[Cause]

amphibian, on 16 December 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I found the dwarf/dragon chase scene to be quite good - why?

Because it showed us not only the inventiveness of the dwarves, the fate of the prior inhabitants and sone fun stuff, it also showed us why the dwarves went to that much trouble to assemble that much gold and treasure. It was religious. the statue of a dwarf god was but the start of probably a whole hall full of such statues.

The motivation for Thorin isn't just to reclaim his family home, it's to fulfill a dwarf religious need. That makes the fights more meaningful and better tells us why they're willing to fight a dragon over it.

Its not religious its vanity, It was the gallery of kings. I cant see a resemblance but I think its supposed to be Thorins Grandfather. The dwarven god is one of the valar, I forget which one, who i think looks nothing like the dwarves, possibly looks like an elf (I think all valar do).

The desire to reclaim a homeland I think can be very powerful even in the absence of a religious motivation. A place to belong, to be safe from persecution etc etc. I think Tolkien himself once said the dwarves were based on the Jews. http://en.wikipedia....f_(Middle-earth). Nevertheless the coming kingship and riches are definitly supposed to be having a corrupting influence on Thorin much like they had on his grandfather. That's why its so powerful that the dragon threatens to destroy laketown for his hubris, after being warned, and he cant stop it. Whcih makes the fact that he tries and fails in the absolutely the most ridiculous way strike me as silly. Much better if the dragon jsut flew off and Bilbo and the dwarves are just overcome with guilt and shame.

Whcih returns me to my dissapointment with the movie. Everyone so far has a built to a crescendo! The mines of moria, the batle of helms deep, the siege of Minas Tirith and the goblin caves and battle with azog. I feel this movie lacked the same and to end on a cliffhanger is poor form. A tv series that picks up again next week fine. But a movie to cut mid scene when we have to wait a year is a terrible thing in my eyes. This is not a cliffhanger in the sense Oh my God is Gandalf dead or not. This was a cliffhanger smack dab in the middle of a scene that will pick right up in a year.

Also the Dragon is not a dumb beast. He is one of the greatest powers of middle earth and why the tale of the Hobbit is so important. If not for this prequel quest before lotr the world is fucked! Imagine the Siege of Minas Tirith only Sauron brings a dragon! Also establishing the dwarven homeland in erebor again makes it a bulwark against Sauron in the north. To see the dragon be tricked by dwarves calling out its name is painful.

Was it a bad movie, no! Was it the weakest of the series! Yes, to my eyes.

[Silencer]

Cause, on 17 December 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

amphibian, on 16 December 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I found the dwarf/dragon chase scene to be quite good - why?

Because it showed us not only the inventiveness of the dwarves, the fate of the prior inhabitants and sone fun stuff, it also showed us why the dwarves went to that much trouble to assemble that much gold and treasure. It was religious. the statue of a dwarf god was but the start of probably a whole hall full of such statues.

The motivation for Thorin isn't just to reclaim his family home, it's to fulfill a dwarf religious need. That makes the fights more meaningful and better tells us why they're willing to fight a dragon over it.

Its not religious its vanity, It was the gallery of kings. I cant see a resemblance but I think its supposed to be Thorins Grandfather. The dwarven god is one of the valar, I forget which one, who i think looks nothing like the dwarves, possibly looks like an elf (I think all valar do).

The desire to reclaim a homeland I think can be very powerful even in the absence of a religious motivation. A place to belong, to be safe from persecution etc etc. I think Tolkien himself once said the dwarves were based on the Jews. http://en.wikipedia....f_(Middle-earth). Nevertheless the coming kingship and riches are definitly supposed to be having a corrupting influence on Thorin much like they had on his grandfather. That's why its so powerful that the dragon threatens to destroy laketown for his hubris, after being warned, and he cant stop it. Whcih makes the fact that he tries and fails in the absolutely the most ridiculous way strike me as silly. Much better if the dragon jsut flew off and Bilbo and the dwarves are just overcome with guilt and shame.

Whcih returns me to my dissapointment with the movie. Everyone so far has a built to a crescendo! The mines of moria, the batle of helms deep, the siege of Minas Tirith and the goblin caves and battle with azog. I feel this movie lacked the same and to end on a cliffhanger is poor form. A tv series that picks up again next week fine. But a movie to cut mid scene when we have to wait a year is a terrible thing in my eyes. This is not a cliffhanger in the sense Oh my God is Gandalf dead or not. This was a cliffhanger smack dab in the middle of a scene that will pick right up in a year.

Also the Dragon is not a dumb beast. He is one of the greatest powers of middle earth and why the tale of the Hobbit is so important. If not for this prequel quest before lotr the world is fucked! Imagine the Siege of Minas Tirith only Sauron brings a dragon! Also establishing the dwarven homeland in erebor again makes it a bulwark against Sauron in the north. To see the dragon be tricked by dwarves calling out its name is painful.

Was it a bad movie, no! Was it the weakest of the series! Yes, to my eyes.

This.


I enjoyed it, but Smaug is literally the biggest, most powerful bad guy threat left on the face of Middle Earth other than Sauron. And Sauron is a fucking demi-god. Smaug is arrogant, sure, but he's not an idiot. He's not just an animal.

If they'd planned on distracting him with gold - that, I would get. He's a dragon. He fucking loves gold. But to pour molten gold on him is like dropping ice into a sea deity's watery body. It's HOT. As Smaug delightfully monologues not moments later - "I AM FIRE!". If they had THEN applied cold water to make things explode? Fine. If it had been particularly quick-setting gold? Can kind of see it. But as it stood, the entire plan was put together on too short a notice (OK, movie-time, but still) for it to be a convincing "genius last-minute plan", AND it was predicated on the most stupid of assumptions.

Smaug has demonstrably, casually, broken a structural, dwarven stone pillar. An action which rocked the entire mountain. He has broken through a massive dwarven gate with little difficulty (though more difficulty than his previously demonstrated strength would warrant - see previous sentence. Even if the gate was stronger, the wall it was embedded in would not have held). HOW THE FUCKING FUCK WOULD GOLD HAVE THE STRUCTURAL STRENGTH TO WORRY HIM?!?!

And that's assuming that DWARVES, the mastercrafters of the Middle Earth world (Elven smiths notwithstanding), would somehow NOT know that it would take way too long for that gold to harden, even assuming they WAY underestimated (for no reason, given recent demonstrations) it's ability to contain Smaug once hard.



Were the scenes pointless? No. They were fun, movie moments. Were they contrived? Ill-conceived? Illogical? Immersion-breaking? Certainly.

Did they collectively reduce the threat of Smaug? Certainly.

He somehow wiped out the entirety of Erebor, and fucked over Dale, but can't even touch one of the ten or so people running around for thirty minutes? So far I have seen nothing to suggest Smaug is a threat to anything that is mobile. Or able to defend itself.

If Jackson wanted to fuck with canon, why not have someone become dragon chow?

I know the next movie is going to open with Laketown being nuked from orbit. But that's not going to have much punch, I think. Because Smaug is incapable of killing anything now, apparently. He's just a "mindless beast". XD Never mind that he's going to get killed pretty easily anyway.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that his rampage in the books is more like "OH SHIT DRAGON!!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE DOOMED! OH GOD EVERYONE IS DYING EVERYTHING IS BURNING HOLY FUCKING SHI-no, wait, lucky shot on the weak spot, we're saved!".
Whereas in this one, it's going to be "OH GOD DRAGO-no, wait, lucky shot, we're saved! No-one died! Woohoo!" because Smaug is so fucking incompetent at killing things.


>.>

*insert obligatory complaint that he's not really even a dragon now* - oh, wait, is that why he's also useless? >.<


Anyway, that aside, I mostly enjoyed the film. Sauron was fucking awesome. Barrel scene was a bit overdone and 'meh', but still worked. Benedict Cumberbatch is even more ludicrously legendary now.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 17 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I enjoyed it, but Smaug is literally the biggest, most powerful bad guy threat left on the face of Middle Earth other than Sauron. And Sauron is a fucking demi-god. Smaug is arrogant, sure, but he's not an idiot. He's not just an animal.

Whoa, whoa whoa...where do you get THAT? Not even a little bit. He's A threat sure, but second only to Sauron on the continent?...nah. You've got Saruman first off, and then you've got at least one Balrog or two (these were Morgoth's chief go-to minions back during his time)...and they were well above worm (dragon) on that list, you've got Shelob who, being a giant spider is more agile and tricker than a worm could ever be...not to mention the fact that she is spawn of Ungoliant herself who was basically a spider demon from near the beginning of time itself. There are far worse threats in ME than Smaug.

Secondly, the last great worm before this was Glaurung...who inhabited the underground Elven sanctuary of Nargothrond in a similar way to how Smaug inhabits Erebor...and Glaurung was coaxed out of Nargothrond mostly because he was pretty dumb and this allowed Turin to get a bead on him by the river nearby and kill him.

So there is a historical precedent for worms/dragons in ME being too blinded by whatever they desire to be all that smart about anything else.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 17 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Silencer, on 17 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I enjoyed it, but Smaug is literally the biggest, most powerful bad guy threat left on the face of Middle Earth other than Sauron. And Sauron is a fucking demi-god. Smaug is arrogant, sure, but he's not an idiot. He's not just an animal.

Whoa, whoa whoa...where do you get THAT? Not even a little bit. He's A threat sure, but second only to Sauron on the continent?...nah. You've got Saruman first off, and then you've got at least one Balrog or two (these were Morgoth's chief go-to minions back during his time)...and they were well above worm (dragon) on that list, you've got Shelob who, being a giant spider is more agile and tricker than a worm could ever be...not to mention the fact that she is spawn of Ungoliant herself who was basically a spider demon from near the beginning of time itself. There are far worse threats in ME than Smaug.

Secondly, the last great worm before this was Glaurung...who inhabited the underground Elven sanctuary of Nargothrond in a similar way to how Smaug inhabits Erebor...and Glaurung was coaxed out of Nargothrond mostly because he was pretty dumb and this allowed Turin to get a bead on him by the river nearby and kill him.

So there is a historical precedent for worms/dragons in ME being too blinded by whatever they desire to be all that smart about anything else.

Perhaps surprisingly, I mostly agree with you.

To nitpick: Saruman at that time is still seen as one of the good guy wizard Mayar sent out by the Valar, if I am not mistaken.
Shelob was powerful, but also a local issue due to having a haunt somewhere, and like Ungoliant, purely in it for herself instead of a "servant of evil".


For leading armies and forming the core of armies, Melkor had Mayar - like the Balrogs. Dragons were a completely different type of weapon. IIRC, dragons were basically wildcards, produced in the depths of Angband as killing machines. Essentially, they're perfect to reduce an army to cinders, have high survivability through size and scales, but they're hardly the go-to guy to lead an army. Sly, but not smart, and more dedicated to themselves than to a master, they made imperfect minions.

I think when it comes to Middle Earth, the issue for Sauron is that he has a hard time commanding other Mayar. That might be why the Balrog in Moria doesn't obey him, why he relied so much on the Nazgul, why Shelob was allowed to live on the fringe of Mordor without bending the knee(s) and why Saruman later insists on being (the lesser amongst) equals instead of being a servant. Smaug's arrogance might make him put himself on par with Sauron, too, but by simple geneology, he isn't. Creature =/= lesser god.

[Macros]

Shelob, really?
you go to a big spider that Sam fucking gamgee can prick with a glorified dirk over an animal that tore two well armed cities asunder? AN animal that has one documented weak spot? Decendant does not mean equal, not by a long shot.

Balrogs I'll grant you, but at the time of the hobbit their existence/ locations were pure speculation and Sauruman was still considered a good guy. So in the hobbit, yes Smaug was a weapon of devastation on an unprecedented scale, in the known operable world only the necromancer (unconfirmed as Sauron at the time) would have been a bigger badder fucker ti tear shit up in the neighbourhood.


eta, cross post with tapps, haven't read his post yet

This post has been edited by Macros: 17 December 2013 - 01:34 PM

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 17 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Shelob, really?
you go to a big spider that Sam fucking gamgee can prick with a glorified dirk over an animal that tore two well armed cities asunder? AN animal that has one documented weak spot? Decendant does not mean equal, not by a long shot.

Shelob is thousands of years old. And she's not just a descendant...she's the last child on Ungoliant. Ungoliant died in the First Age...thus Shelob was born during that time, and is therefore somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 years old. And Sam did not stab her belly, he got her eye and injured her leg (neither wound mortal) but the piercing of her abdomen was done by her own stinger when she tried to strike at Sam and he dodged her, it is known that none had ever wounded her so badly before...at any rate she still lived and killed for generations before he encounter with Frodo and Sam in LOTR.

She also is not specified to have died from her self-inflicted belly wound. Her fate is unknown to the people of Middle Earth, but much later on when Sam wears the ring he can her her "bubbling" away in pain...so the theory is she even survived that, albeit in a reduced pained state.

Smaug, on the other hand is the last of the great dragons, and is at best a few hundred years old. Though no date of birth is set for him...his first documented appearance to men was in 2770 and that's in the Third Age 171 years prior to the events of THE HOBBIT....during which time he died. So he is at best a few hundred years old.

I think a demon creature that lived for multiple thousands of years, and is possibly still alive...trumps dragon who lived for an indeterminate time (but defo not as long as Shelob) but was taken out upon his second attempt to trash a city in the "danger" category.


Addition: While Dale was a fortified city, Laketown (Esgaroth) the other city that Smaug sacked was not really "well-armed", its primary defense (being made entirely of wooden buildings) was the water in which is was situated. The combination of Smaug's ability to fly over the water and breath fire onto the tinderbox that Laketown is...negated any fortification it thought it had.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

[Aptorian]

I don't really think that the argument holds water QT. She is old yes, but she is not as big as a battleship and armored with scales that can withstand ballistas. A knife nearly did her in or at least wounded her. A squadron of soldiers could potentially kill her if she was cornered. Smaug on the other hand would easily faltten an entire army with little care. The sheer difference in size greatly outclasses Shelob.

This post has been edited by Not Brent Weeks: 17 December 2013 - 02:51 PM

[Illuyankas]

Smaug can fly and breath fire. Shelob is a spider. Smaug actually did stuff. Shelob lives in a hole. A flammable webbing-strewn hole. Smaug can fly and breath fire. Unless Shelob is pulling an AK out from somewhere I think she's at a disadvantage here! (also she's like the size of Smaug's head or so I mean seriously)

[QuickTidal]

Danger does not always equal merely size.

We we discussing most dangerous, and Shelob having lived and killed for thousands of years is the proof in the pudding.

If you guys don't see that aspect of it, so be it. I can't force ya.

But for me, I'm going to fear most the creature who was able to live for generations, and is the daughter of a demon-god who was right hand to a fallen angel who warred with god.

[Aptorian]

Oh sure, if we're talking about scheeming, having to check your closet at night, worrying about a spider army coming out of the forest to eat my village, yeah sure Shelob is intimidating.

But this is like worrying about the growing presence of wolves in the forest, when the fucking mountain behind the forest is turning into a volcano and threatening to destroy you, your town and everything you have ever known.

Giant spiders are scary but they are not a flying natural disaster like Smaug.

This post has been edited by Not Brent Weeks: 17 December 2013 - 03:04 PM

[QuickTidal]

Not Brent Weeks, on 17 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Oh sure, if we're talking about scheeming, having to check your closet at night, worrying about a spider army coming out of the forest to eat my village, yeah sure Shelob is intimidating.

But this is like worrying about the growing presence of wolves in the forest, when the fucking mountain behind the forest is turning into a volcano and threatening to destroy you, your town and everything you have ever known.

Giant spiders are scary but they are not a flying natural disaster like Smaug.

And you can run away from that volcano.

But if the spider ups and bites you in the night, you're done.

[Aptorian]

What if it is a poisonous volcano?

[D'rek]

You can run away from that spider.

But if the volcano ups and erupts on you in the night, you're done.


This is silly. Clearly the real answer of most powerful evil thing is Tom Bombadil.

[QuickTidal]

D, on 17 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

You can run away from that spider.

Not if you are sleeping when it attacks you.

D, on 17 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

But if the volcano ups and erupts on you in the night, you're done.

If this erupts during the night it will be loud as hell, and you can run away from it ...even in your jammies.

D, on 17 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

This is silly. Clearly the real answer of most powerful evil thing is Tom Bombadil.

Agreed.

[Illuyankas]

But what if the volcano is fucking flying eh eh what about that mr 'oooh gollum is more dangerous than aragorn cause he's really old and killed a lot of easily killed things in a cave'

[Macros]

Shelob is old, whoop de fucking do. She's lived in a hole and ambushed passers by.
Smaug upped and smacked the shit out our Erebor and Dale, two well armed cities.
There is no comparison here, she injured herself whilst rolling around fighting a fucking Hobbit, He wiped out cities, he was renowned for his devastation in a few hundred years. Shelob was a whisper, a rumour of a dark hole in the mountains after your 50,000 fucking years. Longevity does not guarantee awesome, it means no one bother to root the bitch out. At least the Balrog was a well established terror.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 17 December 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Shelob is old, whoop de fucking do. She's lived in a hole and ambushed passers by.
Smaug upped and smacked the shit out our Erebor and Dale, two well armed cities.
There is no comparison here, she injured herself whilst rolling around fighting a fucking Hobbit, He wiped out cities, he was renowned for his devastation in a few hundred years. Shelob was a whisper, a rumour of a dark hole in the mountains after your 50,000 fucking years. Longevity does not guarantee awesome, it means no one bother to root the bitch out. At least the Balrog was a well established terror.

Erebor is not a city, it's a mountain. The second city he sacked was Laketown...and as I already said... it was made of wood and was water-locked. A dude with a torch could have taken it out. The Dwarven city located within Erebor was called the Kingdom under the Mountain.

Shelob only hid in her lair in the third age, prior to that she hunted and was the bane of entire areas of countryside in Beleriand and then afterwards along a whole mountain-range by Mordor, just like her mother and the rest of her kin did. She was not a rumour during most of her heyday....just like Ungoliant was feared far and wide...most especially because she served no one but herself, and could be known to feast on her own children. You try to pass the mountains anywhere...you faced her or her spawn....as her network of webbing alerted her to anyone passing anywhere over them.

And Smaug only sacked Dale because he wanted at the treasure horde in the Dwarven halls located in within the mountain of Erebor (and that was not sacked by him....the Dwarves were forced out after battle with orcs...Smaug only took up residence after they'd left)...and he THEN only sacked Laketown because the Dawrves came in and harassed him....otherwise he would have been content to sit on that gold for eternity. He literally NEVER ventured out before that. So if you are looking for an example of a creature that lies in wait and does nothing until somebody happens upon their cave....you really needn't look further than Smaug. He came out once, and died in the attempt.

The point of both The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings is that Hobbits are capable of miraculous achievements that normal people in ME haven't been able to accomplish. So using the fact that Sam and Frodo bested Shelob as the basis for your argument is kind of strange...the point of these stories is the smaller person triumphing over evil. The same actually goes for Smaug, who is smote by a single black arrow that is fired by a human. An army didn't roll over him or anything.

[Macros]

Frodos quest was of personal inner strength and fortitude. Bilbos was about discovering his courage. Neither was about brute power. An army if hobbits would get trashed in a standup fight.
bard only popped the dragon because he was told when and where exactly ti shoot, nothing else had slowed smaug in the slightest.
Sam with a sword nearly crippled the fat spider.

so hairy midget nearly cripples with poorly weilded sword.
hundreds of soldier cant so much as scratch.

your call, I know who I'd want at my back (provided I had no gold on my person)

and shove your semantcs, you know I mean the dwarven kingdom when I say Erebor. Its considerably shorter and easier to type. Correct me if I'm wrong, are dwarves not supposed to be reasonably tough fellows in a scrap? Nothing compared to the legions of the Hobbit empire for sure, but still, respectable enough for a tavern brawl.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 17 December 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

and shove your semantcs, you know I mean the dwarven kingdom when I say Erebor. Its considerably shorter and easier to type. Correct me if I'm wrong, are dwarves not supposed to be reasonably tough fellows in a scrap? Nothing compared to the legions of the Hobbit empire for sure, but still, respectable enough for a tavern brawl.

No one said anything about Hobbit's being tough in a stand up fight. ?? But it does stand to reason that a few Hobbits are responsible for major happenings and results of the Third Age, including the retaking of The Kingdom Under The Mountain, and the destruction of the ring of power. Both done through small, trickey ways.

Sam only defeats her with the help of Elvish Light stored in the talisman Frodo was given (which blinds her), and then she impales her belly on sting accidentally, an elvish blade (being the only reason it pierces her hide). It's not a poorly wielded sword or a dagger...it's a blade crafted in Gondolin two ages past under the care of the finest swordsmith to ever walk Middle Earth (he also made the mithril armor that Frodo eventually wears). So, Magic sword and Magic light have more to do with Shelob's demise than Sam does from a physical standpoint.

Yes, dwarves are quite tough, obviously, but Smaug's taking of their kingdom at Erebor was him attacking the outside the main entrance. They came out and faced him and lost. He drives them out, but it's hardly a sacking. The place is largely intact even 60 years later. Does that make him tough? You betcha. I'm not arguing that at all.

But he literally does nothing for years. If he were left with the gold untouched he wouldn't attack a soul. I'm not even sure he eats....but in the book he has lain on the gold and jewels so long that they have embedded themselves in his breast. That's only a dangerous foe if he's provoked. He's not some sort of monster that rages across the countryside on a monthly basis destroying towns of the North. He's Gollum.....on the large scale...happy with his treasure in his cave....until someone comes and tries to take it from him.

I guess my point is that Shelob and Smaug both hide in their lairs until provoked. And both were smote in the end by trickery. Smaug through a hole in his defense...and Shelob by her momentum.

The initial argument was that Smaug was not the second biggest threat in ME next to Sauron. I maintain that there are others who are worse than Smaug...that's pretty much it.

Apparently I'm alone in that sentiment. This is nothing new.

[Macros]

No the arguement is that they made him look like easy meat after the 30 mins chase around the mountain. Which we said was ridiculous considering when the hobbit was penned smaug was the go to guy for tales of horror.

at the time the only other mentioned horror is the necromancer, which is driven out by the white council.

even at that, lets acknowledge shelob was alive and kicking at the time, she would be by no means as dangerous a bogeyman as old smaug the terrible.

she was ancient yes ,fair play, she was a terror in her day, fine. She wasn't going to pop out of her cave and scuttle down to destroy a city now was she?
laketown is kindling, fair well and good. Dale was a city of stone, well equipped and trooped, caught by surprise fine.
you mention that smaugs armour is riddled with gold and gems that have stuck to him after his years of contented slumber on the gold.
so when he wiped out the masses in dale and under the mountain he was LESS protected? He's now MORE badass than when he casually obliterated the fine folk of dale and their soldiers?
shit man, shelob has to eat random golbins to stay alive, smaug just is.