[Tyrant]

I AM HERE. FEAR ME.

[Crix]

I think long winded explanations are always too far off the track. No I do not think this Tyrant is an ascendant like Draconus or maybe even Kruppe but I think the Tyrant was a human tyrant, quite powerful, not necessarily an ascendent.

You see, from my POI, I don't see the fact that power necessarily equates to ascendant status ... i.e. Laseen is pretty mortal and I would say she is quite possibly a 'Tyrant' and 1 of the most powerful characters in the books. Sure, someone like Tayschrenn could take her out but Tays would never do that!

Anyways, back on point, I don't think the Tyrant of Darujistan is a Jaghut Tyrant, powerful Ascendant, or elder god. I think as a poster mentioned before, SE does like to phrase the word 'Tyrant' in his writing so its easy to surmise that this could mean that this Tyrant is such and such.

Also, from the writing, I only got the impression the Tyrant was feared from Baruk and co. and no one else. Crokus in GoTM does not know krap, and I don't get the impression of this Tyrant in the later books being so powerful...

Thoughts?

[geNESis]

I'm going with the theory we haven't been introduced to the tyrant yet. gotta leave soome new characters for latter books.

Though in MoI doesn't Kruppe give the Mhybe some copper jewelry that was found beneath Darujhistan, and they supposedly belonged to the Rhivi spirits. Those same pieces of jewelry were made to look like flint, to "mirror a heritage", and the caverns they were found in were carved with antler picks and some contained paintings that resembled those done by Imass. Darujhistan seems to have a long history with the Imass so maybe the tyrant is related to the Imass some how. Has it ever been stated where the First Throne is?

If not, the contents of the caves at least it gives us an insight as to what Humble Measure might have found.

[Aptorian]

The First throne is not hidden beneath Darujistan.

The First Throne isn't stationary, it has been moved several times, last time we saw it was in Bonehunters where Monoch Ochem melts and fuses to it.

[geNESis]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, this series is a lot to keep straight sometimes.

[Inkiper]

In GoTM there are 4 named tyrants. One is offcourse Reast and next one is Ektalm, before him was LAtestte and than Sandenay which was Latestte's daughter...

Reast was i think most powerful jaghut of all (ex. Gathos)

but there is something missing, darujistan wasn't that old city As i Thought, and Reast was the last tyrant of Darujistan, he was the last Jaghut tyrant. And he remembered whan there wasn't any Darujistan between Gadrobi Hills.So few thousand years missing...

This post has been edited by Inkiper: 01 March 2010 - 03:55 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Raest was NOT the tyrant of Darujhistan. Its not explicitly stated anywhere that he wasn't, but it would make no sense. For starters, Darujhistan is the city 'founded on a rumor' the rumor was the burial place of Raest. So many people moved to the area trying to find where he was imprisoned so they could leech his power that they had to start a city. We really have no idea about who the Tyrant was, I tend to believe its someone we havent met yet.

[D'rek]

Inkiper, on 01 March 2010 - 03:51 PM, said:

In GoTM there are 4 named tyrants. One is offcourse Reast and next one is Ektalm, before him was LAtestte and than Sandenay which was Latestte's daughter...

Reast was i think most powerful jaghut of all (ex. Gathos)

but there is something missing, darujistan wasn't that old city As i Thought, and Reast was the last tyrant of Darujistan, he was the last Jaghut tyrant. And he remembered whan there wasn't any Darujistan between Gadrobi Hills.So few thousand years missing...

As WJD says, Raest was not the same as the other Tyrant. Raest was *A* Tyrant, and the one who's grave people started looking for to eventually create Darujhistan. But then once Darujhsitan truly existed there was another person called the Tyrant who controlled the city and the mages and the Seguleh and who knows what else.

Ektalm and Latestte are part of a long line of rulers called the Tyrant Kings, mortal rulers of Darujhistan, the first of which we presume took over after the Tyrant was shoo'ed away.



^^^Maybe. Who knows, could be that Raest really is the Tyrant and was posessing people from within his tomb, but there's evidence to suspect that that is so.

[Wampyry]

Someone had mentioned Kallor as the possible Tyrant. Seems like a reasonable possibility. All that Kallor achieves is taken away from him as
per Sister of Cold Nights curse,

Quote

Kellor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each
time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands, etc.

. Kallor is on his way back to Darujhistan to claim a throne. ALthough I don't remember if it was to re-claim a throne. He sure as hell has been around a long time

[Baudinsballs]

What about the T'Lan Imass that Harlo freed? It seemed to want a throne.

[HoosierDaddy]

It wanted to kill Raest, who was a Tyrant when he was alive. It also gets Azathed as Raest notes at the end of Toll the Hounds.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but i think he did indeed want a throne. the same one kallor was after i think. the one nobody ended up getting. he took a detour to settle an old score, and, well... you know the rest.

[MTS]

Kallor is not the tyrant.

Quote

Ahead awaited a throne, a new throne, one that he deserved. He believed it was taking shape,
becoming something truly corporeal. Raw power, brimming with unfulfilled promise.

As for the T'lan Imass, he does indeed want a throne.

Quote

The Tyrant of old was gone. Somewhere close, then, waited an empty throne.
Waiting for Dev’ad Anan Tol. Who had once been crippled but was crippled no longer.

I can see where the confusion comes from, but he was under the ground when Darujhistan arose, since Raest imprisoned him.

Quote

The far side of the valley was a low ridge, and beyond, glowing in the darkness, was the city that held his Finnest. Raest paused at seeing it. Even the great Jaghut cities of the early times were dwarfed by comparison. And what of its strange blue and green light, fighting the darkness with such steady, unfaltering determination?
There were mysteries here. He was eager to discover them.

He wants to take the same throne Kallor does, but alas:

Quote

‘Although, come to think of it, I did have a visitor earlier this evening.’
‘What? Oh, well, I’m happy for you, but—’
Raest lifted one desiccated hand and pointed.
Antsy and Barathol turned. And there, in the yard, there was a fresh mound of raw earth, steaming.
Vines were visibly snaking over it. ‘Gods below,’ the Falari whispered, making a warding gesture with
one hand.
‘A T’lan Imass with odd legs,’ said Raest. ‘It seemed to harbour some dislike towards me.’ The
Jaghut paused. ‘I can’t imagine why.’
Antsy grunted. ‘It should’ve stayed on the path.’

On a par with 'better nate than lever' for most elaborate joke ever, by the way.

[Harvester]

Isn't it stated somewhere near the end of TTH that some forces in the city (HM and pals) are trying to resurrect a tyrant of old?

//edit:

It's in the epilogue I think.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 05 April 2010 - 11:49 AM

[Garak]

Quote

Isn't it stated somewhere near the end of TTH that some forces in the city (HM and pals) are trying to resurrect a tyrant of old?

Yeah but no idea who they might be talking about. But with Karsa in the city any Tyrant is probably get his ass handed to him by Karsa (much as Karsa gets on my nerves every time he goes "Witness! I shall annihilate you all!" I have to give him points for being a tough bastard).

Also, did anyone else find it funny when in TTH (I think) Kallor decides that his next kingdom will be one of ashes (he wants to annihilate civilization) and oh how unique he'll be because of it? I got this image of Kallor and Karsa fighting for the privilege of making armageddon come true while the world watches on and preys neither wins.

[MTS]

Harvester, on 05 April 2010 - 11:46 AM, said:

Isn't it stated somewhere near the end of TTH that some forces in the city (HM and pals) are trying to resurrect a tyrant of old?

//edit:

It's in the epilogue I think.

Indeed it is.

Quote

There were servants hidden in the city, and they were even now at work. To bring about a fell return,
to awaken one of the Tyrants of old. Neither woman in this room was unaware of this, and the fear was
palpable in its persistent distraction.

I just think it's Erikson's penchant for repeating phrases he likes than anything noteworthy.

[Iskaral Pust]

OK

I have been trying to puzzle this one out for a long while and although I know we don't have anywhere near enough detail to make a confidant identification I would like to throw in a name that has not been mentioned yet and is definitely badass enough to have the T'orrud Cabal sh!tt!ng bricks.

Let me lay out my rambling thoughts on this ... oh and all timeline issues are ignored ... for me there is no timeline in the MBotF. When SE gives a date over say 1000 years previous to current events - what he means is A LONG TIME AGO. I look on his timelines like I look on the early parts of the Sumerian King Lists or the lifespans of pre-Flood humanity in the Bible - they are nonsense and are meant to just indicate antiquity not be used for absolute dating. So with that caveat ...

1) The remnants of the Tyrant's rule (the T'orrud Cabal, the Seguleh) all have First Empire names (we even get translations of them - I think in RG. But I can't remember what they mean now). There is even speculation (I can't remember in which book or even which character speculates) that the Seguleh were First Empire settlers on Genabackis.

2) The Tyrant has been awakened, or is stirring, NOW. Not 100 years ago, not during GoTM or MoI but from TtH onwards it is mentioned. That means that some event has happened in the world between MoI and TtH that has started this.

3) In GoTM, K'rul states that he has a task to do. In his first conversation with Kruppe he says "I believe I am here to await one who will be awakened. One I have known before, long ago" (GoTM p 167 - from google books). Now when first reading GoTM I thought he was refering to Raest, but now I am not so sure. We know that he had dealings with Kallor during his reign as High King. But there was another Empire at roughly the same time, one that would have been around before the decline of K'ruls worship. I am, of course, refering to the First Empire (Human).

There have been lots of old powers awakened over the course of the series but only one fits the bill in my opinion - the awakening of the Deragoth. And we all know who is buried within the minds of the Deragoth don't we? All together now - Dessimblackis!

This is who I believe will be revealed as The Tyrant. Basically as badass a human as can be!

Now I know there are holes in this big enough to ride a Deragoth through but as it can only be flimsy speculation anyway - what do you think?

oh last thought - Toll the Hounds - could mean summon the Hounds. The Hounds of Darkness? (yes I know that shadow and light appeared in the book but ...)

This post has been edited by Iskaral Pust: 13 May 2010 - 10:08 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The problem is that Dessimbelackis split his soul in the Deragoth before the fall of the First Empire which is pressumably before the foundation of Daruhjistan and they don't seem to have much of a human mind. Also , the First Empire was in Seven Cities, why the hell would he have gone and founded a city in Genabackis.

Besides, I really believe that in GotM K'rul was definetly referring to Raest's awakening.

[Iskaral Pust]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 13 May 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

The problem is that Dessimbelackis split his soul in the Deragoth before the fall of the First Empire which is pressumably before the foundation of Daruhjistan and they don't seem to have much of a human mind. Also , the First Empire was in Seven Cities, why the hell would he have gone and founded a city in Genabackis.

Besides, I really believe that in GotM K'rul was definetly referring to Raest's awakening.

They had colonies on Lether - why not on Genabackis? I am sure that there is a quote somewhere that speculates (incorrectly maybe ...) that the Seguleh may have been settlers from the First Empire, at least indicating that it was not thought of as an impossibility within the books - found the quote! It was Samar Dev in RG speculating on the Seguleh whilst Karsa mops the floor with the other contenders
"Seguleh. First Empire word, that. The Anvil. Stange name for a people - probably some remnent clan from the colonial period of Dessimbelackis's Empire." I won't type out the entire quote but she does say that it was common for armies to be called a variation on that theme at the time and that the markings and glyphs on the mask WERE NOT First Empire.
So Samar Dev does not make a link with Genabackis but does indicate that the First Empire had far-flung colonies (as we already knew from Lether).

So let me refine my argument

1) Timeline - as Daruhjistan is only 3000 years old and the First Empire ended 100,000 years before that (maybe). How do I reconcile the differences? I could ignore it, say the timeline is not important (which I don't think it is as I have stated already). But I have had another thought - the pickled Segulah are casked are they not? As though they have been transported ... who is to say that the T'orrud Cabal ORIGINATED in Daruhjistan. Maybe they brought the pickled Seguleh and whatever Humble Measure is looking for with them?
If I HAD to construct a progression for this sort of thing it would be:
1) Dessimlackis sets up T'orrud Cabal and Seguleh on Seguleh Island
2) Seguleh Island society becomes more caste-bound and warrior focused
3) This encourages the re-location of the T'orrud Cabal (with some relics and pickled guards) to the newly founded city of Daruhjistan.

I acknowledge its baseless speculation but so are all guesses on this subject.

2) Deragoth - from my understanding of the it the Deragoth and Dessimblackis came to some kind of arrangement where he split his soul amongst the 7 (now 5) Deragoth. However, all we have seen of them indicate lots of Deragoth personality and little of Dessimblackis. It is my contention that the item that Humble Measure seeks will awaken the "seeds" of Dessimblackis that have been planted within the Deragoth (sort of like Leto in sandworms).

3) K'rul - I think K'rul originally believed that he was referring to Raest's awakening. There is a quote further on in GotM (which I have not got on me at the moment and google books hasn't reproduced it) where K'rul says something along the lines of "I expected to be walking into the Gates of Chaos with Raest but still find myself waiting here". I will try and find the exact quote when I am home tonight. I think SE was forshadowing (even in GotM!) the coming of the Tyrant. As far as I can tell GotM'isms are fairly cosmetic - I believe that SE himself has said that nothing important would be changed if he re-wrote GotM just cosmetic stuff (sexes of characters, styles of magic etc).

All in all its still a good mystery and I can't wait to see what ICE does with it.

This post has been edited by Iskaral Pust: 13 May 2010 - 02:25 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I think the quote you're looking for is when K'rul is talking to Rake on top of the Belfry before the big fight. It's something like "I expected to return to the warrens of chaos with a Jaghut Tyrant for company..." and then he goes on to ask Rake if what he does to keep himself busy and interested in the world works for him. So I'm not sure how that fits with your theory. I'm in the camp that believes the Tyrant is someone we haven't met yet.