[Grief]

tiam, on Aug 25 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Kalam is good with what he has. But in a contest of who is the best assasin he only way to judge that is who could sneak into a heavily warded and guarded compound and take their target then yes Dancer would be better. To say magic gives them certain advantages nd everyone whether a mage or not should be judged fairly is not ho is the best assasin it who is the best with what theyve got. For example Pearl, according to his boasts in BH, could have magicked his way into yghatan and killed leoman. Kalam, who i think we all regard as better, couldnt do that. Therefore pearl is technically a better assasin. Another example could be in HOC when Kalam says hed have to think it through about how to get past all those guards around Korbolo Doms tent and the only way he could is through Ash's distraction. Pearl,Cotillion, Vorcan etc could all magic there way behind lines of men and have that edge. Now Kalam s very good at what he does with the skills he has an i love Kalam. But the practicalities are that magic is better than no magic therefore mages make better assasins

Not more skillful though. And who could do more is a pointless discussion-particularly when one of them is a god.

"Who could sneak into a heavily warded and guarded compund and take their target"

Is a bad argument. For one the word "could".Because since we have no basis for comparison(they haven't all tried to assassinate same person same circumstances etc) the discussion is hypotetical-who could do better in a certain circumstance. And since it is hypothetical, then hypothetically the answer to that question is still Rake, Gothos, Mael and all the other powerhouses. Because they could do it far better than any of the people being brought up.

That is why I dislike the argument of "who could do a certain thing better" or even worse "who would win in a fight". Because in a hypothetical situation, those who could win in a fight, or who could perform the best assassination-wouldn't. They're not assassins. But if they wanted to assassinate-they could do it more effectively than the others because of the tools they have to perform the tasks. Which is why I don't think the tools availible should decide that kind of thing-it certainly doesn't for me anyway-because it is to my mind a question of skill, not power, since that is a fair comparisson in the hypothetical realms, as it isn't dependant on factors such as power.

[tiam]

my point was to say that magic gives certain assasins an advantage that cannot be overlooked in regard to skill and fairness. All these threads are hypothetical and theres no way to judge them against each other hence my generic assasin mission. What exactly do you mean then in terms of skill.

[Grief]

tiam, on Aug 25 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

my point was to say that magic gives certain assasins an advantage that cannot be overlooked in regard to skill and fairness. All these threads are hypothetical and theres no way to judge them against each other hence my generic assasin mission. What exactly do you mean then in terms of skill.

Yes, magic cannot be overlooked-but it should be taken into account.

What i mean by in terms of skill is that:

Magical assassins should be judged by how much skill they have wielding their regular skill and magic. How skillful they are with all their abilties. What they can achieve with all their skills, balanced against what skills they have(magic being the prime example). So, what they can achieve with what advantages they have. For example from what we know it takes comparitively a lot of skill for things cotillion to do things he does(compared to say how difficult it would be for say cowl or an andii mage assassin). We also know it takes comparitively a lot of skill for Kalam to do the things he does(compared to say Rallick) so both are obviously very skillful at what they do.

To compare them you have to consider how much the advantages make a difference-does it take more effort for kalam to achieve a task that presents him with a challenge, than it does for cotillion to complete another task(that is obviously more difficult as he has more advantages). The theoretical tasks must be compartively even-the task a mundane assassin would do taking the same level of skill to complete as one for a mage assassin with the advantage of magic.

So basically, is it more impressive for an assassin to complete an easier task, or for a mage assassin to complete a harder one-considering the magic makes it easier. It comes down to how much harder the mages task is, and how much the magic is an advantage.

For example, I find some things Kalam does without magic more impressive than those Cotillion achieves with his enhanced powers-even though cotillions achievement may be impossible for kalam.

Which is how I judge-not just on who's more powerful.

[relek nom]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Aug 20 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

I looked around for a thread like this but couldn't find one...so anyways, here's my top then, lemme kno wat u think.

1. Dancer/Cotillion
2. Vorcan
3. Cowl (just goes ahead of Laseen because he is a mage as well)
4. Laseen
5. Apsalar
6. Topper
7. Kalam
8. Taya
9. Rallick
10. Cutter

For what its worth my opinion on 3-8 could change at any time, but thats how I was feeling when I set this up.

im not sure which book its in ( think bonehunters) but there is a conversation were after Apsalar kills off a city of claw Shadowthrown says ' Not even Cotillion could do as you have done' . i realise this is not the direct quote but its along thoes lines.

anyway the point im making is given this fact she should rank higher, above lassen given the fact Cotillion trained Lassen.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

relek nom, on Aug 27 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Aug 20 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

I looked around for a thread like this but couldn't find one...so anyways, here's my top then, lemme kno wat u think.

1. Dancer/Cotillion
2. Vorcan
3. Cowl (just goes ahead of Laseen because he is a mage as well)
4. Laseen
5. Apsalar
6. Topper
7. Kalam
8. Taya
9. Rallick
10. Cutter

For what its worth my opinion on 3-8 could change at any time, but thats how I was feeling when I set this up.

im not sure which book its in ( think bonehunters) but there is a conversation were after Apsalar kills off a city of claw Shadowthrown says ' Not even Cotillion could do as you have done' . i realise this is not the direct quote but its along thoes lines.

anyway the point im making is given this fact she should rank higher, above lassen given the fact Cotillion trained Lassen.

Yea after she wipes out the claw in Malaz City ST shakes his head and says "Not even Cotillion..." I"ve seen a few threads where ppl argue back and forth over what that means, theres no real consensus though. And why do you think Cotillion (or Dancer to be specific) trained Laseen (or Surly, since I added the Dancer part)? Just because they worked together doesn't mean she is his student. I mean, Tayschrenn may have picked up some things from Kellanved, but I think you'll agree he wasn't trained by him.


Edit: Oh yea, Welcome to the boards.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 28 August 2009 - 02:48 AM

[The Crow]

Silencer, on Aug 20 2009, 09:51 AM, said:

So:
Cotillion
Apsalar
Laseen
Topper
Cowl
Kalam
Taya
Cutter
Rallick
Pearl

This. Or close to this. Excellent reasoning, most of it based on stuff that actually happens in the books, not speculation.

Only things I would keep open for discussion would be the fact that I think that Kalam is better than Cowl, and that I believe Pearl should be over Cutter/Rallick.
But that's just my personal opinion.

[Icarium Kalam]

Apsalar is top the only one she wouls struggle with is Dancer

[Grief]

Icarium Kalam, on Aug 29 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Apsalar is top the only one she wouls struggle with is Dancer

Please add explanation, for example, why someone who's assassination skills originate with someone else would be better than that person who is the god of assassins. Apsalar is a shadow of Cotillion-but not as good in my opinion.

[Hinter]

Grief, on Aug 29 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Icarium Kalam, on Aug 29 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Apsalar is top the only one she wouls struggle with is Dancer

Please add explanation, for example, why someone who's assassination skills originate with someone else would be better than that person who is the god of assassins. Apsalar is a shadow of Cotillion-but not as good in my opinion.

As WhiskeyJackDaniels mentioned above, after Apsalar had torn through the claw in Malaz City Shadowthrone expressed his amazement at her feat and said something similar to WJD's quote above (I'll try to track it down as I have the book handy). I must admit I was surprised as I would have put Dancer above everyone else, let alone the god Cotillion.

[Hinter]

Found the quote:

Quote

A scrawny, shadowy apparition appeared before her near the far end, where the alley reached a side street just this side of a bridge leading across the river and into the Mouse. Apsalar halted before it.
"Tell Cotillion, I have done as he asked."

*snip*

"I watched, my dear. Your Shadow Dance. From the foot of Rampart Way and onward, I was witness."

She said nothing.

Shadowthrone resumed. "Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion."

My previous post in this thread shows I don't really take these "best of..." threads seriously but if ST himself reckons Apsalar is better than Cotillion, not Dancer but Cotillion the GOD, then surely she must be at the top of any assassin list.

But we haven't heard the last of Cowl yet, Mwahahahahaha....

[tiam]

Grief, on Aug 25 2009, 10:31 PM, said:

tiam, on Aug 25 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

my point was to say that magic gives certain assasins an advantage that cannot be overlooked in regard to skill and fairness. All these threads are hypothetical and theres no way to judge them against each other hence my generic assasin mission. What exactly do you mean then in terms of skill.

Yes, magic cannot be overlooked-but it should be taken into account.

What i mean by in terms of skill is that:

Magical assassins should be judged by how much skill they have wielding their regular skill and magic. How skillful they are with all their abilties. What they can achieve with all their skills, balanced against what skills they have(magic being the prime example). So, what they can achieve with what advantages they have. For example from what we know it takes comparitively a lot of skill for things cotillion to do things he does(compared to say how difficult it would be for say cowl or an andii mage assassin). We also know it takes comparitively a lot of skill for Kalam to do the things he does(compared to say Rallick) so both are obviously very skillful at what they do.

To compare them you have to consider how much the advantages make a difference-does it take more effort for kalam to achieve a task that presents him with a challenge, than it does for cotillion to complete another task(that is obviously more difficult as he has more advantages). The theoretical tasks must be compartively even-the task a mundane assassin would do taking the same level of skill to complete as one for a mage assassin with the advantage of magic.

So basically, is it more impressive for an assassin to complete an easier task, or for a mage assassin to complete a harder one-considering the magic makes it easier. It comes down to how much harder the mages task is, and how much the magic is an advantage.

For example, I find some things Kalam does without magic more impressive than those Cotillion achieves with his enhanced powers-even though cotillions achievement may be impossible for kalam.

Which is how I judge-not just on who's more powerful.

Again Kalam IS good at what he does. Thes best of threads never work because of the specifications. It has nothing to do with whether it would be harder for a mundane mage to do something than a mage to do something. The fact of the matter is the best assasin is one who can do the most perform the most difficult assasinations. It not simply saying Kalam is better because even tho he doesnt have magic hes still a good assasin. This should only really be a competition beetween Cotillion, Apsala or possibly Vorcan

[Grief]

Hinter, on Aug 29 2009, 11:10 PM, said:

Found the quote:

Quote

A scrawny, shadowy apparition appeared before her near the far end, where the alley reached a side street just this side of a bridge leading across the river and into the Mouse. Apsalar halted before it.
"Tell Cotillion, I have done as he asked."

*snip*

"I watched, my dear. Your Shadow Dance. From the foot of Rampart Way and onward, I was witness."

She said nothing.

Shadowthrone resumed. "Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion."

My previous post in this thread shows I don't really take these "best of..." threads seriously but if ST himself reckons Apsalar is better than Cotillion, not Dancer but Cotillion the GOD, then surely she must be at the top of any assassin list.

But we haven't heard the last of Cowl yet, Mwahahahahaha....

That line could have multiple meanings and has been discussed before.

For one it could easily mean "not even has done something like that"-not could.

Just because cotillion hasn't done something like that doesn't mean that he couldn't. Also, i'm not sure Kellanved would know the limits of cotillions skill-because cotillion hasn't really demonstrated much within the books etc.

@tiam-the argument of who could do most doesn't work though-because it wouldn't be any of them if it's just a question of raw power in a hypothetical discussion.

[Abyss]

Modgod Notice of Doommmmmmmm

Apt and Grief's posts deleted. Don't fkuc with DoD spoilers people. I know you were kidding, but you're just begging for some less clever person to post "oh, did you mean...?" and ruin something for someone.


- Abyss, like the wrath of a cold angry god, only cuter...

[Night Hawk]

I would switch Rallick and Cutter, personally. He's shown a good measure of improvement.

Spoiler

In TTH Cutter got the better of Rallick.

This post has been edited by Night Hawk: 02 September 2009 - 05:58 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

This isn't really on topic with the post, but I didn't feel like it needed a whole new post to be answered. Do we know who the female claw that Topper talks to and then kills in the Imperial Warren is? I originally thought it was Apsalar (until he killed her so easily) because he talked about recognizing her style and it had been a long time since he'd faced it. She mentioned her father taught her. It seems like we should know who she is, do we?

[Aptorian]

There's maybe dozen RCG threads discussing the woman Topper takes out. The search function is your friend.

It can be nothing but guess work anyway.

[Tiste Simeon]

I would put Dancer on their as a separate entity as Cotillion. I know they are the same people, but clearly Cotillion is far more powerful, being ascendant and all... Put it this way, could Dancer have taken out an entire squad of Edur with just a rope? I don't think so. Oh, no doubt he would have killed them all, but I doubt it would have been easy.

Also, I think that

Spoiler

Gu Rull, the Shi'gal assassin of the KCCM

should be included... (DOD Spoiler there... )

[The Deragoth]

I know I'm late as hell to this, but I just read the thread and while I see what Grief is trying to say I really don't like the idea of removing magic from the equation as if it isn't a skill, or as Grief appears to be trying to say an "assassin's skill".

There are a couple reasons for this. The first is simply that it isn't like magic is some sort of power "inheritance or trust fund" that the assassin did not earn. While I'm sure some are more easily able to master magic, the same is true for physical ability and intelligence in both the Malazan world and our own.

I see no reason to define assassination skills as non-magical stealth and knife-fighting skills. While that certainly represents a certain type of assassin I find it hard to believe that those are the "true" assassin skills. Many of the assassins in the Malazan world train and utilize magic specifically for assassination purposes. It's not like they were given(at least not always) +10 magic boots or something. They had to master their assassination techniques like anyone else. I just don't think you can pare the assassin down to the this bare bones figure archetype. Everything is situational, but I don't feel you can remove everything and say the knife fighting assassin is somehow the natural state of things.

The second reason is that more and more in the Malazan world it becomes difficult to differentiate between physical skill and magic. While he is not an assassin Karsa's personal warren is a good example. We know it helps with magic resistance, but does it play a part in his unnatural physical ability. Certainly his muscles are more dense than a human's, but that is true of all the Teblor. Not everything is as obvious as the shadow dance. Just how magical was Dejim Nebrahl? He harnessed blood like an elder good, but did that make his physical power magical? If Rake punches you in the face, is there a non-magical punch that he can use that doesn't harness any of his eleint blood?

Most on-topic of course would be Kalam. In this thread he appears to be the quintessential non-magic assassin and yet his lack of magic is in fact called into question several times. He talks about how time appears to slow down for him when he fights and it becomes obvious that he is in fact more dense that other people despite being able to move his mass quicker. I think it was Tavore who watched him and observed some oddities in BH. Physical skill exists in the Malazan world and out own, but when the differences becomes as astronomical as they do in the Malazan world, to the point of ascendancy, can simple physical training, wits, and genetic pre-disposition truly be the answer?

Considering these points I just don't see how magic can be removed from the area of "assassin skills" in any way.
My list starts with Dancer and Apsalar and probably follows up with Topper, Cowl and Kalam, but I really don't know how to place them.

[Silk]

Sorry All,

Apsalar has to be top as even Shadowthrone makes mention of the night in Malaz when she shadow danced and did what Shadowthrone says even Dancer couldn't do ....

Also got to take into account that when Apsalar saves QB and His sister from the hounds of shadow the hounds feel that he intervened .....

Cutter is also mention by Cottilion as underestimating his prowess... after all folloing in the footsteps of Apsalr he would have to be pretty good and he earnt his name the hard way ....

[End of Disc One]

Silk, on 11 September 2009 - 03:05 PM, said:

Sorry All,

Apsalar has to be top as even Shadowthrone makes mention of the night in Malaz when she shadow danced and did what Shadowthrone says even Dancer couldn't do ....

Also got to take into account that when Apsalar saves QB and His sister from the hounds of shadow the hounds feel that he intervened .....

Cutter is also mention by Cottilion as underestimating his prowess... after all folloing in the footsteps of Apsalr he would have to be pretty good and he earnt his name the hard way ....

Shadowthrone only said "not even Cotillion" which can be interpreted in multiple ways. It could mean that "not even Cotillion" expected her to have been able to do that. This board has argued to death over this issue, but it really doesn't make sense for Apsalar to be above Cotillion.