[Epiph]

Tiste Simeon, on Sep 3 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

Epiph, on Sep 3 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

The wolf girl was likewise a storyline begun in RG, and arguably MoI.

Huh? The first we heard from her is in RG when she runs from the Letherii troops and then lives with wolves until they all get killed by the Barghast...

That's why I said arguably.

In MoI, the Grey Swords become dedicated to the Wolves, and get Toc as the Mortal Sword, and head off to Letheras, where they get slaughtered and their hearts are eaten by wolves. In RG, a little girl's family gets slaughtered and she runs off to live with some wolves, who then abandon her, and she is found by the Barghast. In DoD, we learn that the Barghast call this girl (who is HOW OLD?)...what is it? The Carrier of 1000 Hearts or something? And she's the Destriant to the Wolves? So really, she's a continuation of the Grey Swords story in MoI.

[Tiste Simeon]

Epiph, on Sep 3 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

In MoI, the Grey Swords become dedicated to the Wolves, and get Toc as the Mortal Sword, and head off to Letheras, where they get slaughtered and their hearts are eaten by wolves. In RG, a little girl's family gets slaughtered and she runs off to live with some wolves, who then abandon her, and she is found by the Barghast. In DoD, we learn that the Barghast call this girl (who is HOW OLD?)...what is it? The Carrier of 1000 Hearts or something? And she's the Destriant to the Wolves? So really, she's a continuation of the Grey Swords story in MoI.

Oh yeah... They said they were looking for a Destriant I think. My bad.

[Epiph]

Tiste Simeon, on Sep 3 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

Oh yeah... They said they were looking for a Destriant I think. My bad.

Well, it's not immediately apparent. I realized midway through writing that post that her storyline was actually the Grey Swords storyline and started in MoI.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ugh, i don't wanna be a bastard, or uncharitable or anything, but please, people, stop asking SE to write books that are like MoI and DHG, he already wrote two books like those ones, they're called MoI and DHG. the story has moved on and everything has evolved. there's no looking back. so just forget about laying the MoI frame onto DoD, TtH or whatever. it wont fit. they are different books. the introspection has always been there, now it's just focused on the end like someone said above. rakes death is forcing everyones hand, as killy and mael discuss. everyones locked in the same room with the blades unsheathed, is it any wonder the mortals are getting despondent?

[Sixty]

Sinisdar Toste, on Sep 3 2009, 06:12 PM, said:

ugh, i don't wanna be a bastard, or uncharitable or anything, but please, people, stop asking SE to write books that are like MoI and DHG, he already wrote two books like those ones, they're called MoI and DHG. the story has moved on and everything has evolved. there's no looking back. so just forget about laying the MoI frame onto DoD, TtH or whatever. it wont fit. they are different books. the introspection has always been there, now it's just focused on the end like someone said above. rakes death is forcing everyones hand, as killy and mael discuss. everyones locked in the same room with the blades unsheathed, is it any wonder the mortals are getting despondent?

What?

They're discussing that Setoc's plotline is a continuation of the Grey Sword plotline from MoI. I don't see anywhere in this thread that suggests people were claiming DoD~=MoI in any way except maybe that both were great books.

[Sinisdar Toste]

page back or so, and i've heard it elsewhere. it wasn't a direct response to the post before mine.

[polishgenius]

It was a reference to the quality of the books, because it's a fairly common opinion that the series has gone downhill either after MoI or after MT, and although this one is an improvement on the more recent ones it's not quite at that level.

It was, I'm fairly certain, not a plea to write the same books again.

[presumingpete]

polishgenius, on 03 September 2009 - 11:31 PM, said:

It was a reference to the quality of the books, because it's a fairly common opinion that the series has gone downhill either after MoI or after MT, and although this one is an improvement on the more recent ones it's not quite at that level.

It was, I'm fairly certain, not a plea to write the same books again.

saying its gone downhill is a bit of an exaggeration, the last few books have had as many memorable moments as the first few, they're just different. personally speaking the more recent ones tth, rg dod are among my favourites

[MTS]

Ah, the Golden Age is magical in hindsight. Don't forget, we had just as many storylines people were bitching about back then. Felisin and the Mhybe, for example. Instead of rambling about the futility of it all, and the doom that approaches, we got many passages on the downsides of motherhood and the degradation of the human soul. It was fairly depressing. I think you guys are just putting both of those books up on a pedestal. Sure, they were fantastic, but in terms of awesomeness and brilliant storytelling, I wouldn't say there's been a depreciation of quality. They're just different books.

[flea]

Just finished the book. Great read,but not ready to fully praise it. Some great stuff people have already touched on. My main criticism is that in this second to last book there have been too many threads--more, I think, than TtH.

I have been thinking about Tavore. Whatever actually happened to her, SE CANNOT be through with her. He has set us up for her realization that she killed her sister, and has established the Paran family as central to the series--remember Ganoes Paran appears in the prologue of GotM? I expect some kind of reunion.

There are large questions remaining about her. Why do we never see anything from her point of view? Is she vulnerable in some way to the CG? (Before you think this odd, consider how flawed she seems, hence ripe for the CG).

I think it would be a huge artistic failure if there is no resolution to Tavore.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i totally agree with that, flea. and if you and me can realize that, i have complete faith in SE that he realizes it too. the MBotF could almost be a history the three paran siblings.

[snoman52]

This was from a while back in this thread but do we know SE won't be writing about Karsa anymore? With his connection to the Crippled God it seems like he would need to be in the final book in this main story arc.

[Sixty]

I thought that SE was going to expand upon Karsa in a later trilogy based on his efforts to conquer the world.


...Then again, he was told by Hood (via Picker from Toc's message) in TtH to stay in Darujhistan to kill a god. I still haven't gotten around to reading RotCG, but I doubt that plotline is resolved in that book.

So I dunno. It looks like Ublala and Draconus are about to break tCG's chains in Karsa's stead, though.

[Abyss]

I'm running the risk of overquoting so excuse the series of posts...

Illuyankas, on 18 August 2009 - 02:13 PM, said:

...
The last fifty pages.

God damn.

i KNOW.

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I'm pleased I guessed right about the SA and MS choices, but fuck me, the amount of awesome happening later on was ridiculous. I'm glad the KCCM are coming back, the world needs more science dinosaurs. Good to confirm that Iccy did learn mechanisms from the KCCM too.

Agreed on all fronts. Gesler and Stormy being abruptly forlded into the KC storyline like that was so very perfect, right down to the link between the bath they took in Kurald Thyrlland and dragons and why that made them ideal for the MS and SA roles.

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Also, Sinn is how powerful? Tays blasts bits off one skykeep that's run by people unable to read the manual, Sinn melts four fully functional ones at once.

I must have missed that. I thought it was Iccy in the Uprooted that took them out. Must needs reread.

Werthead, on 18 August 2009 - 03:06 PM, said:

So what's the damage to the Malazans? Just the heavies and marines wiped out and everyone else withdrew safely or that's pretty much all of them gone aside from a few survivors?

the visuals from Brys and Gesler/GuRull suggested the Bonehunters were hit hard. I'm thinking we're down to a thousand or less of the hardest.

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The smackdown between the skykeeps and the uprooted was cool. Icarium coming to the rescue (sort of) with all guns blazing was awesome. And WTF was that at the end, an Azath Tree? I'm guessing that's either Icarium dead and gone or imprisoned in the Azath thingamagic (foreshadowed by DHG, IIRC).

While the sudden link between Iccy and the KC storyline was jarring, yeah, icarium riding in to the rescue on a great big city shaped like a dragon was just sick. In a good way.

The Azath stone tree was invoked to close the massive gate the KN had opened to march their army and skykeeps into the world. It's the sort of thing Azath do, right back to GotM.

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Assuming a decent number made it out, is the Kolanse mission still viable? The Perish Grey Helms are intact and maybe the Bolkando forces will agree to join the army, potentially making up for at least some of the lack caused by the Bonehunters' annihilation. Tool seems disinclined to ally the Imass to the Malazans but maybe that will come in TCG. The KCCM also seem willing to help out, which will help a lot (but against a whole kingdom of Forkrul Assai? Hmm).

The Bonehunters, letherii and Khundryl survivors, the Perish and the Evertine legion and the Gilk, and GESLER AND STORMY'S PURE AWESOME KCHAIN CHEMALLE ARMY (I'm sorry, i'm sure that eventually i'll stop doing that...)

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...

Eleven Skykeeps are seen by Kalam and Quick Ben in TBH during their trip through the Imperial Warren

There were more iirc. When Iccy shoves the Uprooted into the Gate he sees LOTS.

Quote

...doubt Quick is dead.

SO not dead.


- Abyss, dead but got better.

[Abyss]

Chaeone, on 21 August 2009 - 03:49 PM, said:

QUOTE (Illuyankas @ Aug 21 2009, 04:27 PM) Rhulad's sword was made with bits of one.
Was not aware of that. But what is a Hust sword? is it imbued with some kind of power? like light and dark?

Not quite. Rhulad's sword was made from fragments of Silchas' short swords seen in MT, which were not Hust blades. Silch tossed his Hust blade at the Shore when the Watch found it. I think.

Lister of Smeg, on 21 August 2009 - 04:02 PM, said:

...Tavore must be alive to see out the last book. Without her, who is there to oppose Killy, Sechul and the rest?

Tavore is alive but i suspect that the Unbound are after her. Masan found the wrong Tlan Imass.

Quote

Same goes for Fiddler. I loved the way he made the Errant bleed with his Reading.

You read it here first. Paran is a feint. Fid is the real MoD. Ummm, maybe.

Quote

The K'Chain battle was indeed the epitome of awesome. I love Gesler and Stormy. I'm glad Erikson put a few moments of humour in there as well, though, otherwise it might have been too dark. Bent taking down that Nah'ruk was just inspired. I think Icarium hightailed it out of Kalse Uprooted before he got caught. Sulkit mentions being alone at the end. I think she will be the Guardian of the Azath. ...

Not quite. I suspect the point was that she was becoming a Matron and thus Mach would not actually be the only one around.

Quote

And who in their right mind would have predicted Draconus teaming up with Ublala Pung?

Only SE and this is why we love him.

Mappo, on 21 August 2009 - 07:10 PM, said:

Holy fnck balls, that was awesome. SE pulled out so many awesome lines right at the end. What a god, seriously.

Now, one thing confused me: the two unnamed Shi'Gal. Apparently their flavours are anathema to each other. How the hell could they then form an alliance? Didn't really make much sense to me. Plus, they ate her brain. Gross. Also, glad Gu'Rull didn't get sorcery'd into lizard meat. That guy is badass. In my head he's like that Markus guy in Underworld 2, 'cept with more eyes and way more awesome. What are peoples thoughts on Sulkit? That was an ambiguous scene at the end. She will be a Matron, that's for certain, but who is her Master?

Iccy was her master but he's gone and she's becoming a new Matron in her own right. One that happens to be sitting inside an Azath.

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Olar Ethil intrigues me as a character. I can't seem to pin down her allegiance, but maybe that's me being stupid. Is she with Knuckles and Killy, nominally at least? Or is she working at cross-purposes to them?

Complicated indeed but it's suggested that in her own way she is trying to save the world. And be a complete asshole about it.

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Lostara was Shadow Dancing those NR into pretty ribbons.

And it was awesome.

Quote

Guardians of the Road? Jeez, you're a clever bastard, SE.

MORE awesome.

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Those 14 Jaghut were bloody hilarious. Them annihilating those NR was pretty cool too. Them lining the ridge screamed awesome. And Hood! What a badass.
...

STILL MORE!!!

Egwene, on 21 August 2009 - 09:04 PM, said:

Oh, my eyes... I had three hours sleep last night, all thanks to Dust of Dreams!!

heh, same here zzzzzzzzzz....

Quote

- Best Deck reading ever
- Largest cast of speaking characters hanging of the cliff at the end ever seen in fantasy

yes and yes.

Lundos, on 22 August 2009 - 12:06 AM, said:

Before this gets out of hand with questions about who survived and what not, I have to ask: Was the annihilation of the Bonehunters really necessary? Or was that the betrayal? I mean QB talking about being in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't really cut it for me. SE's been writing page after page with these guys, and to just have them meaninglessly cut down isn't good enough - even if they kicked ass against a far superior foe.

My guess is most of our favorite characters survived. Almost all other than the already named dead. Everything else is too much to bear - even if the series is called Malazan book of the FALLEN.

The Bonehunters had to be hardened. Killing most of them should do it.

Mappo, on 22 August 2009 - 02:59 PM, said:

QB goes "little acorns, listen. Go for the drones - the ones with the packs. Forget the rest - for now." Also, Ruthan Gudd remarks that QB is forcing warrens to do "unspeakable things". So I'm fairly certain those were shaved knuckles. He was drawing on them for power, or directing it. When QB gets Rannalled, he raises his arms as the lightning strikes, so he knew what was coming. He ain't gone.

Oh hell no he ain't.

drinksinbars, on 22 August 2009 - 08:48 PM, said:

...
also anyone else feel certain that quick is a fucking elder god? seriously, when he learned draconus was back he said he would deal with him. and magus of dark, i cant remeber and am too buzzing now but we know one of his souls is andii or can at least summon kurald galain. it seems the farther the series goes the more qb breaks down. it seemed when the series started he wasnt really master of all the souls within him, but as things go on he just grows and grows. madness.
...

I am so there on that theory. grizzin farl, not so unaccounted for...

Urizen, on 22 August 2009 - 09:33 PM, said:

QUOTE (drinksinbars @ Aug 22 2009, 10:26 PM) plus olar is burn and everyone else it seems, didnt see that coming. deranged old hag.
I don't beleive that for a second.To me thhat was just Olar Ethil's own deranged meglomania talking.

A little of both i figure.


- Abyss, STILL to be continued....

[flea]

Based on the Destriant's words, how screwed are the Perish?

[Abyss]

More!!!!

tiam, on 25 August 2009 - 12:24 PM, said:

...But tbh the last hundred pages of DOD made Iccy seem not that powerful at all. which was kinda annoying

Disagree. Iccy unlaoded the entire force of his 'new' warrens along with his usual power to seal the gate and possibly summon an Azath. he also may have been powering the Unrooted on his own.

Veilside, on 25 August 2009 - 12:32 PM, said:

He was hit by the full power of the entire KCNR army, and the resulting crater was described as resembling that of hundreds of cussers, so he'd really have had to pull an amazing feat to get away from that one...

Or just gated out at the last second, as he has been known to do (see how he fooled tays in Blackwood).

tiam, on 25 August 2009 - 02:12 PM, said:

id say mostly the watch. Im sure that girl will turn out to be something razzle dazzle but the FA the watch fought seemed to be a fairly standard FA like the one that dropped Karsa and Trull and Co. It seems like, as someone said on another thrad, they have been watered down to give the human armies a better chance. It may turn out there half FA half human or some such plotline but even then unless the Watch turns out to be EG of toast id say its odd. ...

On the topic of the FA, it seemed pretty clear that Calm, Serenity and possibly even Repose were isolated FA who had stayed 'pure', while the Kolanse FA with their Acquisitor and Invigilator roles and their Mokra are possibly crossbred with humans and more than a little nuts (in a different way). Brayerale was anything but similar to FA we've seen before.

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Another incnsistency is the fact that Setchul Lath is pparently Oppons rival and father. In MT the Errant is the arbter of fate or some such and now Erikson has found way to turn the Errant into something else...

Not exactly.

The Errant started out as Master of the Tiles, became aspected to 'balance', clashing with the FA, and eventually turned to 'luck' but only in Leth. Knuckles was the original god of luck who created Oponn who aspected in the rest of the world, and then retired. So yes, there is overlap.

Illuyankas, on 25 August 2009 - 02:41 PM, said:

...As for Sechul Lath, I think he was usurped by Errastas first and made Oponn as a bit of revenge.

Also possible. They weren't exactly cuddly friends, those two.

Epiph, on 25 August 2009 - 03:17 PM, said:

...
That said, I tend to view the sudden rise of a seemingly average character not as unbelievable, but as evidence given to us that this character is special. And there seems to be a whole lot of power in the Shake and their memories. No Andii has managed to get back to Kharkanas since they left, and Twilight led thousands back. The Watch knew there would be Liosan hunting them, knew what an FA was, had already been shown to be bad ass enough to murder hundreds of witches and warlocks...

It was dozens, not hundreds, but i otherwise completely agree with you. The point was not to weaken the FA and Liosan, it was to show that the Watch was a major power. Just because we had never seen him fight before is no reason to assume he is 'average'.

presumingpete, on 25 August 2009 - 04:46 PM, said:

i see calm being an especially nasty FA thats why it was under a rock

That too.

Lister of Smeg, on 25 August 2009 - 06:01 PM, said:

I thought the FA following the children were weaker because there was something about the Glass Desert that disagreed with them. Badalle thought (and she was right) that they wouldn't follow the kids into the glass city for some reason (fear of Icarium?), so maybe the entire place is anathema to them.

Also, I agree with Illy when he says it took dragons to kill entire cities of FA, not just individual ones. And how many times have we seen elder powers brought down by newer ones due to arrogance? The FA that fought the Watch thought his magic would make the battle a foregoine conclusion. Yedan's resistance took it by surprise. That was my take on the scene, anyway.

Agreed on both counts.

Sinisdar Toste, on 25 August 2009 - 07:11 PM, said:

... the FA in the wastelands were seriously suffering some hardcore depredations, then to have a child usurp their holy voice and serve them? they were shit outta luck.

yeddan derrygs scene just screams to me of his potential, not the FA's weakening. it shows us more of yedans arcane knowledge. FA? hamstring the bastard. that'll stop his dancing. could he not have rolled under the blow and come up behind the thing?

then there's the FA that the nachts take out(coolest fracking thing ever by the way, "omg theys still nachts, just big as feck"), the one which cut through a horses neck with its hand. hm. they still seem pretty powerful to me.

Loved the bit with the nachts, and how even in their veered form, they kept acting like nachts.

Set, on 25 August 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

... considering the survivors of the snake survived by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the other 99%, and used what remained to fashion a defence against the flesh eating locusts, it doesn't seem how strong or quick or magic resistant FA are would be relevant. ...

I suspect the point was more that the children had hardened more than the Kolanse FA could grasp.

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Icarium and his city. The first thing that hit me when he attacked the skykeeps was not why isn't he wiping the floor with them but where the hell is his rage gone? Not even a whisper of anger, and he's in the middle of the most serious battle the world has seen since the gods knows when. ...

The Eres'al cured his rage in TB.

Quote

One last point for now. The Boles. Strength in rage seems to be a Jaghut thing, not just Iccy. I recall a few warnings in previous books about the peril of a Jaghut woken to rage. If they do turn out to be the hardest b@st@rds of the lot I wouldn't be surprised...

Mappo speculates that the Boles were w Jaghut experiment gone wrong. I really liked this explanation - how when he saw his brother kebab'd and Precious threatened, the Bole Bro lost it enough to punch the Shigal in the head and hurt it where Mappo had failed.

Urizen, on 26 August 2009 - 07:41 AM, said:

...The FA have seriously recieved a figurative de-testicle-ization. They have gone from being nearly impossible to kill creatures who seem able to survive anywhere to the weakest of the elder races. ...

As above, i disagree. We've seen again and again how elder races change with time - the Jaghut/Jhag, the Andii at Bluerose, the Edur on Leth, the Shake, the whole Thel Akai/Thelomen toblakai/Teblor/Tarthenal thing... why should the FA be immune? It makes sense that to survive over millenia the race ceased to be the survivalist uber sociopaths they started as and mixed with the humans who, we've seen again and again, tend to change other races in proximity. Put another way, why would a race made of individuals like Calm and Serenity even want to do what the FA in Kolanse seem to be doing? They wouldn't. They've changed.

Quote

I too liked Spax but I felt Spax and his Barghast where out of character, being content with hanging around the Bolkando not fighting. The general theme of DoD was that the Barghast had had it with Tool and his peace, love and understanding ways, yet we are supposed to accept Spax breaking away from Tool only to wind up in the same situation with the Bolkando.

The Gilk are repeatedly noted in MoI as being one of the more unusual White Face tribes.

- Abyss, still going...

[Abyss]

ISTN4249, on 26 August 2009 - 11:24 PM, said:

QUOTE (Illuyankas @ Aug 18 2009, 11:44 AM) And the Imass that didn't follow Tool - the remaining Unbound, now apparently no longer following the CG, for instance - could join.

where does it say they no longer follow the CG? they go to meet with the Bonehunters, who's ultimate goal is to free the Chained God. it would make sense that they still work for the CG then.

I did not read Urugal's dialogue as them having broken from the CG (hee see what i did there?). Quite the opposite, i think they have been sent to grab Tavore (see Felisin Fatter in TB), and Masan found the wrong Imass. Not that Tool and co were becoming all that cuddly at the time.

fafner, on 02 September 2009 - 09:48 PM, said:

is edgewalker the first price of the shake? we do know that he sees KE as his realm also that the shake are the first rulers of shadow. and he is death/undeath like most of the shake of that time.

Sech, Errant or Kila refers to Edgewalker as an Elder God who will not answer the Errant's call. Plus in Tb Edgy hinted at an alliance with Cotillion's faction.

Blacksox, on 03 September 2009 - 02:17 AM, said:

QUOTE (Optimus Prime @ Sep 2 2009, 06:13 AM) Just finished the book and after a change of pants I'm back!

The KCCM are awesome!!!!!! A book this awesome topped off with battling super lizards?!?!!? AMAZING!

This book tore me up. That scene where Silchas finds out Anomander is dead was just gut wrenching. I can't wait for Olar Ethil to die. It was cool how Rake was a presence even though he was dead, and god damn Draconus is back!!!!!

Hmmm.....Icarium used an eye to make a finnest...and Rake had an eye in his hand when he died....did he somehow store his power for someone else to use later? Yes, I know he's toast but perhaps he knew someone would need his power later. Interesting....

Poor Silchas And where the fuck is Osric?!?!?

I feel really sorry for Silchas Ruin. Seems like a really sad and tragic fated character. I also feel sorry for Hedge, since he has came back QB and Fiddler have really treated him like crap.

Agreed on all fronts, altho i really liked Fid's explanation for why he was avoiding Hedge.

Veilside, on 03 September 2009 - 09:31 AM, said:

QUOTE (Whiskeycrack @ Sep 3 2009, 01:19 AM) It seems that it is possible that Bottle has become something like a Divers but with the exception that he could become any type of creature due to his unique abilities in controlling animals

That's a bit of a leap, isn't it?

Actually, it's a pretty cool notion. We saw with Qb that being forced to extend yourself either kills you or makes you stronger.

Tiste Simeon, on 03 September 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Finished reading it a couple of days ago and have been enjoying reading this thread for most of the afternoon...

I am definitely with the "Flipping 'eck, this book is amazing!" crowd. I lost a lot of sleep the other night because I wanted to finish it... The final chapters are a true homage to Eirkson as a writer, and I nearly wept with the line "What sort of soldiers are these?" that Brys said... My thoughts are similar to many here, so I won't go too deeply into them, but I don't think QB is dead (however he did it), same with Bottle.

I also think that Ruthan Gudd could be Grizzin Farl...

I figure Ruthan or QB for Farl at this point...

Tiste Simeon, on 03 September 2009 - 06:55 PM, said:

QUOTE (Epiph @ Sep 3 2009, 07:35 PM) The wolf girl was likewise a storyline begun in RG, and arguably MoI.
Huh? The first we heard from her is in RG when she runs from the Letherii troops and then lives with wolves until they all get killed by the Barghast...

I suspect Epiph meant that the Barghast storyline goes back to MoI, since they adopt Setoc.



- Abyss, ...and now I'm up to date... sort of...

[Abyss]

flea, on 08 September 2009 - 02:48 PM, said:

Based on the Destriant's words, how screwed are the Perish?

extremely, or possibly not so much. Setoc seems destioned to pick up the gap in the Grey Helms' trinity, but Tenakalian was turning into a major problem, albeit Kruckhalian was aware of it.

Releatedly, i'm also wondering about the Wolf Gods' likely reaction if/when they find out Tavore's master plan is not to support another chaining, but to release the CG (or something).


- Abyss, hungry for more... hungry... (puts on sunglasses) ...like a wolf....

[Traveller]

Such an awesome ending.

I've gone straight to Midnight Tides since finishing, and it's amazing how much these two are linked.

A 1st time read of MT is like...'who the hell are all these people?'
2nd and 3rd shed a bit more light..

After DoD, though - so much more makes sense. DoD is great, but I love the way a new book will change the way you read the previous ones in the series as well.

I can't wait to have all 10 to read through...