[Tremolo]

Goddammit, Erikson is good! It takes a writer beyond the ordinarily good to make you want to go on reading no matter how unpleasant or heart breaking the story is. I cant wait for the final installment.

[Mentalist]

masan, on 13 October 2009 - 10:10 PM, said:

alt146, on 13 October 2009 - 07:00 AM, said:

Abyss, on 12 October 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

The Pearl - Vygath thing is just Lostara working out her issues. There is no connection between Pearl and Vygath (other than Lostara digs them).

masan, on 11 October 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

...@ Abyss. Is it stated that the children of the snake are definatley "human"? I can't remember. If they are, how does that FA girl blend in so well and why do they let her considering they are running from the FA ? Those little snakey brats confuse the hell outa me.
...

Two thoughts on this: 1) the Snake kids are human but by virtue of what they went thru they are hard core. FA girl blends in because the FA themselves have become diluted and more 'human; or 2) the entire population is crossbred with FA and the FA girl and the pursuers are just 'more' pure.


- Abyss, leaning towards 1.

The whole snake sequence had a similar feel to the first book, I was expecting some kind huge change in perception similar to when you realise Karsa's 'children' are humans and he's actually a toblakai. I think the fact that Badalle refers to the BH as children has strong echoes of that whole story arc. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the wasteland was actually a warren; or if the children are somehow part Liosan or FA; or even some other twist we havent thought of yet yet. Although I'm doubting it would be a mix FA and human. We know that the FA girl (dont have the book to check her name) had to disguise herself, one of the inquisitors says something about how taxing this would have been. Given the speculation that the FA warren has links to Mockra, it seems likely she had to keep some sort of magical disguise in place. Even if it wasn't a magical disguise, she looked different enough that she had to hide it, making me think it's less likely that the children in snake have some kind of FA ancestry.

Whether Badalle was guiding the She'galle or just along for the ride is up for debate. I got the impression she was exerting her will to snatch the two fires, which is why I was confused when it turned out the two fires were Stormy and Gesler. Espescially since Kalyth (or it might have been the Matron-to-be) also remarked on being able to see the Thyrllan on them. I'm very interested to see where the snake story goes, we obviously havent seen the last of them.

CRAZY THEORY TIME !!!

Based on what Alt said about the Toblakai description of humans as "children", what are the chances that, as Badalle uses the same terminology, the remaining members of the "snake" are Thelomen/Tarthenal/Toblakai and end up becoming the army Karsa told Ublala Pung to find!!!


Ublala's tooled up, he's got uncle Drac with him and he is heading in the right direction. I also seem to remember a passage from RG or TTH about how the Tarthenal from the north of Lether were "displaced" or migrated or something ( Doesn't Pung tell the story to Shurqe about how the Tarthenal were brutalised by the Letheri and that many of them left ?). That may be complete bollocks though

Add this to Karsa's connection to the CG, and there then is the possibility that Badalle, Rutt and Held are MS, SA and D to the CG ! They have been through hell and previous knowledge tells us the CG likes using "damaged goods" as his tools. It also may help to explain how FA girl manages to blend in, with a little bit of help from some Mockra tricksiness. TTT and FA are about the same height ?

I know it has been said that we won't see Karsa again until the trilogy, but that scene in HOC when Calm says she will be there to witness/ judge Karsa at "the end" would tie together nicely with some Toblakai vs Assail awesomeness.

Pung has a big part to play in the next book (why is Draconus so interested in him?) as do Knuckles and Killimandaros.......


This CRAZY THEORY has been copyrighted by Masan Holdings Plc.
Please feel free to dismantle and rubbish the above post as you see fit.

Except that the Tarthenals, the Nerek and the Fent were all taken out of Letheras by Tehol back in MT to those islands he bought, to be re-settled there in order for them to restore their cultures.
they were also supposed to start worshipping Bugg (another reason he was able to break free of Mallick, maybe?)
and in RG, when Ublala tells Karsa about the remaining tarhenals on the islands, Karsa tasks him with finding them.

[Abyss]

I tend to agree that Bugg was able to break with the Jhistal because of other worshippers who cast him in a different aspect. RCG sort of hints at this.

It seemed to moi that while Pung was set to action Karsa's plan, he was effectively derailed and is now cast in some sort of 'Champion of Life' role and set on a path towards whatever Draconus is heading for. So the Tarthenal hoard gathering to serve Karsa may have to wait a while.


- Abyss, cannot say often enough how much he LOVED every scene those two had together.

[Lister of Smeg]

Just after Fiddler draws the card of Herald of Life for Ublala, he looks at another card - Chain. So, any chance that Draconus is going to get Pung to break the Crippled God's chains? Drac might sympathise with the CG after being chained himself for so long.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i always thought that chain was tavores card, as she was pulling them into the wasteland, though which end of the chain was doing the pulling wasn't clear. that being said it does seem likely that ublala will have something to do with the final convergence. he has that great big axe now, nice and sharp for cutting chains

[HoosierDaddy]

Quotes about Tavore and Chain:

So, I haven't seen this talked about on here yet. To close Fiddler's reading, he pulls two cards out of the deck when he is on his own:

Tarthenal Toblakai & Chain.

Quote

Fiddler stared at the card in his hands. The lacquered wood glistened, dripped as if slick with sweat. The smell rising from it was of humus, rich and dark, a scent of the raw earth.

'Tartheno Toblakai,' he whispered.

Herald of Life.

Well, just so.

He set it down and then squinted at the second card he had withdrawn to close this dread night. Unaligned, Chain. Aye, we all know about those, my dear. Fret naught, it's the price of living.

Now, if only you weren't so... strong. If only you were weaker. If only your chains didn't reach right into the heart of the Bonehunters - if only I knew who was dragging who, why, I might have reason to hope.

Tavore DOES have a card in the reading. It closes out the entire thing, Tavore remains the pivot of the reading, meaning to me, she is the key to the entire reading.

Secondly, notice it is Tarthenal Toblakai, not TTT. At first, I thought these two cards could have signified Karsa and Kaminsod or Ublala Pung and Draconus. Karsa and Ublala would have fulfilled the Toblakai part, where as both Kaminsod and Draconus have been chained.

But, the part about reaching into the heart of the Bonehunters and referring to the person as dear pretty much determines it is neither Kaminsod or Draconus.

"The smell rising from it was of humus, rich and dark, a scent of the raw earth." Ties directly into Ublala unearthing his armor. Herald of Life, meaning that entire reading was dominated by two groups: Life (Captain - Lostara, King - Brys, Priest - Fiddler), and the Unaligned: (Scepter - Grub, Throne - Stormy, Orb - Gesler, Obelisk - Bottle).

So, I think we all agree that Ublala isn't necessarily the savior that's going to come around, but it's certainly possible that the person he brings with him (Draconus), could be the lynch pin of the Life side, just as Tavore is the lynch pin of the unaligned cards.

[Abyss]

THE MEANWHILE BACK IN LETH EDITION

The above discussion reminds me that i was thinking a while ago that it's funny how we seem to focus on the latter half of the book and the events around Drac's return, the end of the White Face, Tool, the Bonehunter battle against the KN and of course GESELR AND STORMY'S AWESOME ADVENTURE OF PURE LIZARD ARMY WIN... when a lot of interesting stuff happened back in Lether before the Bonehunters left the city.


TAVORE AND KAMINSOD SITTING IN A TREE...

Fid's reading is the obvious point. I tend to agree that Chain symbolizes Tavore and there is a big question of just who is pulling whom. If one of my other theories if corect, the Unbound were there to grab Tavore, which suggests that the CG was, to some extent pulling the Malazans to him to grab her. Exactly why is a little trickier, but it seems clear that while the Gods are planning another Chaining, Tavore was planning something else, and the CG may want to spin her plans in some way.

I liked how so many others knew about the reading and were staying the hell clear of the area.


UBLALA THE MIGHTY

I tend to agree that the reading forcast Ublala playing a role. The T3 race appears to have a strong connection to the world, tracing back to the Thel Akai who seemed to have been basically anthromorphic earth elementals from whom the various Toblakai variants descended. Karsa is both too wilful and too powerful to have in play, but Ublala... well, he's powerful, we saw that when he broke one of his own gods in half in MT, but he's a bit lean on the brains side of things. Give him a power-up via dragonbone armour and weapons, put him in place to link up with Draconus and bingo... the pawn becomes a knight (or a herald) and is on track to be in the right place at the right time. It was pretty clear from Harlest (and Old Hunch's ghost) that some power was pushing for Ublala to get involved.


SEREN IS AWESOME JUST ACCEPT IT

One other event during Fid's reading that blew me away was the scene between Bugg and Seren. Sure, the drunk gods were good fun, but Seren basically bullying Mael into summoning Shadowthrone was just staggering, as was Kilava's. Which led to the whole power-is-commitment discussion we so love to debate.

Also interesting was that Seren and Trull's son is ALREADY designated as Knight of Shadow. Kid's not even born yet... geez... can't he just sit around and poop himself for a few years before he has to start kicking butt? Still... child of the Edur Knight of Shadow and a human High Mage of Mokra... oh, there is potential there, there is.


THE TEHOL SHOW

I couldn't quite make up my mind whether Tehol's rule was being threatened by the Letherii elit. Some of the text and chapter openers suggested it but others suggested he was well loved... i suppose both are probably true. With Bugg there he isn't in much danger but the Elder Gods' involvement was clearly drawing Bugg's attention and Brys left with the Bonehunters and apparently the only Letherii High Mage... i'm left wondering whether we may not see Tehol's downfall before it's all over. He still has the Ratcatchers but they seem to work only in the background... not that having an assassins' guild working for you in the background is a bad thing.


- Abyss, could say it might be hell for Lether...

[masan's saddle]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 October 2009 - 01:36 AM, said:

i always thought that chain was tavores card, as she was pulling them into the wasteland, though which end of the chain was doing the pulling wasn't clear. that being said it does seem likely that ublala will have something to do with the final convergence. he has that great big axe now, nice and sharp for cutting chains

Or killing dragons......

[Lister of Smeg]

I'm rereading DoD at the moment and just came to a scene between Bottle and Quick where Ben is playing with his dolls again. He has made dolls of just about everyone that might be involved in the rest of the series. He says it's a mess, but there are three that are troubling him particularly. Quote from page 376.

Quote

"The mystery is, there's at least three in there I can't even identify. A woman, a girl and some bearded bastard who feels close enough to spit on.

Presumably the bearded bastard is Ruthan Gudd, so who are the woman and the girl? Is it answered later in the book and I've just forgotten? I was thinking that the girl could either by Setoc or Badalle, both of whom I can see as having a large role to play. Who is the woman? The only candidate I can think of is Yan Tovis. Any other suggestions?

[Abyss]

Lister of Smeg, on 25 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

...

Presumably the bearded bastard is Ruthan Gudd, so who are the woman and the girl? Is it answered later in the book and I've just forgotten? I was thinking that the girl could either by Setoc or Badalle, both of whom I can see as having a large role to play. Who is the woman? The only candidate I can think of is Yan Tovis. Any other suggestions?

I agree the bearded dude is likely Gudd. Girl is probably Badalle since Sinn is already known to QB. Woman... again, QB knows the Grey Helm Mortal Sword... so possibly that Queen the Gilk are marching with whose name escapes me or the Khundryl chief's wife - they were both viewpoint characters who weren't dead as of the end of DoD. Actually, the more obvious choice is the KC Destriant, since she played a pretty key role in events.

Hmm...

- Abyss, all doll'd up.

[Lister of Smeg]

Abyss, on 25 October 2009 - 04:53 PM, said:

Girl is probably Badalle since Sinn is already known to QB.

Hence my suggesting Setoc, not Sinn.

The woman being Kalyth is a good idea. Makes more sense than Twilight.

[Abyss]

Setoc is another logical option. Aguably because of the Wolf Gods link she's closer to the malazans than Badalle.

I suppose we can't overlook Sandalath as another possibility for the woman, tho i think the Queen or Kalyth way more likely.

- Abyss, dis-carded.

[Illuyankas]

I think they're Kalyth, Setoc and Guthan Rudd (or is it Ruthan Gudd? I can never remember), but only because Quick almost certainly would have recognised Draconus, another prominent bearded person.

[Hetan]

Just going back to an earlier part of this thread where there is speculation that the FA may have inter-bred with humans to produce a hybrid race. There is one race whose warren lies next to that of the FA and that is the Tiste Liosan. Not human, but they don't have that extra joint thing going on either. Just thought I would throw that out for consideration

[Urizen]

Hetan, on 26 October 2009 - 07:28 AM, said:

Just going back to an earlier part of this thread where there is speculation that the FA may have inter-bred with humans to produce a hybrid race. There is one race whose warren lies next to that of the FA and that is the Tiste Liosan. Not human, but they don't have that extra joint thing going on either. Just thought I would throw that out for consideration

Maybe, but shouldn't a TL/FA pairing produce a fairly powerful offspring rather than simply a weaker FA(as the consensus seem be with regards to the FA's we see in DoD)?

[Illuyankas]

1. The standard member of a Tiste race isn't that hugely strong compared to a human.
2. The Liosan are kinky.

[Abyss]

The Liosan/FA pairing isn't unthinkable. After the Shake, i'm prepared to buy virtually any inter-racial pairing that doesn't involve a Hound of Shadow.

Anyrate, no reason to assume an FA/Liosan hybrid would be uber-anything. The opposite could hold if the genes didn't mesh well - look at Ligers or Tions, tiger/lion pairings that are typically huge but sterile and sickly.

The 'Assail' that pursued the Snake seemed to be tough and have Mokra mojo. Badalle took them down, but that was due to her own (probably high mage level) Mokra mojo - we didn't really see the Assail do more than walk thru the desert and mind-batter some kids.

There's still the running question of why these FA were so different from the one the Watch killed, but as discussed elsethread that's easy enough to explain away.

- Abyss, *sings* ...iiiiii'mmmm, 'splaaaaaaaining... awaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy.....

[Mentalist]

so, the FAs won the just wars and took Liosan women as the prize? or was it the other way around?

[amphibian]

Lister of Smeg, on 25 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

Quote

"The mystery is, there's at least three in there I can't even identify. A woman, a girl and some bearded bastard who feels close enough to spit on.

Olar Ethil?

[Hetan]

I'd agree with Kalyth and Setoc, however would QB not know Ruthan Gudd? Although the fact that he is close enough to spit certainly suggests he's the best candidate.