[Siergiej]

The tactics behind splitting the armies were pretty clear, however even WhiskeyJack and Dujek thmeselves considered it pretty risky. The reason for not telling anything to Brood was less clear, but certainly understandable and plausible.

1. WhiskeyJack and Dujek were expecting Seer to prepare some kind of trap - that's why Birdge Burners and 6 000 other soldiers were sent ahead alongside their single-armed leader. Finding the trap and disabling it was their mission. Then the rest of the herd would join the battle and own Pannion army. They did their job almost perfectly. The ambush in the forest? Prevented. Pannion Mage Team? Partially destroyed. Seer's demonic birds? Dealt some heavy losses. Only thing they couldn't prevent at all were those K'Chain Che'Malle (BB killed liked... 3 out of 800?), who eventually almost owned the joint forces. But still, Bridge Burners and Dujek's army also managed to crush through Coral's walls and put a lot of chaos in Seer's army.

2. Evetually they won, but it may have worked out better, if Brood had listened to WJ and sped up to give Dujek helping hand (still, how would he grab it, if was holding a sword in his only hand?). Of course, Caladan's decision is absolutley understandable, and at the moment seemed right. However, later events proved, that Brood should have marched with WJ. Still, he had all the rights to feel like someone was making fool of him. Still, WJ and Dujek had a good reason for that. Bridge Burners's plan to capture the Seer. And they wanted to capture Coral - the less help, the more rights to claim the city.

[Braden]

I’m replaying this in my mind and starting to believe that even IF Bood had marched with Dujeks main forces I don’t believe there would have been much of a change in the end results.



The main factor of course in this was the K’Chain Che’Malle.



The “allied” forces had the Imass to deal with them (and the Ay) BUT once they effectively laid down their arms, Silverfox’s fault let it be said…if she hadn’t turned away from her intended path…well, ok…it was her biological mothers fault in actual fact, without her guidance and without her malice…anyway I digress and dive into a thesis on parental control and unconditional love verse trust!



Fact is, that even the full, combined armies struggled against the KCCM. If memory serves, the full armies WE’RE present when the full force (the 800) of KCCM took the field. What the Bridgeburners and the advance (commando) forces of Dujek took on were just the internal city patrols!



To point 1 though I agree. It was a simple but necessary plan. The word “trap” is a misnomer perhaps though as it wasn’t so much to prevent a trap of the Seers creation but to infiltrate and destroy the Seers main defences, sow discord and misdirection (classic commando raid). It worked and was effective. A siege would not have worked for two main reasons….firstly, the tear had to be repaired as fast as possible and secondly, the KCCM would have sallied anyway (they’re not a defensive “creation”, I can’t see them waiting in trenches can you?).



The real boon for the attackers was completely unforeseen…the Mott Irregulars, I’ll not say any more on that.



“Capturing” Coral was secondary to all other concerns. Look what the Malazans have done to previous cities they have assailed…in GotM, do we really see any concern for keeping a city “in one piece”? No, not really. What we do see is a single minded drive to achieve what is needed at the time and a knowledge that the administration of the Empire will pick up whatever is left and process it as it has done countless times before.



For me its clear that the Malazan Empire is the Roman Empire in these facts (not only when you consider how their armies fight, in particular the heavy infantry….short swords…javelins…tall shields…ring any bells? Add to this a reliance on engineers – sappers – to overcome obstacles but also a reliance on the Empires administration to overcome local resistance and rebuild conquests in the image of the Empire whilst impressing upon the local populace the benefits of Imperial rule over the previous lordship).



There are other similarities but I’m pretty sure everyone who’s read the books has made the connection anyway.

[Siergiej]

Quote

I’m replaying this in my mind and starting to believe that even IF Bood had marched with Dujeks main forces I don’t believe there would have been much of a change in the end results.



The main factor of course in this was the K’Chain Che’Malle.

Yup, K'Chain Che'Malle would still have been in advantaged position, as they were... well, insanely strong, and there were 800 of them. But if Brood marched with Malazans, WhiskeyJack wouldn't have died, Korlat wouldn't have been wounded, and Tayschrenn wouldn't have been slapped with some spooky Chaos magic. It's because I can't really imagine Kallor trying to kill SilverFox before the eyes of Caladan. Before he even tried, Burn's Hammer would smack him hard enough to make him fly to damn Letheri And with WhiskeyJack in one piece, Malazans probably wouldn't have their morale crushed so hard.

Quote

The “allied” forces had the Imass to deal with them (and the Ay) BUT once they effectively laid down their arms

Doubt that. They all knew about K'Chain Che'Malle since Capustan. But the only one, who knew for sure, that T'lan Imass are coming along was Kallor, who noticed strange flow of mud behind the army (now, this guy is just creepy). Silverfox vanished few days before army's arrival in Coral, and appeared again, with her undead fellas, when the battle was about to begin. So, the joint forces had to be prepared for confronting K'Chain Che'Malle without the aid of 300 000 years old warriors. I just don't think they expected Pannion to have almost 1 000 of K'ell Hunters.

[Braden]

I’ll have to re-read I think. I was under the impression that the control Silverfox had over the Imass was clear to the Malazans, and that the Empress would be aware of the movements of the greater mass of Imass due to her status…purely conjecture on my part that last one though.

Spoiler

Think I’m just assuming that the head of the Empire still had control or at least links to the power of the first throne? Potentially as reference to Imass fighting alongside Malazan forces seems to reach beyond Laseens usurping the Emerperor.

Point taken about the KCCM not, perhaps, being expected at all. Even in limited numbers…its possible that this is a surprise for all involved…



Hold on, memory reboot…



…it is. It’s a shock to all concerned BUT I’m pretty sure that once the Imass know of this THEY make it clear they will be there to fight them, something about being an ancient enemy or a force that shouldn’t be there now and they feel honour bound to destroy??

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think the ancient enemy the T'lann Imass refer to is Pannion, who's actually a Jaghut Tyrant.

Also,

Spoiler

it is made quite clear in the books that it was Kellanved alone that controlled the T'lann Imass and that Laseen has no power over them

[Siergiej]

If I remember well, T'lan Imass actually did assure they will confront K'Chain Che'Malle. But it was before the Capustan siege, talking with one of the Grey Swords leaders: Brukhalian, Karnadas or Itkovian, when he asked if they were going to defend the city. I am not 100% about that, but I think only Kallor was absolutely sure that T'lans are coming with their puppies, to help KCCM rest in peace during the final fight.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 19 July 2010 - 01:13 PM

[Braden]

lol...puppies.

Yup, re-read on the cards then.

[D'rek]

Pretty good stuff, except for this:

Braden, on 19 July 2010 - 08:40 AM, said:

A siege would not have worked for two main reasons….firstly, the tear had to be repaired as fast as possible

The tear at Morn was fine, Pannion's sister was still in it sealing it. If you're referring to the CG's poisoning, then Burn's minions told QB they had years left before the poison became absolute.

Granted, if the thousandish K'ell hunters were unforeseen the commanders could have figured that they were capable of a pretty solid victory, and moving quickly so that they would foil the Pannion forest trap and then be able to use that force in a commando strike while the main force showed up and began a frontal assault makes sense. But, a good general shouldn't assume too much, and they assumed that they didn't need the tens of thousands of barghast that they left behind in their haste. Those tens of thousands of barghast would've been damn handy against the K'ell hunters.

That's the argument for patience being a virtue and how they might've done better if they approached more slowly and actually brought their full force.

The argument the other way is a bit crazier because of the commanders all bluffing to each other about the Pannion Domin being just a nation that needed crushing so it wouldn't spread. In reality they all knew that Pannion was a tool of the CG and was being used as the conduit for poisoning the warrens. They knew that destroying the armies, killing the mages and condors and K'ell Hunters and capturing the city was nothing, Pannion was the main objective and the Matron probably a decent secondary objective. They already had news from the fall of Outlook telling them what Pannion does when he's about to lose: he flees by warren to somewhere else.

So they all knew that a standard siege or frontal assault, even were they to win, would result in Pannion just fleeing again. The Domin would be crushed, but the conduit for the CG's poison would get away and start up somewhere else. But since they were all deceiving each other, they were each pretending like that was okay, like crushing the nation was the important thing. So the Malazans took it upon themselves to do their commando strike which ensured they got to Pannion before he could teleport away. And he *was* trying to do just that, with the Matron in/and the Finnest. The Malazans had no idea what Rake was up to, but that bit with Moon Spawn coming down on the palace was probably the Brood/Rake equivalent of the Malazan's commando-strike, designed to unexpectedly crush Pannion in his castle before he had time to react and flee. Either Moon's Spawn or the commando-strike, either of these two "ploys" would have been necessary to complete the commanders' true objective of eliminating/capturing Pannion, and it makes sense that each side would have one since they obviously weren't telling each other about said ploys.

[Braden]

QB didn't act much like he believed what Burns minions said though did he really.

Ok, take it this way with regards the rent at morn. Sure the Seers sister held it together....but, for a defeat of the Seer she had to be removed and the rest of it had to occur so I'd say more urgency was behind the actions of Paran, QB, WJ and Dujek than credit is given. The fact this isn't made clear is part of the bluffing going on between the sides as you so rightly mention.

Lets face it the Domin was a doomed movement/cult/whatever anyway...an army that can only sustain itself by eating itself is a bit like a perpetual motion machine, not actually going to keep going for long. Eventually a distances to cover would be too long and they'd all starve when combined with disease and attrition from battles.

So, yes, another highlight to support the need to force the Seer out so he just didn't leave and restart elsewhere perhaps?

[Siergiej]

I don't think they cared that much about the tear in Morn. In Deadhouse Gates, when Gesler & co. reach Silanda in Nascent, few T'lan Imass appear. One of them sacrifices himself to seal the tear in this part of Kurald Emurlahn forever. I think it works the same with Morn, Pannion's sister would just stay there and suffer for all eternity. QB and Paran replaced her, because the safest way to get rid of K'Chain Che'Malle was to seal the tear with their mom. At least, that's how I see it

I agree, however, with the statement that QB and Paran's mission was overally the most important part of war with Pannion Domin. The reason was capturing the Seer and putting him inside Burn, so that he would heal her using Omtose Phellack. Saves the world pretty much.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Siergiej, on 19 July 2010 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't think they cared that much about the tear in Morn. In Deadhouse Gates, when Gesler & co. reach Silanda in Nascent, few T'lan Imass appear. One of them sacrifices himself to seal the tear in this part of Kurald Emurlahn forever.

does one?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 20 July 2010 - 04:38 AM