[HoosierDaddy]

Not logic, agreed. It's connecting disparate dots of circumstantial evidence. I.e., why the random mention of "The Three" and "The Bearded One" in the throw away p.o.v. of the Imass?

If you read that section, the point to it is that the respective T'lan is harboring a secret need for vengeance against the clan leader who called a retreat, after said T'lan had witnessed the death of nearly the entire Clan in an attempt to reach "The Three" and having finally wounded one (The Bearded Man). (The counter point to this would be that these T'lan are all feeling the utter rage of Tool as he marches towards HIS vengeance, fueling the slaughter of children and "reentry of the T'lan Imass to the world.)

Combine that with the only references to the a bearded man being to Gudd, and I see a series of dots, that COULD be connected to form a picture. The problem is that they could correlate to different pictures, yes, definitely agreed.

So, is it probable? Nope. Is it possible? You can't say it isn't.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 03 November 2009 - 07:34 PM

[Hetan]

Abyss, on 03 November 2009 - 07:19 PM, said:

There really is no reason to link Gudd with the Three, is there?

Gudd is powerful and obviously has a long history but i don't think there's a single ref to make that link, other than the fact that he and one of the three have a beard.

- Abyss, calls that fuzzy logic.

Nope the Imass in those scenes were just reliving their past - nothing to connect Gudd with The Three at all.

[Ulrik]

Sorry, it maybe doesnt belongs fully here, but HoC reread tells one thing.. Whirlwind Godess states that Kilava is mother of all humans.... so, is this equivalent of mitochondrial Eve? But I thouught that there was many Imas unchained by Ritual.

and second... Trull got ... ehm... raped? by Eresal, what is her progeny? I rather ask here than in HoC thread, bcause of spoilers.

[Hetan]

Ulrik, on 03 November 2009 - 08:00 PM, said:

Sorry, it maybe doesnt belongs fully here, but HoC reread tells one thing.. Whirlwind Godess states that Kilava is mother of all humans.... so, is this equivalent of mitochondrial Eve? But I thouught that there was many Imas unchained by Ritual.

and second... Trull got ... ehm... raped? by Eresal, what is her progeny? I rather ask here than in HoC thread, bcause of spoilers.

It runs like this - Eres - Imass - Humans , that is what that means.

[Ulrik]

Yep, I meant this one witch:) If isnt from Trull first sex some important lineage:)

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I thought the fuzzy eresdur eres-edur progeny ended up as one of kettle's souls, at the time *no idea why now*

[Abyss]

The Whirlwind Goddess was insane. He babble does suggest that Kilava was in some way 'Eve' but really it seems more like crazy talk. While there may be details we don't know, we do know that Kilava and Onrack's kid ended up in the Refugium.

Humans may be descended from the Imass, maybe not. The evolutionary line appears to be Eres-Imass-Human but back here in 'reality' at least one theory runs that neaderthals (Imass analogy) and homo erectus ('modern' humans) were parallel lines, not related, which might mean both races derived separately, possibly from the Eres.

It's easier to just accept that the WHirlwind goddess was bugnuts.


The Eres and Trull's kid is still a mystery. One theory ran that it was destined to be the one to sit on the Throne of Elder Shadow but there's a case to be made that Seren and Trull's kid will fill that role.. mind you, in DoD we're told Seren's kid is to be 'Knight'... which leaves the role of 'King' open... and they are half-siblings... hmmm...

Kettle had two souls, one FA, one human. I may be blanking, but i can't remember anything linking her to Eres or Edur.

- Abyss, evolved.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm telling you, Kettle was part Edur, and it came from Trull. She was the "Child of Terror" or whatever the Edur were afraid of, and she effectively ended Scabandari. (And herself.)

[Hetan]

Abyss, on 04 November 2009 - 03:01 PM, said:

The Whirlwind Goddess was insane. He babble does suggest that Kilava was in some way 'Eve' but really it seems more like crazy talk. While there may be details we don't know, we do know that Kilava and Onrack's kid ended up in the Refugium.

Humans may be descended from the Imass, maybe not. The evolutionary line appears to be Eres-Imass-Human but back here in 'reality' at least one theory runs that neaderthals (Imass analogy) and homo erectus ('modern' humans) were parallel lines, not related, which might mean both races derived separately, possibly from the Eres.

It's easier to just accept that the WHirlwind goddess was bugnuts.


The Eres and Trull's kid is still a mystery. One theory ran that it was destined to be the one to sit on the Throne of Elder Shadow but there's a case to be made that Seren and Trull's kid will fill that role.. mind you, in DoD we're told Seren's kid is to be 'Knight'... which leaves the role of 'King' open... and they are half-siblings... hmmm...

Kettle had two souls, one FA, one human. I may be blanking, but i can't remember anything linking her to Eres or Edur.

- Abyss, evolved.

The Whirlwind Goddess was Onrack's wife and she was driven mad by his betrayal of her with Kilava, hence she referred to Kilava's child as her own and that Kilava had stolen her child.

The child Kettle was referred to by the Nerek as a "true child of the Eres". Her soul remembered her being tall and of her having walked the hot sands of the First Empire. The speculation was that her father was Trull Sengar as he was raped by the Eres'al and as she is a time traveller, he could have been the father of kettle. I'm still not convinced this isn't the case either.

[Hetan]

HoosierDaddy, on 04 November 2009 - 05:50 PM, said:

I'm telling you, Kettle was part Edur, and it came from Trull. She was the "Child of Terror" or whatever the Edur were afraid of, and she effectively ended Scabandari. (And herself.)

sorry for the double post - she was not the "Child of Terror" - that is an Edur myth because we know it was Kilmandaros that killed Scabandari.

[HoosierDaddy]

His physical body, but not his soul. That was accomplished with the Finnest being driven into Kettle.

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 04 November 2009 - 05:53 PM, said:

...
The child Kettle was referred to by the Nerek as a "true child of the Eres". Her soul remembered her being tall and of her having walked the hot sands of the First Empire. The speculation was that her father was Trull Sengar as he was raped by the Eres'al and as she is a time traveller, he could have been the father of kettle. I'm still not convinced this isn't the case either.

Ah yes that. Had completely forgotten the Nerek comment. In theory that could also ref the fact that Kettle seems to time travel, but yeah, it's wide open.

Hetan, on 04 November 2009 - 05:55 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 04 November 2009 - 05:50 PM, said:

I'm telling you, Kettle was part Edur, and it came from Trull. She was the "Child of Terror" or whatever the Edur were afraid of, and she effectively ended Scabandari. (And herself.)

...was not the "Child of Terror" - that is an Edur myth because we know it was Kilmandaros that killed Scabandari.

I always figured that might be a ref to the otataral dragon, since it was supposedly the dragons who created it, likely knowing none of them could have taken Scabby out (Rake chained up three puebloods on his own. Scabby was likely not in Rake's class, but still powerful).

We don't know what happened prior to Scabby holed up in cave, thoroughly pummled by Kila and Mael, about to have his brainz punched in

- Abyss, could say he couldn't wrap his head around it...

[Lister of Smeg]

Where does it say the dragons created the OD? Because, rereading DoD, I've got a feeling the KCCM were involved somehow, too. In a conversation about the OD, Sag'Churok says the following to Kalyth (page 249):

Quote

"We are reviled for revealing the face of that other god - that god of negation."

What could this be referring to? It doesn't say the KCCM created the OD, but it implies that had something to do with its emergence.

[HoosierDaddy]

Crazy theory time! The Che'Maile created the OD and that is the curse set upon Mother Dark. (The TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT!)

[Abyss]

Midnight Tides, mmpb p 98 - Trull, Rhulad, and Fear are in the ravine looking at Scabby's holy skull (heehee, see what i did there?)... transcript is approximate because i'm lazy...

Rhulad: That's skull can't be Scabby Bloodeye!
Fear: It is. They killed our god. And stop trying to shag my fiancee you little pissant.
Trull: Who? And by that i mean who killed scabby, not who is your finacee, because i know Mayen and she is a fox... put the sword down Fear...
Fear: All of them. Elder Gods. And eleient. the Edler Gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescibable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. And elder god named Kilamandaros shattered his skull. And the next idiot who comments on Mayene is cleaning up after dinner.

So... while admittedly everything any Edur says about history is questionable, the part about Kila crushing Scabby's head is correct. which suggests that befor eshe did that, some terrible child of the dragons hunted him down and softened him up.


I take the Che'malle ref to 'negation' as the worship they evolved, as opposed to a ref to any particular entity, altho logically the Otataral dragon could link to that.


- Abyss, ...anyways that's my theory and i'm sticking to it...

[Aooga]

well...I just finished the book last night and of course this board is the first place i visited. In a way it sucks that everyone has had a massive head start on the discussion and it took me a while to go through this whole thread. Ironically I got more questions now then I did before reading all your crazy (but well thought out) theories.

So I'm just gonna go ahead and throw out some questions and hope someone deigns to answer:

- What ritual are the FA preparing in Kolanse?
- what was Repose doing in the Liosan warren?
- the whole sea of light at the first shore and the blah blah on the Shake legends went over my head. Edur came from the Shake who came from where and what were they doing at the First shore?
- Is Iccy dead or will he now be the guardian of the Azath? Is it even a new Azath or what?
- When the Akryianni princess and her handmaiden are talking about how they can get a message across to the queen a chain appears in the smoke as an omen. (sorry for lack of quote fu so will instead employ The Force). what's the chain omen gotta do with summoning Mael?
- So where did these 14 undead Jaghut come from? I know WJ sent them to help out Kalyth but they say they don't answer to Hood? Also why do they keep laughing and who was their war against?
- Are the Stormriders basically human with magic armor? Ruthan's apperance would suggest so. I always suspected the Stormriders were some sort of wilder offshoot of the Jaghut due to the whole aspect of Ice.

I think i'll stop now, wait for some feedback and rally with some more questiosn at a later point.

Thanks in advance.

[Abyss]

Aooga, on 04 November 2009 - 07:49 PM, said:

- What ritual are the FA preparing in Kolanse?

Uncertain but whatever it is the CG is involved and its bad. probably some way to free him.

Quote

- what was Repose doing in the Liosan warren?

Also uncertain. There was also the FA the Whithal, Sandy and the Nachts encountered. One theory runs there are FA patrolling the warrens to keep away intereference with the ritual.

Quote

- the whole sea of light at the first shore and the blah blah on the Shake legends went over my head. Edur came from the Shake who came from where and what were they doing at the First shore?

The Andii in Kurald Galain were riven with civil war, then the Liosan showed up and started killing them. One group of part-blood Andii slaves escaped to become the Shake. I think.

Quote

- Is Iccy dead or will he now be the guardian of the Azath? Is it even a new Azath or what?

It is a new Azath but iccy's status is anyone's guess.

Quote

- When the Akryianni princess and her handmaiden are talking about how they can get a message across to the queen a chain appears in the smoke as an omen. (sorry for lack of quote fu so will instead employ The Force). what's the chain omen gotta do with summoning Mael?

Good question.

Quote

- So where did these 14 undead Jaghut come from? I know WJ sent them to help out Kalyth but they say they don't answer to Hood? Also why do they keep laughing and who was their war against?

They were hanging out in one of Hood's stray death warrens, not serving Hood but it was a convenient place to kill time (pun intended). WJ and co found them when they took over the gates post TtH finale and became allies.

The laughing thing suggests they are more than a little nuts, which makes sense when you're an immortal who went to war against death but ended up undead and hanging out in death's basement for a few hundred thousand years. Plus overactive sense of irony.

The war was the Jaghut Crusade against Death, mentioned in TtH.

Quote

- Are the Stormriders basically human with magic armor? Ruthan's apperance would suggest so. I always suspected the Stormriders were some sort of wilder offshoot of the Jaghut due to the whole aspect of Ice.

NoK suggests strongly that the 'Riders are humans aspected with some form of Omtose Phellack. Gudd himself doesn't seem to be a 'Rider, but he had one of their swords.


- Abyss, ...ice ice baby...

[Traveller]

Since someone else will probably answer those in detail (go, 'Byss!), I'll just add another question...

Was there any significance to Badalle's (soul-travelling) presence at Hetan's death?

She was dead before dawn. I held her broken soul in my hands. I hold it still. As Rutt holds Held.

It's probably just a passing moment; Hetan was gone before her physical death - I just wondered at the words, as I forgot about Badalle being there
the first time I read it.

I hold it still. (just hoping I guess, as that whole story arc made me mad as hell - I wanted more of the Hetan from MOI).

This post has been edited by Traveller: 04 November 2009 - 08:39 PM

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 04 November 2009 - 08:23 PM, said:

Since someone else will probably answer those in detail (go, 'Byss!), I'll just add another question...

Was there any significance to Bedalle's (soul-travelling) presence at Hetan's death?...

Badalle's whole soul-wandering/viewing thing was unclear. It may have been a function of her awakening Mokra warren. It seemed as tho she was being drawn to certain events. We've seen this before with Cutter in TB when he observed the QoD freezing Leoman and Dawnsparrow, and with Toc when he observed Trake's 'death' and Lady Envy's group. The implication is that gods are guiding certain people to view certain things for certain reasons.

- Abyss, not so certain.

[Ulrik]

Abyss, on 04 November 2009 - 08:16 PM, said:

NoK suggests strongly that the 'Riders are humans aspected with some form of Omtose Phellack. Gudd himself doesn't seem to be a 'Rider, but he had one of their swords.


- Abyss, ...ice ice baby...

I think its clear that Gudd isnt Stormrider. He says something like "look like that stormrider crap works"...well, it doesnt sound like someone familiar with Stormrider culture;)