[sharper]

Spoilers.

So, having just finished MOI, it occurs to me that Dujek and Whiskyjack are in fact a pair of idiots who should never have been allowed anywhere near the high command of an army. Why on earth do they decide to split the combined army up? Am I missing something? I know there was a scene 'explaining' the reason for it, something to do with the rebellion in Seven Cities iirc, but it was all a bit too murky for me, to be honest.

They had a perfectly good plan, two big armies, Brood's and the Malazans, plus tens of thousands of those cheery Barghast fellas were to meet up somewhere and get to smitin.' But no, apparently that makes far too much sense. Instead, Dujek thunders off into Coral with too few soldiers, WJ exhausts the other half of the army trying to catch up with the result that, when they finally arrive, they're too knackered to fight. Finally Brood arrives too late to save them, yet still appears to have left the Barghast behind. Result: this huge allied army gets destroyed in detail.

Imagine what might have happened had they advanced on the enemy in a cautious and professional manner, conserving their strength, making sure the soldiers were properly fed and rested. Figuring out a joint approach, tactical dispositions and the like after proper recce work. Coral wasn't going anywhere, after all. Nope, too easy. What gets me is that Dujek even after he knew he was over-matched, still had the opportunity to withdraw, but decided (admittedly along with Paran and Quick Ben) that it'd still be worth it to throw his division of the army away in the hope that they'd get a positive kill ratio and thus 'save lives.' What he actually did was weaken the allied war effort by getting his army involved in a battle it couldn't win, for no strategic gain, forcing the rest of the allies to react precipitously in order to try and rescue his sorry hide.

Please tell me I'm just not getting Dujek's brilliant operational masterstroke...

This post has been edited by sharper: 18 June 2009 - 05:15 PM

[Mirthmonkey]

My impression was that the quick approach to Coral was in the hopes of catching the Seer somewhat off-guard by arriving before his preparations were complete.

That doesn't explain the splitting of the armies or Dujek and Whiskeyjack not informing Brood and the Barghast of their plans.

And what happened to the Barghast is a good question too. Why did they apparently fall behind even Brood's army? The Barghast are apparently a fierce warrior people. Maybe they would have faired slightly better against those ridiculously fast undead lizards.

[D'rek]

Yup, pretty much!



Ha, no actually, there are some supposed reasons for it all, but you'll have to decide for yourself if they're any good. First of all, the BBs taking the tunnels in the forest was a good move. Generals on both sides declare the Pannion ambush troops in those tunnels would have been devastating to the allied forces, so taking them from the Pannions, plus all the supplies in them, was tactically sound. They held the positions as long as they reasonably could, the only weird bit is why they didn't think they could pull back after the second battle. Weird.

In the larger scheme, the Malazans were supposedly trying to ensure that they were the ones to take down the Seer. The idea was that if Brood ended up in the thick of things, there was too great a chance he would use his hammer, awaken Burn and crush all civilizations, including the Empire. If Rake got to the Seer first, he'd Dragnipur the Seer and they could not use the Seer for QB's subterfuge with Burn.

Frankly, the reasons given are fairly weak but most of the actions hold up fairly well. The major one that ruins it all to me is Dujek flying in to coral instead of just pulling back, but supposedly WJ could've gotten to Coral much faster but there were delays every day of the march since the barges. If you want to further excuse them, they expected any more K'ell Hunters to be dealt with by the Silverfox's T'lan Imass, which would've happened if not for Itkovian. The forces they brought did indeed seem to be enough to deal with the human Pannion forces still in the city, despite leaving behind many Rhivi and Barghast.

[D'rek]

Mirthmonkey, on Jun 18 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

And what happened to the Barghast is a good question too. Why did they apparently fall behind even Brood's army? The Barghast are apparently a fierce warrior people. Maybe they would have faired slightly better against those ridiculously fast undead lizards.

A small number of the White Faces were at Coral, but tens of thousands were left behind because the Malazans didn't have enough barges on the river, so those forced to walk were several days behind.

[Khellendros]

The reason given that always stuck in my mind was that they wanted to ensure that the Malazans were the ones who conquered Coral and thus the Pannion Domin - i.e. in the name of the Empress and the Malazan Empire, so that it would be indisputably part of the imperial expansion. Of course, things didn't quite work out that way.

[Mirthmonkey]

D'rek, on Jun 18 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

Ha, no actually, there are some supposed reasons for it all, but you'll have to decide for yourself if they're any good. First of all, the BBs taking the tunnels in the forest was a good move. Generals on both sides declare the Pannion ambush troops in those tunnels would have been devastating to the allied forces, so taking them from the Pannions, plus all the supplies in them, was tactically sound. They held the positions as long as they reasonably could, the only weird bit is why they didn't think they could pull back after the second battle. Weird.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention the tunnels. By getting there fast, they were able to interrupt the Seer's preparations, which was their goal. though I'm still not getting why they didn't tell their allies (Brood, etc.) what they intended. Their allies got suspicious along the way.

Plus like you, I thought their decision to push on in to Coral instead of withdrawing when things started going south seemed strange.

[Aptorian]

Khellendros, on Jun 18 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

The reason given that always stuck in my mind was that they wanted to ensure that the Malazans were the ones who conquered Coral and thus the Pannion Domin - i.e. in the name of the Empress and the Malazan Empire, so that it would be indisputably part of the imperial expansion. Of course, things didn't quite work out that way.

This is wrong. This was never Dujek or WJs intention, since they clearly expected to get fucked up in the end. What they did was a sacrific.

They details are blurry but some solid arguments I remember have been mentioned above. Basically they hoped to take the Panions by surprise, springing what ever traps they had and doing some crucial sabotage and disorder while they were at it. None of them had any illusions as to the power of the seer.

If anything blame Itkovian, if that bastard could just have stayed his eager hands, the Imass would have pulverised the Panions.

[Wampyry]

Apt,

Quote

This is wrong. This was never Dujek or WJs intention, since they clearly expected to get fucked up in the end. What they did was a sacrific.

They details are blurry but some solid arguments I remember have been mentioned above. Basically they hoped to take the Panions by surprise, springing what ever traps they had and doing some crucial sabotage and disorder while they were at it. None of them had any illusions as to the power of the seer.

If anything blame Itkovian, if that bastard could just have stayed his eager hands, the Imass would have pulverised the Panions.

Agree with Apt, if Itkovian had only thought "I am done - for now" the T'lan would have killed everything. Problem was the Seer and Matron needed to be alive alive so QB and Paran could save Burn. There was mistrust building between the two armies again. No tellling what Brood would have done. He may have been relieved that the choice to use the hammer or not was taken away from him Think the bottom line is that Erikson was done with Dujek, WJ story lines and it was time to move on.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 18 June 2009 - 09:58 PM

[D'rek]

Well I wouldn't go so far as to say the T'lan Imass would have killed everything, as I recall Silverfox saying they would only kill the KCCM and the Seer. The KCCM are what really ass-raped the allied forces, so that definitely would've changed a lot. Kilava was already at the Seer so I doubt Itkovian's actions would've changed anything in that regard, but the potential was still there as well.

[Aptorian]

I just wanted to have a scene with thousands of Imass warriors and KCCM clashing in a giant dustcloud of undead giblets flying everywhere, and cadres of Bonecasters throwing holy hell at the Panion City, just completely and utterly wiping it off the face of the planet.

Maybe a gratuitous scene with Olar Ethil devouring Panion.

[Khellendros]

Aptorian, on Jun 18 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

Khellendros, on Jun 18 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

The reason given that always stuck in my mind was that they wanted to ensure that the Malazans were the ones who conquered Coral and thus the Pannion Domin - i.e. in the name of the Empress and the Malazan Empire, so that it would be indisputably part of the imperial expansion. Of course, things didn't quite work out that way.

This is wrong. This was never Dujek or WJs intention, since they clearly expected to get fucked up in the end. What they did was a sacrific.

They details are blurry but some solid arguments I remember have been mentioned above. Basically they hoped to take the Panions by surprise, springing what ever traps they had and doing some crucial sabotage and disorder while they were at it. None of them had any illusions as to the power of the seer.

If anything blame Itkovian, if that bastard could just have stayed his eager hands, the Imass would have pulverised the Panions.

Actually, it isn't

Hence the Malazan ships suddenly 'appearing' on the coast after the battle. Remember, the guy aboard (Aragan I think) was coming either as an ambassador, diplomat, ruling Fist, etc. depending on how things turned out. Obviously, the best case scenario, for the Empire, would have been if the Malazans had managed to do it all on their own.

Remember that Dujek and WJ were constrained by the hand of the Empress via Tayschrenn's presence. They weren't outlawed, as we all now, and were thus still to some extent doing everything in the service of the Empire. Yes, they recognised that the Pannion Domin was some bad shit which needed to be taken down, but that doesn't mean that everything was being done altruistically.

So, to me, the only way you can explain why Dujek and WJ decided to keep Brood out of the loop is not because they wanted to be some valiant sacrifice (which is stupid and they would never have knowingly sent their soldiers to their doom that way), but because it was part of what they had to do in order to attempt to expand the Empire's borders - as well as, of course, taking down a threat to the world's existence

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on Jun 18 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

If anything blame Itkovian, if that bastard could just have stayed his eager hands, the Imass would have pulverised the Panions.

I like the way you think anything we learnt about Itkovian even implied he ever had a choice about that.

[Aptorian]

Bah the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Zanth13]

and candy....


The only thing I wasnt sure about was Rakes plan really necessary...

Crash Moonspawn... Really? did it even help that much

[Sinisdar Toste]

when it comes to rake, i believe his and broods plans were also twofold, secret and public. one, to surprise pannion and ensure success in conquering coral (what they told dujek and WJ) and two, (the secret part) to keep coral and the liberated cities from malazan hands, brood and rake, despite fighting with and treating with the malazans quite cordially, are ancient ascendants, they know how the game is played and had this as a contingency.

[Kryphon]

And had Rake known the Malazan's were there early he may have unvieled Moon's Spawn. Since Dujek got there ahead of schedule he was still hiding, waiting. And didn't he send all the Tiste with Brood? I can't remember exactly, but I think he was alone with MS. I'd have still taken him alone to crush a few thousand of the Pannions, and Dragnipur would have thanked him. So again, lack of communication screws the BBs and the other Malazan troops. Secrecy causes more deaths and ultimately accomplishes nothing.

[Stiehl9s]

the BB's scrambled ahead to surprise the Pannions. they were worried (and rightly so after finding the trenches) of the Pannion setting a trap for the armies and wanted to find out what it was before being spotted by the Seer's condors.
Dujek flew ahead (WJ later tells Brood why) to ensure the Malazan involvement but also because they were unsure of what Rake had planned.
and it was mentioned that the Barghast and Grey Swords were in no hurry.
imho Itkovian fucked it all up trying to be mr holier than thou.
thank Treach for Gruntle and his followers pulling their weight with the KCCM

This post has been edited by Stiehl9s: 01 July 2009 - 11:47 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Stiehl9s, on Jul 1 2009, 01:44 PM, said:

.
imho Itkovian fucked it all up trying to be mr holier than thou.
thank Treach for Gruntle and his followers pulling their weight with the KCCM

I think you are all blaming Itkovian too much for the slaughter that was Coral. Sure, the T'lann Imass could have engaged the KCCM, but if I remember correctly outside Capustan it was the T'lann Ay that destroyed the KCCM not the T'lann Imass. In the end I think much wouldn't have changed.
And Gruntle's Army got cutted to pieces anyway.

[beru]

the tlan imass would have ript the KCCM to peaces in seconds, Olar ethil was there...

[Icarium Kalam]

sharper, on Jun 18 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

Spoilers.

So, having just finished MOI, it occurs to me that Dujek and Whiskyjack are in fact a pair of idiots who should never have been allowed anywhere near the high command of an army. Why on earth do they decide to split the combined army up? Am I missing something? I know there was a scene 'explaining' the reason for it, something to do with the rebellion in Seven Cities iirc, but it was all a bit too murky for me, to be honest.

They had a perfectly good plan, two big armies, Brood's and the Malazans, plus tens of thousands of those cheery Barghast fellas were to meet up somewhere and get to smitin.' But no, apparently that makes far too much sense. Instead, Dujek thunders off into Coral with too few soldiers, WJ exhausts the other half of the army trying to catch up with the result that, when they finally arrive, they're too knackered to fight. Finally Brood arrives too late to save them, yet still appears to have left the Barghast behind. Result: this huge allied army gets destroyed in detail.

Imagine what might have happened had they advanced on the enemy in a cautious and professional manner, conserving their strength, making sure the soldiers were properly fed and rested. Figuring out a joint approach, tactical dispositions and the like after proper recce work. Coral wasn't going anywhere, after all. Nope, too easy. What gets me is that Dujek even after he knew he was over-matched, still had the opportunity to withdraw, but decided (admittedly along with Paran and Quick Ben) that it'd still be worth it to throw his division of the army away in the hope that they'd get a positive kill ratio and thus 'save lives.' What he actually did was weaken the allied war effort by getting his army involved in a battle it couldn't win, for no strategic gain, forcing the rest of the allies to react precipitously in order to try and rescue his sorry hide.

Please tell me I'm just not getting Dujek's brilliant operational masterstroke...

you speak blasphemy