[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I looked around for a thread like this but couldn't find one...so anyways, here's my top then, lemme kno wat u think.

1. Dancer/Cotillion
2. Vorcan
3. Cowl (just goes ahead of Laseen because he is a mage as well)
4. Laseen
5. Apsalar
6. Topper
7. Kalam
8. Taya
9. Rallick
10. Cutter

For what its worth my opinion on 3-8 could change at any time, but thats how I was feeling when I set this up.

[Silencer]

Wait a second. You are putting Cowl above Topper - the man who chased him into the desperate act of self-Azathification?

Other than that I tend to agree, with Cotillion firmly at the top, much like Rake/Dassem in terms of sword fighting, and the rest changeable. I also wouldn't put Vorcan as immoveable, like you did, though.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Silencer, on Aug 20 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

Wait a second. You are putting Cowl above Topper - the man who chased him into the desperate act of self-Azathification?

Other than that I tend to agree, with Cotillion firmly at the top, much like Rake/Dassem in terms of sword fighting, and the rest changeable. I also wouldn't put Vorcan as immoveable, like you did, though.

Yea, I didn't know what to do with Cowl, I mean the guy seems like he's the most badass person ever, but then from what we saw maybe not. I put him ahead of Topper because Cowl had been fighting a battle all day and night and into the next day, was fighting Possum and Laseen, and then Topper (who had been gearing up for this fight for god knows how long) jumped him from a warren. The self-imprisonment thing was so baffling to me that I kind of blanked it out of my mind. Vorcan seems pretty tough tho, she's a demon/high-mage/master assassin with renegade seguleh servants that took out all but 2 members of the T'orrud Cabal, and those were only saved by luck (literally). In a straight hand to hand fight like she would hafta have against Laseen and Rallick because of the Otataral she might be lower tho.

[Zanth13]

blah...

seeing cutter's punk ass on the an actual assassin list makes me want to puke...

I dont care what he did in TTH, i dont like him on the list...

i would rather see the lists stop at 9

blah

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Zanth13, on Aug 20 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

blah...

seeing cutter's punk ass on the an actual assassin list makes me want to puke...

I dont care what he did in TTH, i dont like him on the list...

i would rather see the lists stop at 9

blah

I was running out of names, and since it was him or Possum, and Possum's only two kills were on someone that let him, and someone on his own side, I gave it to the emo kid.

[Skywalker]

Cutter almost pwned Rallick in TtH... shouldn't he be above Rallick?

Also Cowl below Topper as already noted,

Finally, to me Vorcan/ Laseen/ Apsalar is a complete toss up. Vorcan is all kinds of awesome as we know, Laseen takes out Avowed for fun, and Apsalar is a demigodess...

[Zanth13]

no no no...

Cutter does not belong above anyone else on that list

anyone can get lucky... doesnt make you a better assassin...

IMO of course...IMO... and everyone is entitled to one... i wont go all Illy on you...

[Skywalker]

Cutter the Emo Assassin...

Oh I can imagine how the chicken of hate will take this...

FFFFFF....

[Aptorian]

are we talking about Ascendant and Mortal assassins in mix? If you're talking about a full talent spread you also have to take into account the other powers of the assassins, warrens, magical strength, technique, etc.

Then for me it would be:

1. Cots and Apsalar

Then a long stretch further down

3 Lasseen... I would like to put her here because I think she could beat the rest if she chose a battle ground where their magical capabilities were dead. She created the claw. But I'm not sure she has any magical power of her own.

4. Topper - Stronger than Cowl Apparently, but I think Lasseen is his better talent wise.

5. Cowl - If it wasn't for his turning crazy and self-azath'sing because Topper was kicking his ass, I'd had put him right under Cots and Aps.

6. Kalam

7. Pearl

8. Cutter

9. Rallick

I have no idea where on that list Vorcan fits, because I have a feeling she's more of a magical powerhouse than a pure assassin. But then again she was the master of the Darujistan assassins.

[lobo the wolfman]

Wouldn't Kalam be higher on the list, as it has been stated that he possibly could have been a match for Dancer when he was mortal. Also both Laseen and Topper believed that all the claw that was in Malaz City wouldn't be able to stop him.

I would put Kalam 3rd, below Dancer and Apsalar but above the rest.

[Aptorian]

Yeah, but we're talking about magic wielding assassins, not who's the best and toughest knife fighter. Kalam has no magic, his only chance would ever be surprise, which is all well and good, but if he was facing the likes of Cowl or an ascendant shadow dancer he would be deader than dead.

[lobo the wolfman]

I took the question to be who is the best assassin, not the best mage/assassin. The fact that quite a few assassins use magic to help them kill doesn't mean that they are skilled, they just have a advantage that can be nullified. I image that once their magic is gone a lot of assassins on that list wouldn't be as good as they would be otherwise.

Also as i stated above, Dancer a shadow dancer would have hesitated before taking on Kalam, that would mean that for all of Dancers magic he still wouldn't be sure he could win.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 20 August 2009 - 06:40 AM

[Urizen]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Aug 20 2009, 04:37 AM, said:

Silencer, on Aug 20 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

Wait a second. You are putting Cowl above Topper - the man who chased him into the desperate act of self-Azathification?

Other than that I tend to agree, with Cotillion firmly at the top, much like Rake/Dassem in terms of sword fighting, and the rest changeable. I also wouldn't put Vorcan as immoveable, like you did, though.

Yea, I didn't know what to do with Cowl, I mean the guy seems like he's the most badass person ever, but then from what we saw maybe not. I put him ahead of Topper because Cowl had been fighting a battle all day and night and into the next day, was fighting Possum and Laseen, and then Topper (who had been gearing up for this fight for god knows how long) jumped him from a warren. The self-imprisonment thing was so baffling to me that I kind of blanked it out of my mind. Vorcan seems pretty tough tho, she's a demon/high-mage/master assassin with renegade seguleh servants that took out all but 2 members of the T'orrud Cabal, and those were only saved by luck (literally). In a straight hand to hand fight like she would hafta have against Laseen and Rallick because of the Otataral she might be lower tho.

Vorcan might have officially taken out those T'orrud Cabal mages but TTH heavly implies that they let themselves be killed in order to avoid the upcomming confrontaion with the ever mysterious Tyrant..

[Silencer]

OK, I can see we're going to have the same problem here as we do in the best swordsman threads.

CLEARLY, if you take magic out of the equation, the list changes. There is one little problem with that. Some of these people are assassins who use magic to kill. Why? Otataral is rare, and magic is more powerful, more versatile, and more certain than knives - particularly when dealing with mages.

Let's put this simply - if the person uses something to assassinate someone in the series, and calls themselves an assassin, that IS them - as an assassin. You can't go around discounting it, or else ascendancy is irrelevant, Kalam's long knife becomes a non-factor, and yet the characters use these things in the series.

Ergo, Topper beats Cowl, because he beat Cowl - regardless of the fact that he was a part Tiste magic-user.
We know Dancer beat Cowl - humiliatingly, as shown by Topper's comments in RotCG - so Dancer (mortal) beats or at least equals Topper.
Laseen goes around killing Avowed with her BARE FEET - that being said, she's kickass...however her actual assassination skills are up for questioning. BUT, we know what she can do. Ergo, she goes above, say, Cutter - who would get his ass handed to him on a silver platter.
Cutter surprised and nearly defeated Rallick - I'd put these two close together, with Cutter on top based on certain evidence - not on speculation of what might have happened if Rallick was prepared.
Vorcan, as has been pointed out, was given easy kills by the T'orrud Cabal. She is also implied to basically be so superior in assassination techniques that she can threaten Brood, and is kind of like Laseen. Because we've seen NOTHING of her, she can't have a place. She's an unknown.
Taya, too, is fairly unknown, except that she killed Laseen - but was then 'defeated' by Topper, who simply forced her away (she clearly had no reason to hang around, plus lots of people teaming up on her). She's also clearly better than Pearl. Probably the most 'vanilla' assassin we've seen, actually. In terms of sneaking up, striking hard, and getting out.
Apsalar is as close to a copy of Dancer as we can get. She kicks around Hounds of Shadow. She kills Peral, in conjunction with 300 Claws. Yes, with a Shadow Dance. But that's what she used. You could argue that in a battle against an Otataral-wielding Kalam she wouldn't be able to - that is speculation, btw - but it is not relevant in terms of being the best assassin.

So, what this comes down to, is that the top people are, without question, Dancer and Apsalar. Ahem. *Cotillion* and Apsalar. Laseen and Topper are next on the list. Following them, Cowl/Kalam, then Taya, Cutter, Rallick, Pearl. Though Pearl is a bit more slippery - he could be above Cutter, even. Not Kalam though. He knew Kalam was better than him. Not an ambiguous "oh, that guy is so good - I'm scared", but "OH FUCK HE IS TOO GOOD I MUST POISON HIM WHILE HE IS WEAK OH SHIT".

So:
Cotillion
Apsalar
Laseen
Topper
Cowl
Kalam
Taya
Cutter
Rallick
Pearl

Note: Kalam is down there because of how freaked out he was when Cotillion did that thing in DhG. Once again, that was like Pearl's thing. No-way Kalam thinks he could beat Cots, even with his Otataral knife.
It's not perfect - there is plenty of room to move, save for those wanting to beat Apsalar/Cotillion. But then it becomes a matter of not enough evidence, and the whole "what if" situations.

[MTS]

Not another one of these threads...

[D'rek]

Silencer, when you said Pearl in Taya's bit I think you meant Possum.

Of course when we're judging single people then of course someone like Kalam or Possum who aren't magical powerhouses will rank lowly. Thing is, though, Kalam uses lots and lots of magic, he just doesn't wield it himself - he generally has QB or his past partner or some other powerful mage helping him out, and thus the circumstantialness and convolution kicks in...

[Silencer]

Ah, yeah. XD Possum it was.

Though his partnership with QB is kind of his 'modus operandi', he DID still do a lot of wetwork in BH without him. Which would have to be why he ranks that highly. One could then argue that Cowl is magically (supposedly...don't actually believe it - it's a bit like the revelation that Dancer humiliated Cowl, and prior to that it was thought they were fairly equal) close to Rake, which makes the inclusion of QB irrelevant, Laseen has Otataral, and Topper beat Cowl. So then the ranking holds.

[Grief]

Aptorian, on Aug 20 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, but we're talking about magic wielding assassins, not who's the best and toughest knife fighter. Kalam has no magic, his only chance would ever be surprise, which is all well and good, but if he was facing the likes of Cowl or an ascendant shadow dancer he would be deader than dead.

Otataral knife. From what we've seen, therefore, Cotillions magic wouldn't help him in the slightest. In fact, his godhood could even be a disadvantage, considering how badly a sliver of otataral messes up Poliel when she's in mortal realm, it would make Kalams knife an even more potent weapon.

It also nullifies any magic user.

So, i'm not going to say Kalam is best, but he's certainly up there with Cotillion-considering cotillion hesitated before risking a fight with him, and the fact that magic is no advantage and godhood could be a disadvantage.

[Grief]

Silencer, on Aug 20 2009, 10:11 PM, said:

Ah, yeah. XD Possum it was.

Though his partnership with QB is kind of his 'modus operandi', he DID still do a lot of wetwork in BH without him. Which would have to be why he ranks that highly. One could then argue that Cowl is magically (supposedly...don't actually believe it - it's a bit like the revelation that Dancer humiliated Cowl, and prior to that it was thought they were fairly equal) close to Rake, which makes the inclusion of QB irrelevant, Laseen has Otataral, and Topper beat Cowl. So then the ranking holds.

Not sure how well you could argue that considering the factors involved. It's like saying Skinner is as good as Dassem simply because he survived a fight from him-the evidence still suggests otherwise.

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Aug 20 2009, 11:20 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Aug 20 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, but we're talking about magic wielding assassins, not who's the best and toughest knife fighter. Kalam has no magic, his only chance would ever be surprise, which is all well and good, but if he was facing the likes of Cowl or an ascendant shadow dancer he would be deader than dead.

Otataral knife. From what we've seen, therefore, Cotillions magic wouldn't help him in the slightest. In fact, his godhood could even be a disadvantage, considering how badly a sliver of otataral messes up Poliel when she's in mortal realm, it would make Kalams knife an even more potent weapon.

It also nullifies any magic user.

So, i'm not going to say Kalam is best, but he's certainly up there with Cotillion-considering cotillion hesitated before risking a fight with him, and the fact that magic is no advantage and godhood could be a disadvantage.

Your ottataral knife is not going to help you when the assassin mage is standing thirty meters away from you, cloaked and holding a crosbow, or he's using warrens to jump in and out of the world to confuse your attempts at tracking him. Or when you're charging him with your ottataral knife and he makes a gargoyle fall off the nearest tower and flattens you. Etc. etc. A clever assassin choses his battles and he would avoid fighting an ottataral wielder if it wasn't to his advantage. Again, its an assassin thread, not best knifefighter thread.