[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

The Good Kruppe Has Something to Bray!

1. Tayschrenn was in disguise. Was it ever made clear that Whiskeyjack and/or Dujek knew it was him? It was not. It is Kruppe's theory that they thought the standard bearer was a Claw, there to ensure their adherence to the Empress's plans, whatever they were. If Kruppe is wrong in this, he takes comfort in the fact that someone will take unseemly delight in pointing it out.

2. Kruppe is of the opinion that the demon possessed condors did more damage to Dujek's forces than the K'chain Cha'Malle. Itkovian's intervention among the T'lan Imass did little to affect what transpired as far as The Mazalan forces outside the walls were concerned.

3. The Bridgeburners were sent ahead to reconnoiter the scene, and the Army split up in order to deal with the anticipated threat of the situation outside the walls of Coral, which they did. The entire force could not get there in a timely fashion in order to do that.

4. There is no #4. Kruppe is dumbfounded and rendered speechless, or nearly so, as absurd a notion as that may seem to one and all.

The Good Kruppe Has Spewed!

[HoosierDaddy]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on Jul 5 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

blah
blah
blah

The Good Kruppe Has Spewed!

Considering your avatar it is quite unsurprising.

Kruppe's a fun character. Not my favorite, but still fun, especially in MoI.

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

The Good Kruppe Has Something to Bray!

HoosierDaddy, on Jul 5 2009, 01:51 PM, said:

Considering your avatar it is quite unsurprising.

Kruppe spews only inventive streams of colorful and outlandish verbiage. Never would he allow a morsel of tasty viands to be wasted through barbaric regurgitation.

Now You Know.

-----

Perhaps Whiskeyjack's and Dujek's generalships do not measure up to the unrealistic standards imposed by "Monday Morning Pattons" of questionable, nay, dubious pedigree. Nevertheless, Kruppe is satisfied with their otherwise sterling contribution to one ripping yarn.

Good Kruppe Has Spewed!

This post has been edited by Kruppe of Darujhistan: 06 July 2009 - 01:28 AM

[amphibian]

Zanth13, on Jun 19 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

The only thing I wasnt sure about was Rakes plan really necessary...

Crash Moonspawn... Really? did it even help that much

I viewed it as a last use of a dwindling resource. It was time for the Andii to step back into the world (for the convergence ahead [those who've read the later books will understand]) and Moon's Spawn was damaged at Pale (tilting, chunks missing etc.).

Sinisdar Toste, on Jun 19 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

when it comes to rake, i believe his and broods plans were also twofold, secret and public. one, to surprise pannion and ensure success in conquering coral (what they told dujek and WJ) and two, (the secret part) to keep coral and the liberated cities from malazan hands, brood and rake, despite fighting with and treating with the malazans quite cordially, are ancient ascendants, they know how the game is played and had this as a contingency.

I like your thinking. Add in the convergence thing and Rake's actions start to make sense.

Kryphon, on Jun 19 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

And had Rake known the Malazan's were there early he may have unvieled Moon's Spawn. Since Dujek got there ahead of schedule he was still hiding, waiting. And didn't he send all the Tiste with Brood? I can't remember exactly, but I think he was alone with MS. I'd have still taken him alone to crush a few thousand of the Pannions, and Dragnipur would have thanked him. So again, lack of communication screws the BBs and the other Malazan troops. Secrecy causes more deaths and ultimately accomplishes nothing.

We find out in a later book that Rake was not solely responsible for the incredible demands of moving Moon's Spawn under water, with the chaos-ridding magic and crushing pressure, and completely undetected for so long.

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on Jul 5 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

[/b]1. Tayschrenn was in disguise. Was it ever made clear that Whiskeyjack and/or Dujek knew it was him? It was not. It is Kruppe's theory that they thought the standard bearer was a Claw, there to ensure their adherence to the Empress's plans, whatever they were. If Kruppe is wrong in this, he takes comfort in the fact that someone will take unseemly delight in pointing it out.

Only three people were aware of that particular deceit: 1) Tayschrenn 2) Dujek 3) Silverfox, who knew the name Artanthos from before and recognized immediately who he was, but remained silent (probably Nightchill's knowledge, although it's possible Tattersail knew it).

I think this deceit was their hope and a prayer to a possible move by either Rake or Brood against Dujek's leadership, or if the endgame of the Pannion Domin turned out nasty (as it did).

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

The Good Kruppe Has Something to Bray!

Having just finished the book for the first time, Kruppe made all haste to begin a re-read, as is his wont. Silverfox did recognize that Artanthos was not what he seemed upon first sighting him, and later speculates on him further, but to the point in the story where Kruppe now wallows delightedly (page 130), she exhibits no sure knowledge.

Kruppe still recollects nothing pertaining to, nor has he stumbled across any evidence to support, Dujek's knowing that Artanthos is Tayschrenn. Would you be so good as to reveal to Kruppe approximately where this elusive fact can be gleaned from the body of the story?

The Good Kruppe Has Spewed!

[amphibian]

It's not in MoI. I just checked pretty thoroughly the end of the book.

There's a couple tidbits in The Bonehunters about it, I believe, but am loath to crack the book open and go quote-hunting at the moment.

[D'rek]

If they had thought Artanthos was just a Claw, they'd have gotten rid of him. Dujek and WJ were more than capable of handling a single claw hanging around their backsides. And while they probably never say it outright, you can glimpse that they know who he is from muttered comments about his timing being impeccable during their discussions about not being renegades and more. Besides, Dujek and WJ should know the name Artanthos from before as well...

[Traveller]

sharper, on Jun 18 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Spoilers.

Imagine what might have happened had they advanced on the enemy in a cautious and professional manner, conserving their strength, making sure the soldiers were properly fed and rested. Figuring out a joint approach, tactical dispositions and the like after proper recce work.
Please tell me I'm just not getting Dujek's brilliant operational masterstroke...

Military plans involving big armies rarely work out well. The bigger the army, the slower it travels, and the more supplies it needs. The land between Capustan and Coral was decimated and razed by the Tenescowri - there were no resources, so the Malazans had to speed up.

There were still issues of trust regarding the alliance - Broods army was suspicious of the malazan motives; they had already all but figured out that they weren't as 'outlawed' as they had made out. So they kept their distance. The Barghast were slowed as they were continually delayed by internal fights and duels.

Yes, Coral was a giant cock-up - if they had all arrived, well rested and fed, lined up tactically, and fought a planned standing siege, they might not have been mauled so badly. But it was never going to happen like that. The BB's set up traps and took the highest ground, but when QB saw the condors, he knew he had to try something before the main army arrived. If they had waited, and done nothing, the condors could have attacked the massed ground troops simultaneously, and maybe more would have died. QB only managed to take the others out as he surprised them - if they'd all been alert and airborn it would have been different.

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

The Humble Kruppe Has Something to Bray!

D'rek, on Jul 6 2009, 07:45 AM, said:

If they had thought Artanthos was just a Claw, they'd have gotten rid of him.

To Kruppe's ever attentive ear, this statement exudes gross understatement; as would the phrase, "Quick Ben is just a Squad Mage."

D'rek, on Jul 6 2009, 07:45 AM, said:

Dujek and WJ were more than capable of handling a single claw hanging around their backsides. And while they probably never say it outright, you can glimpse that they know who he is from muttered comments about his timing being impeccable during their discussions about not being renegades and more. Besides, Dujek and WJ should know the name Artanthos from before as well...

Being aware that Artanthos is not what he seems isn't justification for doing anything about him beyond that awareness. Dujek and Whiskeyjack would no doubt expect the Empress to have eyes and ears in place and have no reason to begrudge it.

Your opinion is to Kruppe like unto a precious jewel, and Kruppe treasures it like he would any another rare and exotic morsel oozing with delicate cream and jelly.

amphibian, on Jul 5 2009, 11:18 PM, said:

It's not in MoI. I just checked pretty thoroughly the end of the book.

There's a couple tidbits in The Bonehunters about it, I believe, but am loath to crack the book open and go quote-hunting at the moment.

Kruppe thanks you for (wittingly or unwittingly) supporting his assertion that nowhere in the body of work under discussion (MoI) does any explicit knowledge of Artanthos true identity exist before it is exposed at the end. :bows:

-----

Kruppe's mind is made up that the recorded strategy and tactics employed by Dujek and Whiskeyjack were what was necessary to fulfill the outcome that in fact occurred. Indeed, any and all shortcomings in the arcane realm of "military savvy" supposedly exhibited by Dujek and Whiskeyjack can with confidence be laid at the feet of those inaccurate, ever-embellishing and naughty historians.

The Humble Kruppe Has Spewed!

[amphibian]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on Jul 6 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Kruppe thanks you for (wittingly or unwittingly) supporting his assertion that nowhere in the body of work under discussion (MoI) does any explicit knowledge of Artanthos true identity exist before it is exposed at the end. :bows:

Should we be considering MoI alone or what happened during MoI that was revealed in other books?

I view the latter as a far more valid approach, and only when taking the series as a whole can we see how the people and places in one area affect others (e.g. In MoI, Dujek commissions the Trygalle to deliver supplies to Coltaine, who received them in DG).

In this case, I remember the existence of some small tidbits in later books that confirm that Dujek at least was aware of Artanthos's true identity. Plus it stands to reason that a standard-bearer of a High Fist's standard would be known to the High Fist.

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

ATTENTION: Kruppe of Darujhistan Has Something to Bray!

amphibian, on Jul 6 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

Should we be considering MoI alone or what happened during MoI that was revealed in other books?

As Kruppe has not yet read the latter, what choice has he but to base his brilliant (but for their inaccuracy) opinions and speculations on the content of the former?

amphibian, on Jul 6 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

I view the latter as a far more valid approach, and only when taking the series as a whole can we see how the people and places in one area affect others (e.g. In MoI, Dujek commissions the Trygalle to deliver supplies to Coltaine, who received them in DG).

True enough, yet Kruppe does not deliberately eschew for no reason participation in forums devoted to books he has not yet read. If Kruppe is wrong, he would prefer information pertaining to the refutation of his error gleaned from later volumes be transmitted to him properly cloaked in fell theurgy or at least spoiler tags, else not at all.

amphibian, on Jul 6 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

In this case, I remember the existence of some small tidbits in later books that confirm that Dujek at least was aware of Artanthos's true identity. Plus it stands to reason that a standard-bearer of a High Fist's standard would be known to the High Fist.

Kruppe cedes the point, if for no other reason than that he thinks you have an honest face... er, for an amphibian. Also: Please accept Kruppe's humble apology for his gustatory consumption of the legs of countless of your brethren.

Kruppe of Darujhistan Has Spewed!

This post has been edited by Kruppe of Darujhistan: 07 July 2009 - 06:49 PM

[amphibian]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on Jul 5 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

Kruppe still recollects nothing pertaining to, nor has he stumbled across any evidence to support, Dujek's knowing that Artanthos is Tayschrenn. Would you be so good as to reveal to Kruppe approximately where this elusive fact can be gleaned from the body of the story?

I apologize, during my own re-read of MoI, I found some interesting tidbits during a conversation between Dujek and Whiskeyjack on the march post-Capustan.

My copy of MoI is an ARG and the pagination may be slightly different.

pg. 599

Quote

Whiskeyjack grunted, then swung towards the tent's exit: 'Good night, Dujek.'
'And to you Whiskeyjack. Oh, one last thing.'
'Yes?'
'Tayschrenn. He's been wanting to apologize to you. For what happened to the Bridgeburners.'
'He knows where to find me, Dujek.'
'He wants a proper moment.'
'What's proper?'
'I'm not sure, but it hasn't happened. yet.'
Whiskeyjack said nothing for a half-dozen heartbeats, then he reached for the tent flap. 'See you in the morning, Dujek.'
'Aye,' the High Fist replied.

Slightly ambiguous, but the preceding talk and this particular quote does suggest that Dujek and Tayschrenn are having regular conversations.

The passage preceding talks about how the Malazans' greatest fear is of Brood using his hammer. They are doing everything in their power to preserve the Empire, and deem Brood's hammer to be the biggest threat to it (and all existence on the planet), so thus the split and the leapfrog ahead of Brood were born.

Although I've laid out my opinions, I really do appreciate y'all raising the question though. Makes me work harder in my re-reads to justify my positions and consider other viewpoints. Good discussion, peeps.

[Luntmakarn]

I just finished an outraged email to a friend, containing the essence of this threads first posting. I just stopped reading, the bridgeburners and the 10th is getting mauled within and outside Coral just now........ Im all worked up!!!!! :-(

Man, I really was in for another turn of events. Anything but this.

I now number 2 destroyed armies on Onearm and WJ list. Outside Coral, and also, if you remember, outside Pale, where the 2:nd (or was it 5:th) was blown to kingdome come. The only real victory they can claim lately is against some routing and tattered pannions that happened to stumble past.

There once was a general in the Thirty Years War (a long time ago in a galaxy far away!) named Gallas. He carried the nickname (at least in Sweden, because he was our foe); "destroyer of armies". Innumerable was the armies he managed to annihilate, he was the best of foes, because the armies he destroyed were his own. Simply put: Incompetence impersonated. It is with sad regret I make the connection between Onearm/WJ and named General Gallas. This should not be.....

No lack of courage, of course (but I now wonder if it aint just plain stupidity that I see in those Malazans that seems to be very good at marching, and marching only). But the true sloppyness and disorder which they stumble upon those walls, attacking as they come by, one by one. Without any tactical plan, or given thought whatsoever. Earlier in the books it is mentioned great deeds to come, and a truly glorious war made by OA/WJ and their host.... but nothing of that... (if not yet to come....) They divide, they get exhausted, they attack (stumbling), and they get mauled, one by one... My feeling, though regrettable: They got what they deserved. Bastards!

If no REALLY(!) good reason is given, I would say Erikson has ruined his last 3000 pages of writing in a blow. If he wanted the dramatic effect, and the necessity of the death of Onearms host, he could have done it in any way, but letting them down like this, without even the chance of making a good swing seems pointless.

I want REVENGE!!!!!! :-)

Gotta be a shaved knuckle in this hole... gotta be!!

[amphibian]

Luntmakarn, did you read this thread? You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I at least am willing to give the Malazans a pass on this for the threat of Brood's hammer, which WAS about to be used, and the completely unpredicted uselessness of the T'lan Imass.

Pale's a different story. Nightchill killed A'Karonys, Tayschrenn killed her and Bellurdan and all four were smacking Moon's Spawn, on which Anomander Rake was smacking them right back. The mages were supposed to be able to protect the visible army enough and the Bridgeburners were supposed to be in the safest place (if Tayschrenn can be believed), but Rake overwhelmed the magery against him and the tunnels collapsed.

I see conflicting versions of what exactly was Gallas's competence online (decent, okay, one of history's worst), so I defer to you. Can you explain a little more about what made Gallas so bad in a PM or something?

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

Life in Erikson's world is nearly as cheap as it was during the 30 Years War. Throwing away an army or three is no big deal, so long as the outcome is acceptable.

Spoiler

It was even worse in the past, as I'm finding out with reading MT.

This post has been edited by Kruppe of Darujhistan: 16 July 2009 - 06:44 PM

[Luntmakarn]

Amphibian, sorry I was bantering away some. I wont compare WJ & Co with Gallas. It aint fair, by any means ;-)

My point is the drama.., that this ending (no matter the outcome, no matter the reasons) felt like a Rocky movie except that Mr Balboa shows up at the ring totally exhausted (after preparing for like the whole dang movie, you know; pushups and stairs and everything), takes a stumble, falls hitting the pole ang goes unconsious before the match has even starts,... Onearm deserved to make a good swing, not a pathetic tumble, the end result could be the same. It just felt like a waste of dramatic buildup, the 10th getting mauled, and thats all there is to it. I mean, compare this to Coltaine and the Wickans deeds in the Chain of Dogs, which is spine tingeling all the way to the end, honor beyond measure... Anyways its just a fiction.. lol.. Im going back to the books looking for the shaved knuckle in the hole.

Cheers!

[foolio]

I was definately under the impression that Dujek knew Artanthos was Tayshrenn from the beginning. Why else would he be given access to all the gatherings? I dont think a Claw would be afforded this respect and probably would have gotten a knife in the back. There is absolutely no doubty whatsoever that Silver Fox knew who he was from the moment she saw him.

There are many parts of the long series in which I have to stop analyzing some things and go with the flow. The strategy of WJ and Dujek towards the end of the book is one of these times...Absolutely love the books but some things will NEVER, EVER, make sense to me.

[PeteW]

Hello all - my first post here!

I have just reread MoI for the first time and here are my thoughts on the "debacle"...

WJ and DO knew that Artanthos was Tayschrenn. Imho Tayschrenn knew about the time of arrival of the incoming fleet with a pretty reasonable degree of accuracy. (No evidence, just a hunch.)

Tay was 'encouraging' DO and WJ to take Coral asap so that the empire would own it and not have to 'talk' to Brood etc. They had no idea where Rake was so didn't factor Spawn into things.

Destroying an army to build an empire? Who is going to care about soldiers? Laseen? Tayschrenn? No chance. Greedy swines. WJ and DO may well do, but Tay was the "dagger at their throats" as Brood (or someone else) puts it. The empire seems able to raise new armies at a moments notice!

Those are my 2 cents.

Look forward to posting more! Great site btw.

[foolio]

welcome to the boards PeteW

[Obdigore]

Oh god, the urge to push later book revelations are almost too much.

First - WJ and Dujek know it is Tays. Silverfox 'recognizes him', but dosen't know he is Tays, until she is walking towards him to confront him and gets ambushed by Kallor.

Secondly - Why split up the Host? It is a malazan tactic, and the tactic of many armies around the world, seem to be in control, and strike from where it is least expected. Those two tenents are huge in warfare.

Thirdly - The Malazans had no idea what Brood and Rake had planned. Do you really think that there was a lot of communication going on there? For all they knew, after they lined up outside the city, all the Tiste and Barghast magic users would be defending themselves and their people, and the malazans would have a repeat of Pale.

Fourth - The Malazans have been traditionally able to count upon one another. They counted about Silverfox(tattersail) to kill any remaining demons, while they handled the human advesaries. It didn't work out that way, but after you finish what has so far been written and do a re-read, you see how this entire sequence of events (the series, not just Coral and co) could have been changed by having slightly different timing.

Fifth - Thank the Bole Brothers for saving the rest of the Malazans.

Sixth - If it wasn't for the condors and k'ell hunters, which whiskeyjack/dujek didn't think they would need to worry about or didn't know about, inserting the BB's into the keep to take the Seer would have worked. It would have ended the war much faster.

Seventh - Moranth Munitions, dropped from Quorls, onto massed enemy placements is an amazing strategy I didn't even think about until they were doing it. Did you also notice that the Host is the only army in the world that has heavy infantry charge, hurl javelins from 12 paces away, draw swords, and continue the charge?

Conclusion: Dujek and Whiskeyjack are amazing officers. Their Host, while still brittle from the failure at Pale, was one of the best fighting forces in the world. Their operation would have been a resounding sucess if their intelligence (not of the two, what they were told) was better, or if their allies had done their parts.

As an aside - when have two seperate military forces ever shared all information? Especially two that were at war just months before? Especially when the other one is already keeping secrets, and they have been blunt about it?

As a second aside - Moons Spawn was filled with Water, and Rake could not keep it in the sky any longer, and the two warlocks and him had done a full unveiling of darkness. Can you tell me for a fact that if it had slid into the cut while open to the warren that we wouldn't have a much darker nascent realm? I think not. You haven't found the nascent yet. Bah, next book.