[Sheve]

Was it Burns hammer that Draconus refers to when he is inside dragnipur, as the hammer he used to forge it with?

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I'd go with yes, as Caladan broke it and had a thought to himself of how Burn would be smiling.

[Aptorian]

Seconding the "yes, it was Burns hammer".

[Sheve]

Then on a related matter, i always thought that the hammer was created to wake burn.
She has only been sleeping for 1000 or so years?
Dragnipur has got to be shitloads older than that, or have i just misinterpreted that?

[tiam]

yeh its a bit of a mystery an i simply think the hammer is relic of burns thts been going for many years, long before she was chained, tho a quote from MOI cud disporve that saying it was forged so burn cud be woken.

Also further proof that its definitely broods hammer= In RG Withal has to take it back to the original smithy and use the original hammer to break the sword so it must have been Broods hammer

[Jorram]

Though i have to note I don't remember Burn's hammer being created specifically for the purpose of waking her, the truth is there isn't so much of a time difference actually.

At the time the CG was brought down to Wu (MOI prologue), Dragnipur is still not forged, leaving lots of possibilities that the forging was completed using a hammer created after that point. On the other hand it's true that Burn's sleep was maybe only related to the last chaining or so...

On a side note, in the RotCG prologue which is like gazillions of years before everything we've seen so far, Draconus is already working on the sword (as is strongly implied by the darkness around his hand). At the time of Kallor's empire he is still not done. Is he a crappy artificer, or yes?!?

[Silencer]

We're talking about the most powerful, 'evil' sword in existence. It contains the heart of a warren, designed to shield said heart from Chaos...and to chain the souls of all it kills (with but a minor wound, to boot) in this effort. That ain't something you come up with overnight, even if you're an Elder God.
Plus, RotCG was an ICE work - meaning the time discrepancies are...perhaps unintentional.

As for the hammer of Burn, I think the quote mentioned it had a singular purpose. But that is not to say it never had another. Just as long as you're not confused about why Burn waking up would kill the world when previously she has been awake - I remember that thread. XD

[Ain't_It_Just_]

tiam, on Jul 24 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

yeh its a bit of a mystery an i simply think the hammer is relic of burns thts been going for many years, long before she was chained, tho a quote from MOI cud disporve that saying it was forged so burn cud be woken.

Also further proof that its definitely broods hammer= In RG Withal has to take it back to the original smithy and use the original hammer to break the sword so it must have been Broods hammer

What? Where does it say that it was Brood's hammer?

[Sheve]

In RG Withal tells the Cg that to destroy a "unbreakable" weapon you ether have to find a more powerful weapon or take it back to the forge that made it.

The Hammer of burn could be both.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Sheve, on Jul 24 2009, 09:43 PM, said:

In RG Withal tells the Cg that to destroy a "unbreakable" weapon you ether have to find a more powerful weapon or take it back to the forge that made it.

The Hammer of burn could be both.

Fair enough assumption....but I doubt Brood would part with his hammer. Where would he get it anyway?

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I'll have to poke about in the text but between Draconus' thoughts to himself that Burn/A sleeping goddess (dont remember exact phrasing just came away reading that with mini sirens going "Burn") was outraged at him using her hammer to make the sword, and then Brood having to unmake it with the thought to himself that Burn would be pleased at this being done...

I dont think it was ever said anywhere that the hammer was made specifically for Caladan to use, only that Brood wandered for a while with Rake & Envy (as well as others) as they all did back then when not beating the snot out of each other, and after a period of absence returned with the Hammer.

Someone else could have been using it before, it could have just been in existence waiting for a suitable wielder, the previous holder having dropped it on his feet... you know how gods like to invest things and then leave it laying around the temple for Elders to waddle in, and use the spare parts floating about to forge magical soul sucking swords...

[D'rek]

Hey, K'rul's got a temple in Darujhistan after all, who's to say Draconus didn't get Dragnipur'd in the last 1000 years...

[Sheve]

Starting to slight get drunk here but.
The reason i asked this was because i was trying to see if i could work out some kind of "timeline" for dragnipur.
And in that something for the hammer to.

If Burn have only slept for 1000years and the hammer was made to wake her up, Rake must have killed draconus in those 1000 years, even if we have "proof" that draconus started working on it a long time before that,(this is ofc only possible if the hammer he refers to is burns) he still needed burns hammer to complete it.

But if the hammer existed before that, he could have done it anytime between MOI(cant remember when they curse kallor atm) prologue and whenever Rake kills him.

Have no real theory(or anything for that matter) yet, still trying to find the quotes and getting the facts.

And i know time line is not important, but that dosent mean its not interesting to research in.

This post has been edited by Sheve: 24 July 2009 - 07:24 PM

[Aptorian]

It is possible for a goddess to embue an existing weapon with a power. The Hammer could have been a billion years old for all we know.

[coltainereborn]

Aptorian, on Jul 24 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

It is possible for a goddess to embue an existing weapon with a power. The Hammer could have been a billion years old for all we know.

Its entirely possible that the hammer has been around for ages, and Brood gets it at some point, and then when burn takes her nap she gives the power to wake her into an already existing weapon.

Although this raises the question(s)- did brood help Draconus forge dragnipur, or did Draconus have the hammer himself. And did he use it to forge 'Grief' as well? If Draconus did have the hammer, did Rake give it to Brood after he took dragnipur? who made the hammer in the first place?

[Aptorian]

Well, to know when the hammer was used, we'd need to know when it got its chains. Burns hammer was used in making the chains.

If the void we see in the prologue of RCG had chains, then it is safe to assume that Brood did not exist back then, seeing as Brood is part Barghast... or was that human?... and they have only existed for some couple of hundred thousand years.

It is certain that Brood would not have helped, and its unlikely any other seavant of Burn would, seeing as it is stated that Burn was angry her hammer was being used as a common tool by Draconus to forge that monstrosity.

[Silencer]

coltainereborn, on Jul 25 2009, 08:41 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Jul 24 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

It is possible for a goddess to embue an existing weapon with a power. The Hammer could have been a billion years old for all we know.

Its entirely possible that the hammer has been around for ages, and Brood gets it at some point, and then when burn takes her nap she gives the power to wake her into an already existing weapon.

Although this raises the question(s)- did brood help Draconus forge dragnipur, or did Draconus have the hammer himself. And did he use it to forge 'Grief' as well? If Draconus did have the hammer, did Rake give it to Brood after he took dragnipur? who made the hammer in the first place?

And it certainly wasn't used to forge Grief! That was Anomander's creation, and it was his sword before he had Dragnipur - no relation to Draconus, other than the possibility that Rake used it to defeat him.
I think the fact that Drac forged Dragnipur in the heart of Burn wielding a hammer (one-handed, btw - O.o) that has numerous, albiet ambiguous, links to Burn would imply it was Burn's Hammer. That and the thing about "the only things that can break a nasty weapon are a nastier weapon, or the [was it hammer or forge] that it was [created by/in]".

EDIT:
Actually, I think one can assume that (though it would still be an assumption) that Draconus added the chains, or something, after Kallor's curse. Because the sword had a "finality" to it, prior to that curse, and Draconus, not wanting to be permanently dead, changed the sword to make it more possible for him to get out. He quite clearly stated that some changes would be needed to his design.
Though how that fits in with the relation to the RotCG prologue is hard to figure out. Given K'rul and Nightchill didn't know about the sword - I mean, the dude's been going around Dragnipur'ing folk...
One also has to wonder if, without the changes Draconus made, the flight of Darkness from Chaos would have been more successful? Did he, inadvertently, cause the entire events of TTH?

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think thats a pretty safe bet there Silencer. dont kalse ampelas and eloth, or perhaps its curdle and telorast who mention "its all draconus' fault" in tBH?

[D'rek]

For any of the above suggestions, it can still be possible that Draconus didn't need the hammer until a late stage in the creation of Dragnipur, ie he hadnt used the hammer yet in the RotCG prologue to make the chains that would later be added to dragnipur.

Sinisdar Toste, on Jul 24 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

i think thats a pretty safe bet there Silencer. dont kalse ampelas and eloth, or perhaps its curdle and telorast who mention "its all draconus' fault" in tBH?

That's different I think, though, merely referencing that Draconus forced the dragons back into Starvald Demelain by hunting many of them down.

[tiam]

well thge timeline doesnt fit rly for Dragnipur being created in the last thousand years as kadaspala was in kharkanas an we know that wasnt a thousand years ago.

Interestingly is anyone wondering how draconus was dragnipurred. I assume hes a better swordsman than dassem (for arguements sake) so how did rake manage to get him with his own sword?

Also well all assuming that only once the sword was formed cud he take souls with it. In the ROTCG prologue he comes after osserc with it while its still in a void like state

This post has been edited by tiam: 25 July 2009 - 03:11 PM