[masan's saddle]

I finally finished the book tonight after having it lying around the house for a month..., constantly knackered from work and unable to get a decent period of time to immerse myself ! Anyway did the final 150 pages in one hit, WOW what an ending ! This thread is rather good as well, so well done everyone for addressing most of my quibbles.

@Abyss earlier on you requested some quote fu for a point made by Alt ? I have to agree with Alt, as I also thought it was Badalle not Kalyth who instigated the snatching of Stormy and Gesler.

So, taken from Badalles POV on pg772 of the UK edition,

"She'd dreamed of children. Looking down from a great height. Watching them march in their tens of thousands. They had cattle,mules and oxen. Many rode horses. They glittered blindingly in the hard sunlight, as if they bore the treasures of the world on their backs. Children, but not her children.
And then the day ended and darkness bled to the earth, and she dreamed that it was at last time to descend, spiralling, moaning through the air. She would strike swiftly, and if possible unseen by any. There were magics below, in that vast multi limbed camp. She had to avoid brushing those. If need be she would kill to silence, but this was not her true task.
She dreamed her eyes- and she had more of those than she should, no matter - fixed upon the 2 burning spots that she sought. Bright golden hearth flames - she had been tracking them for a long time now, in service to the commands that she had been given.
She was descending upon the children.
To steal fire.
Strange dreams, yes, but it seemed they existed for a reason. The deeds done within them had purpose, and this was more than anything real could manage."

You could interpret this as Badalle just being "along for the ride" with Gu'Rull when he snatches Stormy and Ges, but how, and more importantly why, is she in the mind of a Shi'gal? This is made even more interesting by the fact that she picks up a shard from the broken crystal palace at the centre of the city and....,

" She glanced down at her makeshift sword. It seemed unaccountably bright, as if gathering all the light it could drink. Golden flames seemed to glitter in its heart. It was beautiful, yes, but there was something else there. Something of power.... a terrible power.
She remembered, from somewhere, tales about weapons, and those weapons were given names. Thus she would name hers fire."
( page 779)

The use of italics in both instances of the word fire are SE's. I don't think this is random. Is Badalle aspected with Tellas/ Tellan/ Thyrllan ? Is she now a Mortal Sword ( making Rutt and Held, Destriant and Shield Anvil or vice versa) and if so to who ? Who are these children of the snake !!??!! GRAH !

Talking of swords WTF is the deal with that sword the Watch found whilst he was beachcombing ?

And another thing !

Just after QB gets monstered by that massive bolt of lightning, something VERY strange.

" The shock wave staggered Lostara, stole her breath, deafened her. Hands to her face, she slumped down, struck the ground hard.
Pearl ? " (pg 846)

PEARL ! Is she just reminiscing or as I crazily propose, has she just realised who Henar Vygulf actually is ( sneaky Mockra/ Meanas sneakster that he is) He seems awfully interested in her and she does a shadow dance for him......

OK somebody tell me that Pearl died 4 books ago or something, cos I can't remember and my head is pickled.

Awesome book Mr Erikson, thankyou.


Edit. And another another thing, Sechul Lath was the one who brought Oponn "into being"
Nice.

This post has been edited by masan's saddle: 10 October 2009 - 01:10 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Pearl died at the end of The Bonehunters. Baffling sequence that part.

[Sotgnomen]

Setoc joining the Perish..

While I agree that it would fit nicely, I too think it a bit too obvious. Besides, this is erikson. People tend to be just too late a lot of the time. It would be more in character with the rest of the book if she is actually meant to be destriant, but does not get there in time, and so rather ends up in opposition to the Perish, as the MS and the SA force them into something ridiculously and frustratingly stupid, like fighting the malazans or such.

[HoosierDaddy]

I briefly thought of that eventuality. However, there is far too much build up of both the Icarian train, Che'Mallian officers, and Perishan skulduggery that quite simply amounts to massive death for all parties involved.

More specifically, Badalle as a TRUE Destriant of the Che'Maille after those quotes is a possibility. Unless, you realize Icarium has another role to play in another series, even if it isn't the Big One.


Bah, so fucking confusing.

[Abyss]

@MA'SADDLE - your quote fu is strong. it leaves open the question of whether Badalle was just channeling the Shi'gal or guiding him and if so, why. We've seen virtually random visions before... see Cutter viewing the QoD with Leonman and Dunsparrow in TB for no apparent reason.

- Abyss, also intrigued by the Snake...

[masan's saddle]

HoosierDaddy, on 10 October 2009 - 03:20 AM, said:

Pearl died at the end of The Bonehunters. Baffling sequence that part.

Can you remember how he died ? My copy has been snaffled by my brother in-law.

I just think that Henar Vygath seems to have come out of nowhere. Ok he's alledgedly from Bluerose but wasn't Pearl also a part Andii, who could also change his appearance using Mockra ?
Granted Lostara may just be reminiscing about a previous "love" thinking she's about to die, or she mentions his name out of some warped fondness of his martial prowess prior to starting a shadow dance. But why the question mark ! " Pearl ?"

It implies she's just worked something out and that being the case the part where her and Henar first meet in the tent (where he doesn't stop staring at her, although granted she's supposed to be a babe) becomes more relevant. As does his desire to check that the Adjunct and Lostara are still alive, staring down a mob of Nah'ruk in the process.

Is it Pearl ? It would be cool as I always liked his character and he wouldn't be the first to come back from the dead. Also didn't he have a freakishily good knowledge of Dragons/Eleint ?!? or am I having a brain fart.
Your right, it's baffling. Maybe Henar's his brother or something

@ Abyss. Is it stated that the children of the snake are definatley "human"? I can't remember. If they are, how does that FA girl blend in so well and why do they let her considering they are running from the FA ? Those little snakey brats confuse the hell outa me.

Things would become a lot easier if they were Liosan

[Illuyankas]

Pearl died after Apsalar poisoned him with the same stuff he used on Kalam and Lostara put him out of his misery with the knife she's always fiddling with. I'm certain her going 'Pearl?' was a shocked, 'Are we dead now?' reaction.

[masan's saddle]

Aha, cheers Illy that does seem plausible.

Maybe Lostara just loves a bit of half- Andii IPS DRIVE ERROR

[Abyss]

The Pearl - Vygath thing is just Lostara working out her issues. There is no connection between Pearl and Vygath (other than Lostara digs them).

masan, on 11 October 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

...@ Abyss. Is it stated that the children of the snake are definatley "human"? I can't remember. If they are, how does that FA girl blend in so well and why do they let her considering they are running from the FA ? Those little snakey brats confuse the hell outa me.
...

Two thoughts on this: 1) the Snake kids are human but by virtue of what they went thru they are hard core. FA girl blends in because the FA themselves have become diluted and more 'human; or 2) the entire population is crossbred with FA and the FA girl and the pursuers are just 'more' pure.


- Abyss, leaning towards 1.

[masan's saddle]

Hmmm, FA's and humans crossbreeding seems odd considering the FA's " puritanical " approach to everything. Why would this have happened and who would of instigated it ? Maybe the FA were doing something similar to the KCCM in looking for a human MS, SA and D, and attemted it through cross breeding ? This might explain Badalle's power, particularly her voice, which iirc is an FA thing.

It also implies a potential schism amongst the FA which may be the primary reason for the devastation of Kolanse ?

Meh, I don't know and i'm clutching at straws, when's the next book out ?

[Abyss]

It's a running theme in the books that other races, dying out, try to save their race by linking somehow with with humans. Or they're just horny and into that sort of thing, but even so, there's no reason FA can't mix, given that we've seen Tiste and Imass can do it, the Teblor and Tarthenal races are the result of it, and even the KC found a way, albeit weirdly and with little success (the lizard influence in the Shake shamans, seen in RG, ref'd in DoD about the matron spreading her eggs into the ocean, and also LLE, albeit sideways).

- Abyss, ....ew.

[chaosek]

I think Badelle might have ascended during her travels. There are many ways of doing that either by their hardship, collecting souls of the dying or some thing with Iccy's warrens (they are pretty close to where Iccy presumably started out). I also had the idea that Badelle and her snake are actually travelling across one of Iccy's warrens like Grub and Sinn, the army they encounter or of course Iccy himself.

[Abyss]

I took it that Badalle was High Mokra but only accessed it for the first time when the FA closed in. She did that thing throwing their own words back at them and it appeared they were using Mokra as well, tho it's possible they used the FA warren and Badalle is part blood FA enough to do the same, which goes back to my theory above.

It's certainly possible ascension played a part in the Snake, but i remain sceptical. The entire Chain of Dogs didn't ascend, and while the Bridgeburners were 'touched' by Raraku, they didn't ascend at that point. Ascension came later under further/other influences.

- Abyss, theoretically.

[beru]

maybe the FA warren is the precessor of Mokra in the same way as Kurald Emurlan is the old version of rashan or menas or whatever

[Sinisdar Toste]

i posted the theory in the "iccy... just cant make up my mind" thread that what badalle's deal, and indeed rutt and helds deal is, is that they are icariums destriant, shield anvil and mortal sword. badalle calls him God, when he is attacking the nah'ruk so it seems like they have that kinda relationship. probably through their residing in his city

[alt146]

Abyss, on 12 October 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

The Pearl - Vygath thing is just Lostara working out her issues. There is no connection between Pearl and Vygath (other than Lostara digs them).

masan, on 11 October 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

...@ Abyss. Is it stated that the children of the snake are definatley "human"? I can't remember. If they are, how does that FA girl blend in so well and why do they let her considering they are running from the FA ? Those little snakey brats confuse the hell outa me.
...

Two thoughts on this: 1) the Snake kids are human but by virtue of what they went thru they are hard core. FA girl blends in because the FA themselves have become diluted and more 'human; or 2) the entire population is crossbred with FA and the FA girl and the pursuers are just 'more' pure.


- Abyss, leaning towards 1.

The whole snake sequence had a similar feel to the first book, I was expecting some kind huge change in perception similar to when you realise Karsa's 'children' are humans and he's actually a toblakai. I think the fact that Badalle refers to the BH as children has strong echoes of that whole story arc. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the wasteland was actually a warren; or if the children are somehow part Liosan or FA; or even some other twist we havent thought of yet yet. Although I'm doubting it would be a mix FA and human. We know that the FA girl (dont have the book to check her name) had to disguise herself, one of the inquisitors says something about how taxing this would have been. Given the speculation that the FA warren has links to Mockra, it seems likely she had to keep some sort of magical disguise in place. Even if it wasn't a magical disguise, she looked different enough that she had to hide it, making me think it's less likely that the children in snake have some kind of FA ancestry.

Whether Badalle was guiding the She'galle or just along for the ride is up for debate. I got the impression she was exerting her will to snatch the two fires, which is why I was confused when it turned out the two fires were Stormy and Gesler. Espescially since Kalyth (or it might have been the Matron-to-be) also remarked on being able to see the Thyrllan on them. I'm very interested to see where the snake story goes, we obviously havent seen the last of them.

[masan's saddle]

alt146, on 13 October 2009 - 07:00 AM, said:

Abyss, on 12 October 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

The Pearl - Vygath thing is just Lostara working out her issues. There is no connection between Pearl and Vygath (other than Lostara digs them).

masan, on 11 October 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

...@ Abyss. Is it stated that the children of the snake are definatley "human"? I can't remember. If they are, how does that FA girl blend in so well and why do they let her considering they are running from the FA ? Those little snakey brats confuse the hell outa me.
...

Two thoughts on this: 1) the Snake kids are human but by virtue of what they went thru they are hard core. FA girl blends in because the FA themselves have become diluted and more 'human; or 2) the entire population is crossbred with FA and the FA girl and the pursuers are just 'more' pure.


- Abyss, leaning towards 1.

The whole snake sequence had a similar feel to the first book, I was expecting some kind huge change in perception similar to when you realise Karsa's 'children' are humans and he's actually a toblakai. I think the fact that Badalle refers to the BH as children has strong echoes of that whole story arc. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the wasteland was actually a warren; or if the children are somehow part Liosan or FA; or even some other twist we havent thought of yet yet. Although I'm doubting it would be a mix FA and human. We know that the FA girl (dont have the book to check her name) had to disguise herself, one of the inquisitors says something about how taxing this would have been. Given the speculation that the FA warren has links to Mockra, it seems likely she had to keep some sort of magical disguise in place. Even if it wasn't a magical disguise, she looked different enough that she had to hide it, making me think it's less likely that the children in snake have some kind of FA ancestry.

Whether Badalle was guiding the She'galle or just along for the ride is up for debate. I got the impression she was exerting her will to snatch the two fires, which is why I was confused when it turned out the two fires were Stormy and Gesler. Espescially since Kalyth (or it might have been the Matron-to-be) also remarked on being able to see the Thyrllan on them. I'm very interested to see where the snake story goes, we obviously havent seen the last of them.

CRAZY THEORY TIME !!!

Based on what Alt said about the Toblakai description of humans as "children", what are the chances that, as Badalle uses the same terminology, the remaining members of the "snake" are Thelomen/Tarthenal/Toblakai and end up becoming the army Karsa told Ublala Pung to find!!!


Ublala's tooled up, he's got uncle Drac with him and he is heading in the right direction. I also seem to remember a passage from RG or TTH about how the Tarthenal from the north of Lether were "displaced" or migrated or something ( Doesn't Pung tell the story to Shurqe about how the Tarthenal were brutalised by the Letheri and that many of them left ?). That may be complete bollocks though

Add this to Karsa's connection to the CG, and there then is the possibility that Badalle, Rutt and Held are MS, SA and D to the CG ! They have been through hell and previous knowledge tells us the CG likes using "damaged goods" as his tools. It also may help to explain how FA girl manages to blend in, with a little bit of help from some Mockra tricksiness. TTT and FA are about the same height ?

I know it has been said that we won't see Karsa again until the trilogy, but that scene in HOC when Calm says she will be there to witness/ judge Karsa at "the end" would tie together nicely with some Toblakai vs Assail awesomeness.

Pung has a big part to play in the next book (why is Draconus so interested in him?) as do Knuckles and Killimandaros.......


This CRAZY THEORY has been copyrighted by Masan Holdings Plc.
Please feel free to dismantle and rubbish the above post as you see fit.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well the easy way to do it would be to go open my copy of DoD and see if Saddic describes the jaghut that he sees in the crystal bowels of icarias as "tall" but i'm too lazy right now so bleh

[MTS]

Well, he's a child, so they would be tall regardless, so that doesn't really tell us anything...

[HoosierDaddy]

Even crazier theory time:

It's Pearl who got dragnipurred and somehow Lostara Yil knows him for no apparent reason whatsoever! Dragon-rage!