[Mezla PigDog]

I am about 1/3 of the way through A Game of Thrones. I think I read around these parts that A Song of Ice and Fire is an alright series but I don't pay enough attention and get him and Terry Goodkind confused. So far it is a story about obnoxious children with pet wolves, idiot nobility and paedo-porn.

Does it get better? Does it continue the theme of every chapter being from the perspective of a different character? I assume as the kids grow older, they might get a bit more depth but judging by the quality of current adults, I am not convinced. What are the redeeming features of the series? I am yet to find them and have to put the book down every couple of chapters to have a silent rant. If one more child cries into the fur of a pet wolf, I might have to stop reading completely.

Bestow me with your wisdom, Malazites.

[MTS]

Well, it has been a while since I've read ASOIAF, but I can definitely say that the chapter POVs do change fairly consistently. Regarding the children, however, in the later books as things happen to them, they do gain more depth I think, and become less obnoxious (Jon and Arya in particular, I think). The paedo-porn and the idiot nobility don't make an exit, sadly, but the nobility is interesting, and their idiocy is part of the story.

I think it gets better. As the story unfolds, the characters do become more mature, the plot thickens and you do get sucked into the world. I really enjoyed them. While not being totally top-notch fantasy like SE, it makes for an entertaining read. You will be waiting until you die for the story to finish, though.

[Sir Thursday]

I thought something similar when I first started the series - didn't really see what all the fuss was about. The thing is, Martin's strength is his ability to create believable and interesting character arcs, and that's not something that is going to bear fruit immediately. In later books, he also turns away from the initial impression he gives you of the Lannisters all being evil people and the Starks all being good and honourable and introduces some shades of grey into the equation, which I greatly appreciated. A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series by quite a wide margin, mainly because a ton of interesting stuff happens, all the characters' arcs move forward quite considerably, and it generally goes at a fast pace. So in summary, I suggest you give it a little more time.


Sir Thursday


EDIT: Also, A Game of Thrones picks up significantly in my eyes once they reach King's Landing. The politicking and general machinations that ensue (another one of the things that Martin writes very well) are entertaining to read about.

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 27 May 2009 - 12:58 PM

[teholbeddict]

Stick with it Mez, it really is a good series. As MTS stated the character perspective change does continue to happen at the beginning of every chapter. I think there are a few chapters in which it stays the same. The changing perspecitves is somethng that took me a while to get used to. I found I would begin to get quite involved in a certain story line or character only to have it bluntly end and pick up somewhere else in the next chapter. There are quite a few themes going on in the book and I suspect you will develop your favourites. As to the children crying into the fur of the wolves, it does continue to happen. However you will find that the children for the most part begin to change quite quickly. The one character I still can not stand in that series though would be Sansa, she has irritated the hell out of me from beginning to end.

STD is right, once they reach Kings Landing the book really takes off. You get more of the political intrigue and back biting. The book also begins to pick up speed and become more action filled. The initial set up of the family unit and their happy unsuspecting lives is really necessary as far as the rest of the series is concerned. Rest assured it does not remain a fairytale for the whole of the book.

GRRM is miles better than Goodkind, stick with the series and I promise you will no longer get them confused! Happy reading.

[Abyss]

It's a solid series. I don't hold it above Malaz, but i've enjoyed every book and the epic sweep of it, character development, toned down magic and complicated but comprehensible history make it a bit more original than a lot of stuff out there.

It's on my 'pre-order the hb' list with Malaz, Butcher's Dresden and Richard Morgan.


- Abyss, ...does not, however, stress about keeping the seventeen different guys named Aeron, Aegon, Aeris and Aeyyyyfonz straight...

[MTS]

Abyss, on May 27 2009, 11:30 PM, said:

It's a solid series. I don't hold it above Malaz, but i've enjoyed every book and the epic sweep of it, character development, toned down magic and complicated but comprehensible history make it a bit more original than a lot of stuff out there.

It's on my 'pre-order the hb' list with Malaz, Butcher's Dresden and Richard Morgan.


- Abyss, ...does not, however, stress about keeping the seventeen different guys named Aeron, Aegon, Aeris and Aeyyyyfonz straight...

That gets soooo annoying. STOP USING NAMES THAT START WITH 'AE'!!! It's even worse than Shimmer and Skinner (although that never really bothered me).

@TB, I hate Sansa too! God, I was so tempted to skip her chapters - she's so vapid and clueless and annoying, but her interaction with other characters made me have to read it. I really hope GRRM makes her grow up, but I don't see it happening.

[Abyss]

I think he's going somewhere interesting with Sansa. She's the perpetual victim and pawn but in the later books it seemed she was starting to learn her way around intrigue.

OVERREACHING SPOILERS PLOT SPECULATION SPOILER UP TO BOOK 4...
SPOILERS SPOILERS SIF SPOILERS

Spoiler

I realize it's horribly trite, perhaps even the least subtle element of the books, but even so i like how GRRM is setting up the Stark kids to be the uber soldier (Jon), wizard (Bran), assassin (Arya), politician (Sansa) and crazed barbarian warrior (Rickon) of the future stories. I like how the POV focuses shifted away from the Stark kids but seems likely to shift back to them in the future as events move along.
Along with Dany', they do seem to be at the centre of events.

I'm hoping GRRM isn't going the obvious route towards an alliance between Dany and the Stark kids with Jon and Dany marrying and living happily ever after etc etc. Given Tyrion's path in the sample chapters im still holding out for him bringing House Lannister over to Dany when she shows up with dragons and eunuch ninja armies and other fun stuff to beat the crap out of Westerthingyland.

- Abyss, ...figures GRRM wishes he had made the kids just a TINY bit older in bk 1...

[teholbeddict]

Well I certainly hope he is going somewhere with Sansa, because like MTS I could barely stand to read the portions of the book involving her. I don't think I can stomach another books worth of Sansa Stark the way she has appeared thus far!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The only good thing about Sansa is that we get great chapters with the Hound and Littlefinger. Apart from that, I agree with all of you.
Anyway, Mez, I think you should continue reading it. A sMTS said the best book is A Storm of Swords where lots of plottwist happen.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 27 May 2009 - 04:06 PM

[caladanbrood]

While the characters mature VERY quickly, the writing stays fairly similar. But they do get a rather brutal education in the real world fairly quickly, so it's not all "oh wolfie"... though certain characters continue to be annoying throughout.

[wolverine]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 27 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

While not being totally top-notch fantasy like SE, it makes for an entertaining read. You will be waiting until you die for the story to finish, though.

I think they are much better than the Malazan books (ducking curses and thrown objects). They are more the style of fantasy and writing that I like though. The characters are very deep and ambiguous, plus they seem real. The plot is rational, surprising, and intriguing and the writing is great. It has been a long time since I read the first book but I came into the series with no hype or expectations and after the first books I could not wait to get the next one. I do remember the children being annoyingly childish and petty to start off though. I do think some of their actions (Sansa, Joffrey, Arya, Rob, etc.) are helpful in showing their development/transformations. Too bad if you think the nobility are idiots, but if you have ventured much into the real world it is largely populated by idiots.

I don't know if some of you are complaining or just pointing out that the character POV shifts with each chapter, but if it is a complaint I don't see why. You will get back to each character some time in the book and there are many books that do a similar thing. The hallowed Erikson has multiple story lines that shift throughout the book, sometimes skipping certain characters for hundreds of pages. And then many of his books in succession are not even on the same continent, leaving certain important characters for several thousand pages with very little info about them (Tattersail, Ganoes anyone?).

This post has been edited by wolverine: 27 May 2009 - 04:56 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

caladanbrood, on May 27 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

While the characters mature VERY quickly, the writing stays fairly similar. But they do get a rather brutal education in the real world fairly quickly, so it's not all "oh wolfie"... though certain characters continue to be annoying throughout.

I am not a fan of the writing style. It is very blunt and pretty boring. It feels like reading a childrens book so far.

wolverine, on May 27 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Too bad if you think the nobility are idiots, but if you have ventured much into the real world it is largely populated by idiots.

I don't venture into the real world if I can help it. You can never tell when a petulant child with a giant wolf might have it in for you.

Anyhoo, you have all convinced me to forge ahead! I doubt I will get the next book in the series if it doesn't dramatically improve but watch this space! I particularly look forward to the brutalisation of the children. Annoying little brats.

[MTS]

wolverine, on May 28 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 27 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

While not being totally top-notch fantasy like SE, it makes for an entertaining read. You will be waiting until you die for the story to finish, though.

I think they are much better than the Malazan books (ducking curses and thrown objects). They are more the style of fantasy and writing that I like though. The characters are very deep and ambiguous, plus they seem real. The plot is rational, surprising, and intriguing and the writing is great. It has been a long time since I read the first book but I came into the series with no hype or expectations and after the first books I could not wait to get the next one. I do remember the children being annoyingly childish and petty to start off though. I do think some of their actions (Sansa, Joffrey, Arya, Rob, etc.) are helpful in showing their development/transformations. Too bad if you think the nobility are idiots, but if you have ventured much into the real world it is largely populated by idiots.

I don't know if some of you are complaining or just pointing out that the character POV shifts with each chapter, but if it is a complaint I don't see why. You will get back to each character some time in the book and there are many books that do a similar thing. The hallowed Erikson has multiple story lines that shift throughout the book, sometimes skipping certain characters for hundreds of pages. And then many of his books in succession are not even on the same continent, leaving certain important characters for several thousand pages with very little info about them (Tattersail, Ganoes anyone?).

Don't worry, you're Angry Beavers avatar salvages your reputation

I do venture into the real world, and yes I realise most people are idiots - it wasn't a complaint, it was merely a statement. Eddard is a prime example of blind idiocy. Noble, but an idiot nonetheless. The POV bit wasn't a complaint either - I prefer it, in fact, as in this setting it allows a broader, more encompassing storyline and greater characterisation. What doesn't make it top-notch fantasy (in my opinion), is the writing style. Like Mez said, you feel as if you're reading a children's book sometimes, and there isn't all that much subtlety (leave that to the plot occasionally, but anyway).

[caladanbrood]

Mezla PigDog, on May 27 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

caladanbrood, on May 27 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

While the characters mature VERY quickly, the writing stays fairly similar. But they do get a rather brutal education in the real world fairly quickly, so it's not all "oh wolfie"... though certain characters continue to be annoying throughout.

I am not a fan of the writing style. It is very blunt and pretty boring. It feels like reading a childrens book so far.

wolverine, on May 27 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Too bad if you think the nobility are idiots, but if you have ventured much into the real world it is largely populated by idiots.

I don't venture into the real world if I can help it. You can never tell when a petulant child with a giant wolf might have it in for you.

Anyhoo, you have all convinced me to forge ahead! I doubt I will get the next book in the series if it doesn't dramatically improve but watch this space! I particularly look forward to the brutalisation of the children. Annoying little brats.

It's worth reading the first three at least

[wolverine]

caladanbrood, on May 27 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

It's worth reading the first three at least

I would agree with your implication that the 4th book is less worthy reading than the first 3, but I would add that it is still way better than TtH (imo). (man this message board has sweet emoticons!)

This post has been edited by wolverine: 27 May 2009 - 08:16 PM

[Illuyankas]

Wait.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait.

Just wait.

You're saying that A Feast For Crows was BETTER than Toll the Hounds? Are you high? When did you get struck on the head? Because if it was recently we might be able to cure you. Otherwise your opinion is provably wrong.

[polishgenius]

Toll the Hounds pretty much suffered from all the same problems as Feast, except with a better ending. But with the added downside of most of the book being setup... for a different book. Although I disagree, it\'s not that much of a stretch of opinion.


As for Sansa, I disliked her at first but (minor series spoiler)

Spoiler

hers were among my favourite chapters in Feast.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 27 May 2009 - 11:00 PM

[Sixty]

It could just be me, but I actually liked most of TtH. The only PoV's I didn't like during the setup/rising action was the the old mage dude and the little kid. The rest were at least bearable; Karsa PoV's were great as always; even Cutter/Crokus was okay (esp. at the beginning, even if that tapers off until he

Spoiler

owns that one bitch who killed...was it Murillio? It's been a while)

).

AFFC...I actually liked Sansa's chapters like you. But that and Arya's were the only one I was really interested in. No Tyrion and Dany kinda ruined it.

[lord of tragedy]

polish equating tth with afoc is faceitous and simplistic. they couldn't be more dissimilar.
for a start SE is skinny. grrm is fat.

[Sixty]

lord of tragedy, on May 27 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

polish equating tth with afoc is faceitous and simplistic. they couldn't be more dissimilar.
for a start SE is skinny. grrm is fat.

But GRRM has the beard to compensate.

(Playing devil's advocate here)