[Sixty]

Also,

I've been toying around with query letters for a while. I'm having a very difficult time meeting all of my criteria:
-Coherent and relatively easy to follow
-Flows well
-Describes all the basic elements of the plot
-Makes the reader want to learn more

Here's what I've come up with:

Quote

In the wake of a hated cult’s failed assassination attempt, Stephen Connault’s rebellion against the Debellan empire is flung into uproar. His senior lieutenant betrays him to an underground resistance, and the emperor assembles an army to crush the revolt. But as a crusade mounts in retaliation, Stephen’s successor nears apostasy…and the cult’s own ancient plots converge.

My main issues with this:
-The first sentence, despite holding all critical information (while retaining the "flow"), feels very wordy to me.
-I don't like the wording of "...an army to crush the revolt" but I can't think of a superior alternative.
-I feel like I'm putting unnecessary emphasis on Stephen when he dies at the end of the 3rd chapter.

I want to introduce, with this, the primary conflicts:
-Stephen's senior lieutenant (Redin) and his betrayal of Stephen (along with subsequently following through in pursuit of his other goals)
-The emperor's army as it marches south to crush Stephen's rebellion (i.e. The Enlightened)
-Selyse, Stephen's daughter, has replaced him but is becoming disillusioned (but must lead or effectively betray her father and get herself killed by the zealots)

And I think I've accomplished that...the main thing is perfecting the rest.

What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by Sixty: 31 July 2009 - 09:11 PM

[Grief]

Seems pretty good to me-a couple of things:

Not sure about "His senior Lieutenant..."

I think it seems too abrupt.

I prefer something along the lines of:

He is betrayed by his senior lieutenant to an underground resistance...

Another note: Senior lieutenant seems rather impersonal-something like "a close friend" holds more impact in my opinion.

I can't help you with army to crush the revolt really.

I think it may also be good to mention that Stephens successor is his daughter:

A possible alternative-just trying to implement what I mean.

In the wake of a hated cult’s failed assassination attempt, Stephen Connault’s rebellion against the Debellan empire is flung into uproar. Amongst growing rumours of the Emperor assembling an army to crush the revolt, a close friend betrays Stephen to an underground resistance. But as a crusade mounts in retaliation, Stephen’s daughter nears apostasy…and the cult’s own ancient plots converge.

That's just my take on it though- I feel his daughter should be mentioned somewhere, and also felt the second sentence too abrupt-though this may be as a result of the first being too wordy(though it doesn't really strike me as such).

Anyhow, that's my thoughts. It may have came out badly worded on what I mean, but I'm tired. Hope it helps.

[Sixty]

Thanks for the advice. I was suggested to rewrite it to better reflect that the primary PoV/protagonist characters are:
-Redin/Syr (the lieutenant who actually hates Stephen =/), his betrayal, and subsequent pursuit of his own goals (against the cult / Koltar)
-Selyse (Stephen's daughter), her increasing disillusionment in her new role

The single biggest plot thread is the conflict between Stephen's rebellion (the Enlightened) and the Debellan empire; on the other hand, I also want to include the cult (the Koltar) and their plans as well as the above-mentioned individual plots.

[Fist Gamet]

Hmmm, these are so difficult to do. I had a go, though.


The Debellan Empire is in chaos; Stephen Connault has led the Enlightened into rebellion against the Emperor and survived an assassination attempt by the hated cult. Betrayed by those closest to him, the fate of the rebellion falls to his daughter, Selyse. Yet she is untested, uncertain, and faced with the threats of the Emperor’s vengeful army, and the sinister cult’s own tangled plots.

Or


The Debellan Empire is in chaos; Stephen Connault has led the Enlightened into rebellion against the Emperor and survived an assassination attempt by the hated cult. Betrayed by those closest to him, the fate of the rebellion falls to his daughter. Yet Selyse is untested, uncertain, and faced with the threats of the Emperor’s vengeful army, and the sinister cult’s own tangled plots, she will be lucky to survive the year.

[Sixty]

Thanks for the suggestion Gamet. The only issue I see so far is that your focus seems to begin on the Empire itself, which is great, only for it to shift toward Selyse, who is very important but not exactly the story's only protagonist. You know?

I've since decided to give up on the 3-paragraph rule for queries because it was clearly not made with complex epic fantasy in mind and, while making slight modifications to my first paragraph, adding a second for clarification.

What do you guys think of this?

Quote

Assailed by a hated cult and its assassins, messiah Stephen Connault’s Enlightened rebellion is crumbling. Its chief lieutenant, convinced his options are exhausted, betrays Stephen to flee in the chaos. Stephen’s daughter succeeds her father as messiah, but she finds sudden disillusionment in her new position. Then the news arrives: the empire’s army, a hundred thousand strong, marches on the eastern border…

With new intents in mind, traitorous lieutenant Syr Treidin—or Redin, as others know him—sets out in search of the cult’s leader. Surrounded by sycophants and hypocrites, Stephen’s daughter Selyse struggles to reconcile herself with her duty. And spurred by vengeance on its former subjects, the empire’s army marches unimpeded…but the cult’s ancient plots are converging.

Also does what I want since it implies that the cult's plots affect the Debellan empire more than anything else.

Thanks for the comments so far.

[Fist Gamet]

I must have misunderstood when you said the single biggest plot is the conflict between the rebellion and the empire - that was why I thought it would be the central focus. No matter.

On to the new one. There are still a couple of lines that I am not sure about

"...a hated cult..." would it be better to name the cult?
"...succeeds her father as messiah..." it is probably because of my own concept of a messiah but I never thought it was something that could be 'passed on', so to speak, almost like a hereditary title. I know from reading it that it is not like that but I wonder if that would be the impression I would get from the blurb.
"...the cult's ancient plots are converging..." I don't think you are even happy with that. I don't know what it is...it sounds like it is something the cult is doing deliberately...or maybe it is just the idea of ancient plots...or that it could mean just anything at all, perhaps being too vague for someone who knows nothing of your work.

[Sixty]

Mhhmm. I don't know what do with the last line, there, because I want it to feel a little dramatic but I don't know how to phrase that so it flows with the previous paragraph.

The messiah bit could be the problem, but I'm unsure how else I can word it so that it still reflects the religious bent of the position.

I don't really want to name names because a flood of names, while fine for you who's read the beginning, is really confusing when presented with several at once.

Also, while the central focus is the conflict between the rebellion and the empire, Selyse is not the only PoV with a major role in that conflict. I later add a PoV from the army's marshal (commander-in-chief) as well as a mercenary who ends up fighting for the empire, so I don't want to focus just on Selyse.

Thanks.

[Sixty]

I've been doing a lot of work and rewrites on the query. On a time/word basis I think I've spent 10x more time on this query (proportionally) than any other portion of the entire novel. -.-

Quote

Assailed by a hated cult and its magic-wielding assassins, messiah Stephen Connault’s Enlightened rebellion is crumbling. Its chief lieutenant, convinced his options are exhausted, betrays Stephen to flee in the chaos. Stephen’s daughter succeeds her father, but she finds sudden disillusionment in her new position. Then the news arrives: the empire’s army, a hundred thousand strong, is marching on the eastern border…

After killing Stephen, former lieutenant Syr Treidin sets out in search of the cult’s leader with vengeance in mind. However, he is dogged by his past: his own quarry and the emperor both seem to stalk his movements. Meanwhile, surrounded by sycophants and hypocrites, Stephen’s daughter Selyse struggles to reconcile herself with her duty. But a crusade is mounting to meet the empire’s army, and she must lead the rebellion’s forces…even as the cult plots a coup to shatter the world’s foundations.

What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by Sixty: 05 August 2009 - 11:30 PM

[Yellow]

Sixty, on Jul 27 2009, 10:11 PM, said:

I started work on book #2, but I'll scan through chapter 5 and send it to you.

Bauchelain and Yellow have stopped, though, so I think 5 or 6 might be my last for a while.

I didn't stop, I went on holiday I still have one of your chapters here, which I'm going to read this weekend. There's a lot of stuff to catch up on, but I'm getting there!

Same goes for Gamet - I think I've run out of stuff to read in Gamet's WIP. So another chapter would be good! (sorry for not posting this in the Gamet thread, but I'm sure he'll see this )

[Grimjust Bearegular]

So, I’ve read the prologue and the first chapter and decided to write down my initial thoughts. I realized I’d read the prologue before, but I think it was better this time. It did the job of grabbing my attention and making me want read more, which I did:P
It also seems to introduce the story quite well, judging from what I’ve read so far.

I have a few comments regarding chapter one, will probably have more when I reread things and scrutinize every word, but these are the things that I immediately thought of when I read it.

Your dialogue-writing skills are very good. Your conversations flow naturally, and don’t seem forced or weird; they seem very believable.

The Raat part confused me. What is it, what does it do exactly? Why was what Redin did so horrible? Why did he loose control all of a sudden( he seems like a very strong-willed man, keeping Stephen out of his head and all)? The attack scene seemed a little rushed, but just a little.

The way we find out that Redin is an infiltrator is like being hit over the head, Goodkind- style (sorry about that). Any way you can make it a little more subtle? I kinda felt a little cheated when I wasn’t given the opportunity to figure out Redin’s affiliations for myself.

Finally, Selyse. She’s described as being a willowy woman, yet she swaggers out the door at the end. Is she secretly a pirate or a lumberjack? Because I totally didn’t get that:P

[Yellow]

Sixty, on Aug 6 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

What do you guys think?

I thought that was pretty good, myself One thing I would say is that it's not clear who Syr Treidin is looking for vengeance on. He's the one who killed Stephen, so the way it is written confuses me. Shouldn't someone be seeking vengeance from him, rather than the other way round?

If you're interested in more query letter stuff, I'd recommend the following thread on SFFWorld:

http://sffworld.com/...read.php?t=8791

Keep an eye out for any advice/posts by KatG. She used to work either as or for an editor (can't remember which), and she knows what she's talking about with this kind of stuff.

See if you can spot my attempt at a query letter on there!

This post has been edited by Yellow: 07 August 2009 - 01:31 PM

[Sixty]

Grimhilde, on Aug 7 2009, 09:02 AM, said:

So, I’ve read the prologue and the first chapter and decided to write down my initial thoughts. I realized I’d read the prologue before, but I think it was better this time. It did the job of grabbing my attention and making me want read more, which I did:P
It also seems to introduce the story quite well, judging from what I’ve read so far.

I have a few comments regarding chapter one, will probably have more when I reread things and scrutinize every word, but these are the things that I immediately thought of when I read it.

Your dialogue-writing skills are very good. Your conversations flow naturally, and don’t seem forced or weird; they seem very believable.

The Raat part confused me. What is it, what does it do exactly? Why was what Redin did so horrible? Why did he loose control all of a sudden( he seems like a very strong-willed man, keeping Stephen out of his head and all)? The attack scene seemed a little rushed, but just a little.

The way we find out that Redin is an infiltrator is like being hit over the head, Goodkind- style (sorry about that). Any way you can make it a little more subtle? I kinda felt a little cheated when I wasn’t given the opportunity to figure out Redin’s affiliations for myself.

Finally, Selyse. She’s described as being a willowy woman, yet she swaggers out the door at the end. Is she secretly a pirate or a lumberjack? Because I totally didn’t get that:P

Thanks for the comments. =)

The Raat becomes clarified as I go along....I think I expand upon it in chapters 2 and 6 (you guys will get 6 eventually).

I'm not sure how I made it obvious he was an infiltrator--if it's the "It's harder not to kill him" line, it's meant to suggest more that he's disillusioned than an infiltrator. At least, he isn't in the Enlightened for that purpose.
But you'll find (in later Redin chapters) that he lies and lies all the time. To others and himself (and therefore, indirectly, the reader).

Selyse isn't a pirate/lumberjack...swagger just tells you that it's:
"1. to walk or strut with a defiant or insolent air."

so instead of saying "walked away defiantly" I can say "swaggered away" or something.

@Yellow: Thanks! I'll have to take a look at the link. Syr Treidin (i.e. Redin Ritys--an anagrammatic pseudonym hehe) is setting out in search of the cult's leader for vengeance. Would that be better (without the little bit in parentheses of course)?



edit:

This is the single passage that best describes how Raat works (chapter 6, from Marcus's PoV...and he's underground if that helps):

Quote

Marcus loosened his grip on the Raat, and lucid images dispersed all drowsiness. A torrent of information from nearby life: the mouse in the corner, a spider at another, a dog scurrying past overhead. For a moment, his minuscule presence, his sheer insignificance in his expanded scope of awareness, inundated. His comprehension swelled, surging to encompass its entirety, straining to remain stable, threads thinning—

Fastening his barriers, Marcus gritted his teeth. The Raat pounded against its restraints, fighting to steal him away, to drag his consciousness to the ends of the earth. He had seen countless fallen to its lure, enslaved to the power’s entropic nature. The weak of will, largely.

He slipped Raat into the constant link to his agent. Following it through the roar caused by hundreds of thousands of minds thinking, expressing, he punched through barriers and sidled into the Cahshim agent’s mind.

It's extremely versatile as far as magic goes, but I've worked hard to make sure it follows its own rules/laws to avoid deus ex machima situations.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 07 August 2009 - 06:14 PM

[Yellow]

Sixty, on Aug 7 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

@Yellow: Thanks! I'll have to take a look at the link. Syr Treidin (i.e. Redin Ritys--an anagrammatic pseudonym hehe) is setting out in search of the cult's leader for vengeance. Would that be better (without the little bit in parentheses of course)?

Definitely better, I think. Not quite as succinct, but not confusing.

[Sixty]

This is my latest rewrite. I keep feeling like it's inaccessible to a fresh reader (i.e. not you guys who've already read the first few chapters it's not your fault) but I want to make several things evident:
1.) The political situation (Enlightened vs. empire, with cult in the background as a 3rd faction)
2.) The motivation for each faction (still need to work on this for the Enlightened; I think I have it down for the cult and the empire is obvious)
3.) The motivation/predicament of the 2 most important characters (Syr/Redin & Selyse)

While making it interesting.

Quote

Despite fending off its former empire’s armies, the seceded Enlightened is beginning to crumble. Its messianic leader dies at the hands of a resurfacing cult and a traitorous lieutenant, flinging his daughter Selyse into power. As insurgents and sycophants alike begin to emerge, however, she discovers truths that call all her beliefs into question. Then the news arrives: the empire’s army, intent upon conquest, marches on the eastern border…

After faking his death, perennial traitor Syr Treidin sets out for the cult’s lair to consummate an old grudge. However, he is haunted by the past: his own quarry and the emperor both seem to stalk his movements. The empire’s army lies between him and his destination, and the Enlightened’s burgeoning forces dog his heels. In spite of her disillusionment, Selyse finds herself forced to lead that very crusade…even as the cult and its sorcerers plot a coup to seize the entire world by the throat.

What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by Sixty: 11 August 2009 - 09:03 PM

[Yellow]

Here's my thoughts on chapter 4.

The story seems to be moving along nicely, but I'm not convinced with how fast Selyse moves on from her father's death. If feels like only ten minutes between him dying and her telling Leo about it in a fairly deadpan manner, then discussing tactics. Would she not mourn?

A couple of niggling things stood out to me. It strikes me as a bit odd that a crossbow bolt can be described as lazy, or taking a long time to come to earth... unless it was fired from a long distance away or straight up into the air (crossbows are violent and fast, right?). But then for them to see him cranking the handle etc, this doesn't seem to fit as it seems he is quite close.

Also, I would like some description of the crowd's reaction to Selyse dealing with that rioter/assassin as she approached the city. It seems to happen in a vacuum. Does the crowd gasp/boo/scream/cheer/surge or doing anything at all? After all, hasn't the new Raetor just been attacked? There's no response to that event from any of the characters except Selyse.

Ok, overall... I know I've mentioned this before, so sorry for flogging a dead horse, but I think the flowery prose really is a bit of a barrier to me. "Delusions of invincibility were of no currency in its judgment" is one example. Not only is this very purple, I'm not even sure what it's saying. I think you should concentrate on this kind of stuff next time you do a rewrite. You throw in a lot of good stuff, which I've mentioned before as well, e.g. the image of Selyse "barelling downhill to the water's edge" is great, but you need to find a balance somewhere. Murder your darlings, and all that.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. The story is an interesting one (although I've always been slow to learn when it comes to political intrigue ), but I do think a merciless application of the red pen is needed with some of the language choices

PS - good end to the chapter.

[Sixty]

@Yellow:

Thanks for the comments. I've since done a rewrite from the version I sent you to address the grief issue (and that bit of purple prose haha). There's about an hour between her witnessing his death and her conversation with Leo.

With regard to the later bit with Leo--I've tried to portray is as her trying to suppress any grief and instead throw herself entirely into the role of Raetor (as opposed to daughter). That sort of continues throughout the rest of the book; I'm unsure how well I've portrayed it here.

I described the crossbowman as if he's from a distance...I suppose my mental image was that of a silhouette raising a crossbow, and you can see the left hand making a cranking motion. Dunno.

Thanks again. =)

I still have to get started on reading a couple others (Grimhilde's, yours if you send me any more...)

Did I ever send you chapter 5, Yellow?

[Yellow]

Nope, don't have it

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Sixty, on Aug 7 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

Grimhilde, on Aug 7 2009, 09:02 AM, said:

So, I’ve read the prologue and the first chapter and decided to write down my initial thoughts. I realized I’d read the prologue before, but I think it was better this time. It did the job of grabbing my attention and making me want read more, which I did:P
It also seems to introduce the story quite well, judging from what I’ve read so far.

I have a few comments regarding chapter one, will probably have more when I reread things and scrutinize every word, but these are the things that I immediately thought of when I read it.

Your dialogue-writing skills are very good. Your conversations flow naturally, and don’t seem forced or weird; they seem very believable.

The Raat part confused me. What is it, what does it do exactly? Why was what Redin did so horrible? Why did he loose control all of a sudden( he seems like a very strong-willed man, keeping Stephen out of his head and all)? The attack scene seemed a little rushed, but just a little.

The way we find out that Redin is an infiltrator is like being hit over the head, Goodkind- style (sorry about that). Any way you can make it a little more subtle? I kinda felt a little cheated when I wasn’t given the opportunity to figure out Redin’s affiliations for myself.

Finally, Selyse. She’s described as being a willowy woman, yet she swaggers out the door at the end. Is she secretly a pirate or a lumberjack? Because I totally didn’t get that:P

Thanks for the comments. =)

The Raat becomes clarified as I go along....I think I expand upon it in chapters 2 and 6 (you guys will get 6 eventually).

I'm not sure how I made it obvious he was an infiltrator--if it's the "It's harder not to kill him" line, it's meant to suggest more that he's disillusioned than an infiltrator. At least, he isn't in the Enlightened for that purpose.
But you'll find (in later Redin chapters) that he lies and lies all the time. To others and himself (and therefore, indirectly, the reader).

Selyse isn't a pirate/lumberjack...swagger just tells you that it's:
"1. to walk or strut with a defiant or insolent air."

so instead of saying "walked away defiantly" I can say "swaggered away" or something.

@Yellow: Thanks! I'll have to take a look at the link. Syr Treidin (i.e. Redin Ritys--an anagrammatic pseudonym hehe) is setting out in search of the cult's leader for vengeance. Would that be better (without the little bit in parentheses of course)?



edit:

This is the single passage that best describes how Raat works (chapter 6, from Marcus's PoV...and he's underground if that helps):

Quote

Marcus loosened his grip on the Raat, and lucid images dispersed all drowsiness. A torrent of information from nearby life: the mouse in the corner, a spider at another, a dog scurrying past overhead. For a moment, his minuscule presence, his sheer insignificance in his expanded scope of awareness, inundated. His comprehension swelled, surging to encompass its entirety, straining to remain stable, threads thinning—

Fastening his barriers, Marcus gritted his teeth. The Raat pounded against its restraints, fighting to steal him away, to drag his consciousness to the ends of the earth. He had seen countless fallen to its lure, enslaved to the power’s entropic nature. The weak of will, largely.

He slipped Raat into the constant link to his agent. Following it through the roar caused by hundreds of thousands of minds thinking, expressing, he punched through barriers and sidled into the Cahshim agent’s mind.

It's extremely versatile as far as magic goes, but I've worked hard to make sure it follows its own rules/laws to avoid deus ex machima situations.

It was more this part I think:

He leaned forward and hissed, “I’ve reason to believe that Elrik Debell has sent men to infiltrate my ranks.”
Redin’s breath caught. Was I somehow exposed? Fingers twitched toward the brace of knives strapped across his chest, poised to—

Yes, when you say it like that swagger works fine, but I don't think you're taking into account the different associations and connotations the word has. Women rarley swagger, unless, you know, they have very short hair and drive trucks for a living:P

But maybe it's entirely subjective and you should pay no mind to what I'm saying...the word just really jumped out at me, that's all.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hey Sixty seeing how Yellow and Gamet have only arrived to Chapter Five, would it be a problem to send it to me,too. I'l be very happy to continue commenting your work.

[Sixty]

What chapters do you need? I'm just reorienting myself after a very hectic weekend...

And I have a lot of work to catch up on before classes start.

And I still have to read stuff by Gamet and Grimhilde, which I need to get to at some point.