[Sixty]

Thanks! Looks like I'm working in the right direction.

edit: do you think it's a big deal if Erland doesn't come back in this story? I planned on using him in a sequel, but if he doesn't make a reappearance here...:S

This post has been edited by Sixty: 12 July 2009 - 02:33 AM

[Fist Gamet]

Well, I think you made such a solid start with Erland (and I liked him immediately) that he would make a great support character. If it were me, I think I would have Erland buddy up in my story with Redin. I can imagine the dialogue between them and the scrapes they get into right now. Doesn't mean you can't bring him into his own later as you planned. However, I don't think it would be a good idea to bring him into the start of book one and then vanish him.

[Sixty]

Hmm. I'd have to contrive some way to shove him back into the plot, or to lessen the impact he has in this individual chapter. Perhaps I could rewrite it so he refuses and is dragged away to be executed or something. Dunno.

[Fist Gamet]

SPOILERS


Not sure I understood you, mate. I thought that Erland was a very independent and cocky sort of merc, and with Stephen ?dead? he could be free to do whatever he wanted, I guess. I cannot see how it would be a problem for someone with Redin's influence to get him released from service (if it required that) in order to help him. I don't think you would need to 'contrive' anything. Just seems a shame not to use what struck me as a very interesting character.

[Sixty]

I already have the entire novel written through chapter 30 and an epilogue...can't completely rewrite the plot like that. My alternative, if Erland's disappearance was an issue, is to just have his impudence be too much for Stephen, who orders him executed.

[Sixty]

Sent out chapter 4. I'm still rethinking the Erland situation...leaning toward just killing him off tbh to emphasize Stephen's ego issues.

Let me know what you guys think. D:

[Fist Gamet]

Ah, understood. Still, would be a real shame to kill him (unless of course you write him in a couple of extra scenes then give him a really cool death!) I am a big fan of death scenes (in a strictly non-morbid way, you understand ) but I prefer the dramatic and self-sacrificing ones to the poignant and pointless - although they certainly have their place.

Got Ch 4 now

Cheers

[Yellow]

Ok, chapter 3. Sorry it's been a while but I've been really busy (getting married on Saturday!) so this will be the last you'll hear from me for a few weeks.

Typing as I go...

I would start this chapter with the "Please, O Raetor" line, as the earlier stuff feels like preamble. I think you could get that stuff in throughout if you think it's necessary, but the line above feels more actiony (new word).

The early section feels very stand-off-ish. "A sardonic grin was bared, and Stephen's judgment fell." I think I know what you're going for here, but I would prefer it to be a little less passive. "Arrays of weaponry... ...exuded menace" and "Thumps rang" also fell into this category I think.

"The fat one's knees thudded to the ground." I liked that. You have a great way with these little details, as I think I've said before. I think it's especially effective when it's simple, direct and to the point.

Erland's indoctrination felt a little bit too easy... I know he's a mercenary, so he's probably thinking of work and money, but I would have thought a professional merc would be more wary of getting involved with religion. After all, will he be free to leave whenever he wants? I don't know the Enlightened very well by this point, so maybe my concern is not a problem.

The first conversation between Heath and Stephen was well done, it flowed naturally and Heath came across as a pretty intelligent guy.

"The gaunt, pallid thief stood with head bowed, his hands, unmarred by criminal's ink for employment's discretion only, pressed against the floor as if hailing a god incarnate" Wow, that's a long sentence, and I'm not even sure what it means Criminal's ink? I'm guessing some kind of tatooing of crims to mark them, but employment's discretion is an odd phrase.

I'm starting to get a better feel for the politics, now. Previously I wasn't sure who Leo was in the grand scheme of things, but it's becoming clearer.

The part with the messenger was played out well, too. A real sense of shit happening left, right and centre, with his thoughts all cut off and jumbled, etc. And a sense of urgency came through when the name "Fehl" was mentioned.

"Death's endurance was infinite--what man could survive it?" Er, none? I think this line is a bit of over-kill. The previous line was great and did the job well enough.

Interesting end to the scene. The drowning was very vivid, especially with the gurgling part. I liked how Stephen's last thought was that he'd failed the Great Lord, which shows (to me, at least) that Stephen was once a devout man, and maybe even believed he was all the way to the end... but somewhere along the line he had lost his way. I really liked that.

I did find it a little surprising that you spent all this time with Stephen just to kill him off, but I shall trust in your judgement

One last thing - I think Stephen swears a bit too much. I'm not a tree-hugging prude, but I think it was a little overboard.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 14 July 2009 - 09:41 PM

[Yellow]

Sixty, on Jul 12 2009, 03:32 AM, said:

Thanks! Looks like I'm working in the right direction.

edit: do you think it's a big deal if Erland doesn't come back in this story? I planned on using him in a sequel, but if he doesn't make a reappearance here...:S

I definitely got the sense that he would be a fairly major character in the book...

[Sixty]

Oh, damn. Congrats Yellow!

As for Erland, well...I'm thinking I might want to make him more resistant and kill him off. Something noted for me. But the indoctrination here is more of a "he realizes he's dead otherwise" sort of deal.

Thanks for the other comments, though. I'm trying to watch out for the awkwardly phrased sections and you guys are helping out.

But tbh Erland isn't too important. In the end, the major groups of characters are:
-A mercenary company Redin meets later in the book (Around chapter 8)
-Marcus and the Koltar (Marcus's first PoV is chapter 6)
-The generals in the Debellan Army (First PoV is around chapter 16)
-Redin/Syr (Chapter 1)
-Selyse, Stephen's daughter and the Enlightened (First PoV is chapter 4)
-Fehl (First PoV is chapter 9)

Out of 30 chapters total.

Also, about the swearing--before the Enlightened beginning 2~2.5 years prior, he was a commoner and a former soldier/mercenary/guard sort of deal. And he has temper tantrums.
Swearing is probably a little in excess--I think there's about ~250 uses of "fuck" or its variants throughout the book, all in dialogue. I'm thinking about toning it down, but I find it's a good way to communicate when people are angry/under duress.

Thanks guys.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 15 July 2009 - 01:55 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Read chapter 4. You started it pretty well by showing us Selys'se grief and her need for vengeance. To me it seemed a good way to display emotions.

The entrance in Trent was also very well done althoug I found the continuos trampling of men under horse a bit repetitive.

However the dialogue with Leo and the plannings were, well, boring. Even the cliffhanger didn't have much impact. I liked how you described the soldier, but instead of ending the chapter with him just telling them that they are under attack, you could ,for example,make them go and see whose attacking them and be astounded when they see how many they are( of course this is just a hyipotetical ending since I've got no idea how you are continuing the story ).

Also there is this sentence:
Leaving me? And what the hell am I but the Raetor’s daughter?
But the Raetor…the Raetor is dead. So I’m nothing. The daughter of a dead man. And
nothing more.

The second sentence seems a bit redundant. It's pretty clear what you want to say just with the first one, which is ,by the way, great.

[Sixty]

Thanks. =) Good point about the trampling. I'll look into the conversation and try to find some way to make it more interesting...might cut it off partway through with the soldier coming in.

Oh, and as an fyi: the next chapter describes the battle itself.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 15 July 2009 - 09:52 AM

[Fist Gamet]

On Yellow's earlier point: I too have spent a great deal of time recently weeding out passive sentences in my own work (though leaving those that are appropriate) and chaning many to the active voice has really made a difference.

As to Chapter 4

“…she never saw her father alive again…” A strange line for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don’t like the switch to future tense here, it is not in keeping with the rest of the scene – especially so as it was a frantic, action scene. Also, any hint of doubt about whether or not he is dead is crushed and that left me a little deflated. If it is a clever play on words and he lives but she just never saw him again then I think it’s a bit too clever and I would feel a bit cheated as the reader.

Cogitation? I have accepted you won’t budge on the fancy writing, and fair enough, but this word stuck out like a sore thumb. I think it was mostly because it made the sentence a bit clumsy, imho.

“…Delusions of invincibility were of no currency…” I understand what you are trying to say but that was a horrible sentence to read. To my mind, in the previous chapter you walked the line perfectly but in the first page here you might have crossed the line into the pretentious.

I guess I thought that the philosophising was inappropriate at the moment she believes she just lost her father. Such thoughts come far later in the grieving process.

I can’t believe they rode away without spending even an hour searching downriver.

I have spent a bit of time mulling over why the opening to this chapter doesn’t work for me, and I have decided it is mainly to do with the grieving. Selyse just watched her father die and her reaction was almost immediately one of acceptance. There are well known stages of grieving that have a degree of flexibility, but acceptance is never the first one - it is the last one. Then just as they are ambushed she backtracks to a stage of anger, without ever having been through denial.
I am not trying to pick holes here, but Selyse has just lost her father (so she believes) and if we, as writers, are going to explore such immediate human scenarios, we need to make them very believable. If we don’t then I think we lose credibility. There is a story of real human anguish and loss to be told in Selyse, one which we either can or will one day be able to relate to. The risk is that by glossing over it you make it seem that Stephen's death is just an excuse to set her up as the Raetor with a vengeful agenda.

Wasn’t Fehl the secretive criminal in the underground tunnels? I don’t get why he has suddenly gathered 3000 people in one area as though his warehouse were a castle and he a military leader. I feel I missed something.
I was also surprised at the reliability and accuracy of Leo’s troop dispositions. How does he keep track of all that, and keep it up to date in the chaos of an uprising in the entire city? I may well be way off the mark but it seems that you are almost painting a picture for the reader in order to ensure they don’t get geographically lost in the chaos to come.
I don’t think this chapter was as good as the previous one. I felt you handled the action well in the previous chapter but not in this one. I have already explained why I don’t find Selyse believable, and I expected there to be at least one or two contenders for Raetor upon hearing of Stephen’s death (ones who wouldn’t take kindly to his daughter being handed the power)

Ultimately, because the grieving didn’t work, and all Selyse’s actions and thoughts in this chapter stem from that, the chapter didn’t work.

I am very interested to know what you think of all that.

[Sixty]

Thanks for the comments; I'll consider them. I've rewritten chapters 4 and 5 several times, and I'm unsure how well they work.

You make a good point about the grieving--I like what I have, but I understand where you're coming from.

About the search--my personal belief is that Stephen still does have influence over a lot of people, and part of his belief remains that the Enlightened is paramount. That is, stopping the rebellion is their chief priority.

Fehl is a secretive criminal, yes, but one with far-reaching/extensive influence. And with that influence, he has also subverted/convinced many people among the Enlightened itself to his revolt. In addition, part of this is provoking riots--mob mentality and whatnot.

Fair enough about Leo. He certainly isn't perfect, but the information's about as reliable as he could make it in their situation. Might be better to make its details more vague.

As for Selyse herself--I'm very unsure about the characterization for her. I've done my best to make it realistic but have yet to get comprehensive opinions on it. She becomes embittered, obviously, by events precipitated by her father. Her takeover is obviously opposed/disliked by some, but my take is that even the sycophants/demagogues have to follow the faith...and part of the faith is that the Raetor is very very important.

Let me know what you think. I might rewrite it and send it again some time later.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Sixty , I just wanted to say that this tuesday I will go abroad and I'll stay for a month without internet, so don't bother sending me the next chapters.
Thanks again for sharing your work.

[Sixty]

Sounds good. Thanks for all the C&C.

[Sixty]

I've rewritten the end of the scene w/ Erland to kill him off. I've charted out how I want the plot to progress (generally) for the rest of the book, and with Stephen dead I don't think there's much of a point in keeping Erland alive. Also helps explain the Stephen/Redin dynamic a little...

Quote

Feeling magnanimous, Stephen said, “The Great Lord welcomes all new followers—another within the fold is of no consequence.”
The mercenary scratched at yellow stubble on his chin and pursed his lips. He opened his mouth, reconsidered, then shut it. “A most amenable offer.”
“It is indeed, wouldn’t you agree…?”
“Erland.”
“Erland. Particularly agreeable, given the circumstances. The city of Trent is, after all, the Great Lord’s domain.”
“Now a domain with one more resident. Provided—”
“Provided what?” Stephen narrowed his eyes. Such impudence…perhaps this really can’t be ground out. Bargaining with me? By extension, the Great Lord? He scowled. Who the hell does he think he is?
Erland faltered and caught himself. His features went rigid. “I…perhaps I used the wrong word when I—”
“When you what? When you attempted to bargain with the Great Lord?” Even Redin did not approach such audacity! Sarcasm, perhaps, but his ability superseded small annoyances. And there was a fine line between heresy and irritation. Some could maintain that balancing act, but others…
Others tumbled to their deaths.
Erland remained speechless. His face had slackened, his bravado evaporated. All a silly façade—and to think he had me fooled! Stephen grinned for the second time that day. “Your silence is your condemnation. Guards, take him out.”
The mercenary leapt into action, spinning toward the nearest guard, his fist whipping—
Three guards converged upon him, hammered him into the ground. Bones cracked and snapped. Erland began to scream before another blow shattered his jaw. Then he was hoisted over one guard’s shoulder and carried from the room.
Through it all, Stephen did not blink.
The former Lord Erving stepped forward to offer a glass of wine. Stephen tore it from his hands, drained it in a single gulp. Warmth descended his gullet, but all enjoyment was absent. Near-death had a vexatious habit, it seemed, of dulling his pleasure. He scowled and watched Erving slink away.

What do you guys think?

[Fist Gamet]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

This post has been edited by Fist Gamet: 25 July 2009 - 09:18 PM

[Fist Gamet]

Is there no chance of getting any more of your work, Sixty?

[Sixty]

I started work on book #2, but I'll scan through chapter 5 and send it to you.

Bauchelain and Yellow have stopped, though, so I think 5 or 6 might be my last for a while.