading DoD and subsequently this thread ...also, Hai Guyz

Solid first post rep delivered. Welcome - be sure to visit the Introduction Thread.


There is a history to the FA and Liosan that allows for this... iirc, the Judgment Wars. I like the notion that everyone was mixed blood but the Invigilators were more FA in body but Liosan in nature.

The Liosan element to all of this remains unclear - we have the squad that the Watch took out and the curious attack by the Forces of 'Light' in TtH, plus the revelation in TtH that at some point the Liosan went to war against the Andii.

On the other hand we have the FA warren coming into play, FA guarding warrens almost at random, and strong suggestions that the Snake and/or Invigilators have an FA element to them.

Hmmm...

- Abyss, ...strainzing the thinkymeats to tie it all together...

[Theotendo]

The question on the cards dealt and their possible meanings would be a lot easier to answer if we had a clearer concept of what each card meant. Yes, there are occupied roles in the high houses, but when used for divination, each card must hold a meaning separate from that assigned role. Like the tarot.

[Abyss]

Theotendo, on 29 October 2009 - 06:07 PM, said:

The question on the cards dealt and their possible meanings would be a lot easier to answer if we had a clearer concept of what each card meant. Yes, there are occupied roles in the high houses, but when used for divination, each card must hold a meaning separate from that assigned role. Like the tarot.

But that's sort of the point - divination by the Deck is an inexact 'science'. It's more about influences and aspects than actual prediction of what will happen (tho it does that too). Like the tarot.

- Abyss, card.

[Pig Iron]

Trying not to think about how FA-Liosan or KCCM-Andi are actually *begot*. Shudders. Hopefully it's enough for the humanoid party to sit on a dirty toilet-seat or something.

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 29 October 2009 - 07:31 PM, said:

Trying not to think about how FA-Liosan or KCCM-Andi are actually *begot*. Shudders. Hopefully it's enough for the humanoid party to sit on a dirty toilet-seat or something.

Well the former would simply require knocking boots. Odd visual perhaps, but all races concerned are humanoid and have the necessary squishy bits.

The latter only happened because a desperate Matron released her eggs into a water supply and the 'tadpoles' figured out how to use humanoids as hosts, leaving a genetic trace on their descendents.

- Abyss, ..isn't going to dwell on the logistics of full blood Thelomen sheboinging anyone of 'lesser' size in either gender combination...

[Mentalist]

they did it to begat the barghast.

also, re: Kolanse. I believe in RG Redmask comments on how they caused the droughts themselves by destroying the soil by overfarming or somesuch.

[Pig Iron]

Great, tadpoles. Makes you feel better.

[HoosierDaddy]

1. It's the "Just Wars" that were fought between the FA and Liosan. Reaper's Gale, 394.

2. As for the Liosan, FA, and Ribby Snake:

The latter sections make clear that Brayderal was "hiding" as a human child, but that her increasing stress was making it difficult to keep her hidden.

Quote

"She alone possessed the legacy of the Inquisitors, shining bright beneath her almost translucent skin.... I am a child of the Quitters. I am here to complete their work."

Further on:

Quote

"Be careful, daughter, with these humans. To live, they will do anything."

Further yet:

Quote

"And the Quitters came among us, down from the north. They walked like the broken...."

Quote

"The sun made the world white, bitter with purity. This was the perfection so cherished by the Quitters."

We also have 3 distinctive titles amongst the remaining 4 "Quitters".

Inquisitor Sever, Brother Adroit, Sister Rail, and Sistern Scorn who is the remaining Adjudicator. All 4 emerged:

Quote

"from the heat shimmer...fast closing. Like win-rocked puppets, every limb snapped back until broken, wheeling loose, and death surrounded them in whirlwinds.... [She] saw mouths open - YIELD!"

So, to some up, all four Quitters have the multiple joints of Assail. They walked like the broken, I guess if they walked with lose joints some might see their gait as broken.

At least two have the word magic as "mouths" opened.

Brayderal, is a child of the Quitters, and has translucent skin. Badalle equates "a world made white" with the Quitters. We have never seen FA use voice magic before in the other ancient and very powerful few we've met (however, I'll note that could be an evolutionary thing that developed).

It seems to me that there is a combination of Forkrulian and Liosan traits here, which would denote a mixing of the two.

3. As for Mr. Beard, there is a character with a beard mentioned three times in the book that I noted:

Quote

'Thank you, Captain,' Ruthan replied, combing fingers through his beard....'

Quote

'The mystery is, there's at least three in there I can't even identify. A woman, a girl and some bearded bastard who feels close enough to spit on.'

Quote

"Among all in her clan, Kebralle Korish alone had succeeded in drawing close enough to the Three to swing her blade. She remembered, with vivid clarity, the shock upon the face of the Bearded One, when her curved weapon's edge had bit deep, scoring the flesh deep and wide across his chest....

Kebralle Korish stood on the wall of the Fastness. She delivered a wound upon one of the Three, the only T'lan Imass to have done so. Had he stood alone, she would have killed him. The Bearded One would have fallen, the first breach in the defences of the Three.... [who] had seen the stain of his blood? Running black as night."

In addition, I noted ZERO other characters in the Wastelands with a beard, including Draconus, Ublala, Torrent, Silchas, (don't remember of Ryadd Elalle does).

My guess is the guy with the beard is Ruthan Guud, who is just (obviously) very good at concealing his nature and staying out of the way of those who might take notice. However, the addition of the Bearded One in a random aside just seems too damned convenient to me in this situation, and could be more history on the mystery man himself.

The black blood is an interesting bit. Guess where we've seen it before?

Quote

"He swung at a shoulder and the tulwar slid through the stones with a grating screech. The arm hung half-dismembered, accompanied by a gout of black blood as thick as tar."

RotCG, Traveller, Kyle, & Ereko v. the Cabal in Jacuruku.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 29 October 2009 - 09:52 PM

[Ulrik]

A little OT, but better than start new topic.

Otataral "cancels" warren magic or also holds? I cant remember with certainity now. I think that warrens, but...

So here is my crazy link of confused ideas. If OT (Otataral Dragon, not off-topic) means "death" --> destroying of magic = warrens --> leads to death of Krul. To save life (as someone in DoD points, death of magic means death of everything) Iccys warrens will have to take place? Killing of OT must be done thru Heboric - he call himself a weapon and already destroyed otataral in hs hand in HoC. Question is if he will be weapon of Treach (Gruntle is already here, so convergence works) or someone else...? Olar Ethil comes to place...buuuut...

In HoC Apsalar shows one idea - ST and Cot maybe wants to claim all thrones. Well, its almost impossible now, but can chain new, maybe loyal ones. They messed with and influenced Master of Deck, same with Guardians of Hood´s Gates, maybe House of War, are closely linked with Magus of Dark, can still influence old, broken mate Dessembrae... what happended with control of throne "of Imass"?

Well, those sneaky bastards have many thin ties to many powerful ascendents or groups and can pretty strongly hit in final great. Not by power of magic, but simply by words. Toc would be happy to eliminate Olar Ethil and prevent her clash with OT, which can kill Krul. Paran can rule out Errant, Traveller is still able under right influence beat Draconus (dunno why, but...). 

ST and Cot doesnt have to rule all power sources. They can simply change ownership of them and sink all old ones. 




OK, it is very confused bunch of thoughs, but I just realized that "weak duo in the background" posess many links to change constellation of power. Of course, there is many loose lines (Hood and his Jaghuts, Tool´s punitive army, Liosan) and there will be clashes in many dimensions (FA and BH, OT vs ???, Elder Gods vs everyone, Tavore against CG´s chains...) but...damn, they are not so powerless and what they can best is manipulate.

[Hetan]

@Hoosier Daddy - Draconus certainly is bearded in TTH, but he is not one of The Three.
The Three mentioned are surely the rulers of Shal-Morzzin and I doubt that Ruthan Gudd is one of them.

I think the bearded bastard mentioned by QB is either Ruthan Gudd or possibly Draconus - his presence is bound to be felt... he's an elder god after all.

I've posted that the warrens of the FA and the Liosan are neighbours. The Liosan are all for "Order" and the FA for "Justice".
I'm pretty sure that the Quitters are a hybrid of FA and Liosan and the bits and pieces posted by HD are quite useful pieces of evidence for this.

[Mentalist]

Ulrik, on 30 October 2009 - 08:19 PM, said:

A little OT, but better than start new topic.

Otataral "cancels" warren magic or also holds? I cant remember with certainity now. I think that warrens, but...

So here is my crazy link of confused ideas. If OT (Otataral Dragon, not off-topic) means "death" --> destroying of magic = warrens --> leads to death of Krul. To save life (as someone in DoD points, death of magic means death of everything) Iccys warrens will have to take place? Killing of OT must be done thru Heboric - he call himself a weapon and already destroyed otataral in hs hand in HoC. Question is if he will be weapon of Treach (Gruntle is already here, so convergence works) or someone else...? Olar Ethil comes to place...buuuut...

In HoC Apsalar shows one idea - ST and Cot maybe wants to claim all thrones. Well, its almost impossible now, but can chain new, maybe loyal ones. They messed with and influenced Master of Deck, same with Guardians of Hood´s Gates, maybe House of War, are closely linked with Magus of Dark, can still influence old, broken mate Dessembrae... what happended with control of throne "of Imass"?

Well, those sneaky bastards have many thin ties to many powerful ascendents or groups and can pretty strongly hit in final great. Not by power of magic, but simply by words. Toc would be happy to eliminate Olar Ethil and prevent her clash with OT, which can kill Krul. Paran can rule out Errant, Traveller is still able under right influence beat Draconus (dunno why, but...). 

ST and Cot doesnt have to rule all power sources. They can simply change ownership of them and sink all old ones. 




OK, it is very confused bunch of thoughs, but I just realized that "weak duo in the background" posess many links to change constellation of power. Of course, there is many loose lines (Hood and his Jaghuts, Tool´s punitive army, Liosan) and there will be clashes in many dimensions (FA and BH, OT vs ???, Elder Gods vs everyone, Tavore against CG´s chains...) but...damn, they are not so powerless and what they can best is manipulate.

I still maintain that ST and Cot are going to get hit HARD in tCG. yeah, i know, they're the fan favourites, and they can manipulte their way into a Spite/Envy foursome if needed, but the message that keeps being sent home in DoD is that "mortals are outliving their gods, i.e, the gods are no longer necessary"

also, I am yet to see Shadowthrone manipulate Paran. MotD is the mortal's voice in the games of gods. he represents mortal interests.

[Pig Iron]

I see ST and Cot more as "human" in this context. It is quite possible that they ascended as part of a human-oriented strategy. I think SE said once in an interview that the series is, in a way, "about" ST and Cot and their journey. It is very interesting to think about what that journey has been, from the empire-days to the azath-trekking to ascendancy, and what they learnt about the underlying mess of old conflicts and secrects between the gods. I believe the old Deadhouse gang quietly decided to end the rule of the gods. Since that rule seems to depend on alot of enforced stasis (closing of SD, Dragnipur, chainings and so on) they probably set out to destroy those. Anyway, we will see soon, won't we

[Ulrik]

Well, Cotillion many times proves that he is mortal more than most of humans:) Which I think will lead him to death or killing ST.

Reread HoC is useful. Someone for example learns that for Cot´s "teleport" (thru Rashan or...?) requires raising of hand. Something like QB do before sky keep erases him (Im not his ultra fan, just Im trying to find a way to his expected survival).

And HoC mentions other thing - otataral have tendency to really badly explode when hit by moranth muntion. So, nobody needs Heboric, just give Hedge and his BB enough of sharpers

[Abyss]

@HD - strong quote fu given postrep.

I'm on side with the bearded dude being Gudd.
Also with the Quitters being FA/Liosan hybrids, tho i suspect there's human in the mix there too.

- Abyss, wouldn't have wanted to be at THAT party...

[chaosek]

The Three mentioned are surely the rulers of Shal-Morzzin and I doubt that Ruthan Gudd is one of them

I've read all books and am rereading some, but who are the rulers of Shal-morzzin? Do we have more scenes in which they are involved? It always could be RG was one of those three rulers, got trapped in a Azath etc.
Ruthan Gudd is a mystery and I have the feeling there could be more hints to his personallity in the books that we have missed.

[Abyss]

There really is no reason to link Gudd with the Three, is there?

Gudd is powerful and obviously has a long history but i don't think there's a single ref to make that link, other than the fact that he and one of the three have a beard.

- Abyss, calls that fuzzy logic.