[Arkmam]

The only info I remember about learning to use the warrens are that "you don't pick the warren, one will come to you in time" or something like that. I don't think that there is much else told yet.

[Jorram]

I have the persistent memory that his warren was actually none of the ones known to us from later books and end-of-book references.

Are you sure it was Mockra? I dont have the book with me right now...

p.s. his name was Callot, i think..

[Rich the Great]

quote:

Originally posted by Serenity:
As to the matter of whether Mokra can blow a hole in a wall- or perform other 'physical acts'. I recall that in MT Corlo boils the brain of several people in an attack. That would have to be a physical, although aspected to suit the power that he is using... the mind. So maybe you can only do things with your warren that are similar to it. Mokra is mind so it can boil brains. Dunno, and I can't recall any other circumstances...

Corlo used Mockra to instigate the idea of their brains boiling, and their bodies did the rest, deceived by their minds.

[Monoch Ochem]

quote:

On Denul. the way the warren seems to work is through touch, even in the case of Caladan's High Denul, but i do not see why a user could not stop someone's heart if they had that inclination, but as Ceda said, it would be unlikely for a healer to do such a thing

But Karnadas told one of the riders to draw upon his warren if necessary, and he did (it exhausted him) so touch may not be essential.

The warrens still remain a mystery but it seems they are repositories of a force. In the case of KG, that force is alive (MD). I reckon that it therefore remains to the medium (mage) how s/he uses the force. I think that mage who was killed by Gryllen in DG was the first I came across to use actual words. Later, I read of 'chaining words' etc. It looks like you can control the warren to form a shield around you (wards), to weave sensitive paths for questing purposes (this is just my speculation- the K'Chain Che'Malle were weaving threads of sorcery in MoI, as did Bidithal in HoC), and to unleash the energy within the warren in a destructive force, according to its aspect and the power of the mage. There are also spells (Blue Pearl), geas (Bauchelain)...

Tattersail was described as an Adept. Think of it. The Deck is inextricably linked with magic. All mages therefore have some understanding of it. She however, showed exceptional talent. It follows (and there are other examples) that some mages are more naturally gifted than others and so may be able to use their warrens in more potent ways. It clearly takes a physical toll, which is why T'lan Imass Bonecasters are so formidable: they don't tire.

[Tes'thesula]

hello

I'm not completely sure whether this has appeared in the books anywhere, so perhaps the more elightened among us can educate me

How does a sorceror learn his or her arts? are there academies is it more or a master/apprentice job? or does a mage simply teach themselves? what does everyone think

Another question: does every warren allow their user to manifest its power in a destructive form? e.g could a user of mockra, path of the mind, blow a hole through a wall?

Cheers

oh as an aside, could someone tell me why we assume that a mere stratch will cause dragnipur to trap your soul, i always assumed you needed to kill the trapee. thanks

[Monoch Ochem]

Hi Vaisk, I certainly missed you guys! It seems that some mages are more naturally inclined than others and probably "take to" magery better than others. Seren Pedac, for example, seems pretty adept at Mockra, even though she's no mage. Bear in mind, sorcery sometimes comes with the role....Ganoes, for example. And priests can call upon their gods/deities.

And those books may not just be GotMism Dakkareth. Kuru Qan seemed pretty academic and he had pupils. He'd also sent Nekal Bara to do research on that sea-god. I'm sure spells are written down somewhere. Thank God SE didn't adopt tht foolish approach in Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance Chronicles series where mages have to memorise their spells constantly.

[Tenaka Khan]

quote:

Illusions - Meanas has been ref'd more than once as a warren of shadow and ilusion. Who says QB used Mokra on the pannions?

I guess you're right, he probably rather used Meanas than Mockra against the Pannion (time for another reread methinks). Perhaps QB is able to conjure illusions by making use of his mastery of other warrens, weaving them together to make them that destructive. Since there are not many mages around with the same level of proficiency with more than say one or two warrens, this might explain why he is able to pull such powerful illusions off while others aren't.

On general mage education, it does seem that there are no real schools of sorcery in the Malazan world. Thus I guess most of them are naturals who just get better with experience. Of course that doesn't exclude that experienced mages may school others to make their progress easier. It just doesn't seem to happen a lot. Mayhaps they are all pretty egocentric about their skills, i.e. not willing to share some of their (hard)earned powers.

Just my two cents

[fan_83]

anput qb illsion vs the pannion.. i would guess hes blending his warrens to get the effect..

and about learning...

most mages outside of the big cities or in armies are probably naturals who are stumbling around.. and are called hedge witches i think..

the ones in cities adn in armies will probabaly be trained by the higher ranked mage... cos the more mage you have the better..

and theres also teh matter of the naturals stumbling around and draw too much into themseld adn thus killed themselves...

[Abyss]

Couple of points:

Spellbooks - appear to be a GotM'ism, but perhaps could be rethought of as books of research. Tattersail was an academic of sorts, and clearly Hairlock had done some research to figure out both the soul transfer thing and how to delve into Chaos.

Illusions - Meanas has been ref'd more than once as a warren of shadow and ilusion. Who says QB used Mokra on the pannions?

QB - I'm fairly sure the 'Seven within me' thing is a GotMism, since in MoI he hit Bauchelain and Korbal with six warrens each. Easily explained as a bit of deception for the sake of the Daru Cabal sorceress who was watching.

Denul - Both Brood and Mallet showed themselves to be capable of violence, altho' they didn't use their warrens for it. The Grey Swords drew on Karanadas from a distance, based on some link between them, presumably fashioned by Fener before Heboric yanked him down.

As for magic in general, it appears that natural talents can learn to do any number of things, but actual learning offers more options and skill and probably eventual strength. Cadre mages in the malazan army appear to be naturals for the most part, with some talent they developed before becoming a soldier and putting that talent to a use of sorts, a la Bottle and Blend. And from the Bhargast/Rhivi spirits, the wax witches and other bits, we've seen there are other forms of magic beyond drawing on a warren.


- Abyss, draws on warren zevon at times.

[fortyseven]

Making realistic illusions is probbably VERY hard. Of course QB can do it. But how many others can?

[Abyss]

Curiously, in GotM, the cadre mage whose name escapes me who was gettin-it-on with Tattersail at the beginning was identified as using Mokra, and he supposedly sheilded T'sail from the assorted magics flying around during the sorcery enfilade at Pale.

But that could very well be a GotM'ism.

- Abyss, mocks really well.

[vaiski]

Good to see you back, Monoch

[Cause]

i also did not liek that part. It also seemed to make illsuions too powerfull. Capturing ten demons is difficult and as such I would not mind a mage unleashing 10 and having them do real damage but if qb can just make ten demon illusions kill as easilly as the real thing why does anyone bother with the real thing.

[Tenaka Khan]

Let's muddy the waters a bit About the use and effect of warrens: When QB created illusionary demons to fight the Pannion Domin at the end of MoI, I guess he used Mockra. And since the enemy was so cinvinced that the demons were real, the illusions could actually harm them. I don't really see how this is possible (erm, I know we're talking about fantasy here... ). When Corlo boils the brains of the robbers, I'm getting the idea that the body acts on what the mind believes to be true. But in the case of QB unleashing the 'demons', I don't really see it.

What is bugging me about that particular scene is the fact that normally SE's world feels realistic, but that was just a bit too, erm, fantastic imo. Any thoughts?